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Posted by Poetry on 01/13

I think some re-organization is necessary among the imms. Ive heard too much from too many imms, and imms alts, about the stupid stubborn coders, and the way they cause big bottlenecks in getting things done. I think that fact none of the coders (that have power) pkill is STUPID.. I think there are huge imbalances that are STUPID. Why is it that I can kill a sniper without effort by stoneskin and inspire? If you are a sniper, and you hate this... please append support. Why is it that the random factor in magic sink is HUGE? much bigger than the mind factor? Why do we have attacks like WFW and PARAbackstab that are luck driven but almost sure killers when they go off? Why is that fun? Why can strmind damagecap? Whats the deal with having so much damage eq in the game, that a 30str mage can have more DAMAGEROLL than a 100str fighter? Why is it that certain character types can destroy other character types, even despite huge experience gaps? Whats the deal with augment? TOO POWERFUL. Why would I make a Lima character? Look at a str mage.... since hitroll doesnt really matter on stunned.. dont you dare tell me otherwise.. I have seen 16 hittroll damagecap on stunned.... strength is in general overpowered.... it was balanced for the fighter type, but PEOPLE ARE CLEVER! more so than imms obviously they combine spells or augment with it, and poof! a super character. Name ONE successful fighter-type... when I mean successful, I mean like wins more than he loses... there are none. Name ONE successful sniper-type... there are none. WHY do we have a healer that we can ask heal.. then rent out, then ask again, then rent, then ask heal again, then rent out, then ask heal again and in the end, heal 800 eight-hundred 800 hps? why is that? Why when people mention thesethings to imms, the answers are "Sorry too busy working on skilltrees." Why do so many NON-coder imms, that actually do pkill a little, agree with MOST my points? If you are an imm thats reading this, and you agree, like you say you do in tells, and you dont append support, then you lose me as a friend... as a mortal, thats the worst I could threaten. Im so frustrated with all of you. I think you are all cases for psychological study. I think you are damaging legend. You are losing experienced players that care about code as much as they care about socializing. I think that a lot of these changes would take 5 mins to code.. I dont believe the BS about the skill trees taking all your time and I think that adding new skills to the crazy imbalance that exsists now is bad judgement. I hate this statement "Everything will fixed in the skill trees". I dont believe that the luck factor in magic sink will be reduced in skill trees, and I dont believe damage and hit eq will be removed. I asked so many imms about the damage eq and hit eq, and NO ONE agrees that its ok for a 30str mage to have more damageroll than 100 str gives you. Yet I hear this "haha try to convince Rufus of that!" Bah, whatever. If you agree with anything then append support. If you are one of those people that like to find one exception and use it to discredit the whole observation, then you will look like idiots. Keep in mind that experienced players dont like to make cliche characters that abuse code imbalances... if me, Manticore, and Sammael made STR augmentors, this problem would be more obvious. Just cause Im using 3 years of pkill experience and resourcefulness to bridge a HUGE gap in character strengths in some cases doesnt mean that the gap is ok. I really hope I made a dent your brain. You guys bug me, a lot. It sucks that all these pyschological cases have control over the game I like to play. Im losing my mind out of frustration. Poetry

From: StrongDruid Saturday, January 08, 11:42AM "If you agree with me, append your support". What if one doesn't? Does it automatically make one an idiot Poetry? Is that what you are saying? I tried to ask you that before I posted, but you weren't accepting tells then. Well I do disagree with you on one point at least, and if that makes me an idiot in your eyes, then be it. Appearently, one of the people you refer to in your post already considers me one, and frankly, I couldn't care less :P I don't think augment is overpowered at all. I am a str augmentor, and I do not spam - and btw I never did spam, even before gradual stats were introduced! - and I can't see how this character can be found overpowered at all! And btw, I don't pkill either, and maybe that's all that matters to you -shrug- I myself found spamming augmentors wrong -in pkill or otherwise - but if one sacrifices other things to be able to augment without spamming, I think it's worth a reward and encouragement, not bitching. Maybe it's finding that one exception that automatically would make me an idiot in your eyes. Or maybe I just suck, as one of the colleagues you refer to loves to say, if somebody chooses to do things in another way that -he- finds best. Whatever -shrug- As for Rufus, he doesn't need me - or anyone else - to defend him :P. But my personal opinion is that he's one of the greatest assets to this mud. And I have had arguments - in some character - with practically every immortal on this mud, Rufus included, so don't tell me I'm sucking up :P But I have just as much right to my own opinion as you have to yours Poetry. Or is the freedom of speech only for a few chosen ones? :P StrongDruid

From: Zalbag Saturday, January 08, 12:21PM well i have to say i constantly fight sammael in a lame attempt to even come considerably close to beat him. im a dex mage and he's a str mage. i have 20 more mind than him and his sink eats up everything of mine. it took at least 3-4 fights for me to find a working special on him. i was hardheaded and thought i just sucked but there is some sort of imbalance in that situation. i know sammael is a great pkiller and im average at best but taking that many fights to find a special to use and stand a chance before getting bashed to death is kinda weird.

From: Sammael Saturday, January 08, 12:20PM I don't think its all she cares about, pk that is, but its a major point of the mud whether you do it or not, and it doesn't make it any less important of a problem. Augmenters, if you don't know, are INSANE, spam or not, in pk. Your basicly fighting someone with 1300-1700 hp, depending on the person your fighting. That is a lot of hp for anyone to take, regardless of how good you are. Thats where it becomes character based and not skill based. If your character is just flat out better because of system flaws...well, its hard to make those up. I agree with poetry in almost all her points. While I don't think imms are inherently stupid, I think a few could definatly use a nice kick in the ass. But so could a lot of mortals, including me. Its all give an take, and at the current time, I don't think imms are giving enough. I personally feel ignored most of the time. In the last 2 months, how many changes have went in? Maybe 10, if your lucky. Why? Holidays? I personally don't understand it, but its pretty weak. Housing has managed, in my opinion, to wreck havok on pk as it is. We don't need other factors, such as unbalanced characters, to kill it more. Thats just my opinion, which I'm SURE you won't agree with. -Sammael, The Destroyer of Hope

From: Poetry Saturday, January 08, 12:27PM get chalice holster drink chalice fill chalice waterskin put chalice holster People like StrongDruid that dont know how to make characters really annoy me. The make poor excuses of a character... then decide based on that, that that character type is not overpowered. If you dont have the experience to make a good character, then your option get chalice holster drink chalice fill chalice waterskin put chalice holster is worth ZERO. No one listens to people that dont make good characters about balance issues. If your str augmentor was well made people would care a little about your opinion. Rufus is an asset to the mud when he is in that coding "mood Whatever, People like Strongdruid that make arguements with no experience or basis behind it, are truely idiots in my mind Poetry

From: Tritoch Saturday, January 08, 12:27PM every time i see a post made by a bitter pkiller i die laughing because they are pretty much allways right, and someone allways makes some assinine append (much like this one) saying why they are wrong they dont give any reasons they just automatically go to "well Mr pkiller i guess im stupid if i dont agree" and its raaaalllly pathetic and if poetry is right or not really doesnt matter fact is, everyone i know has left the mud complaining about similar things to what poetry said and umm like 50,000 frenchmen cant be wrong yanno? and, i totally forgot where i was trying to go with this append but basically, poetry is damn right, and maybe people should look around at the things that are driving everyone away instead of getting instantly defensive.... btw i dont want to hear one smart ass (and pathetically defensive in denia denial mother freakin append about how you cant read my posts cause i dont punctuate -glare danar- oh and, i have a sniper pkiller right now and my god its sick, they really cant do anything against anyone (least not for those of us not as good as craven :P) Tritoch-- some looser who is about to bail on legend P.S. snipers suck, do something damnit!

From: Beam Saturday, January 08, 12:51PM What sucks is: How many years have skilltrees been being worked on? How long has it been used as an excuse to make changes? How often does an imm listen to a suggestion and make a little tweak? Hardly ever, now if you go to a mud like duris, they make changes about once a week and actually because of mortal suggestions. There has been some decent imms on legend that were nice, Parrilyn for instance, but most of them get attitudes. 50k frenchmen can't be wrong, haha, I like that. As far as Rufus' goes, I really don't have any problem with him, but the mud went downhill after Ptah had to take hands off approach, this isn't saying bad stuff against Rufus, anyone would have a hard time replacing Ptah. It seems the coders stick there heads in the sand though, balancing doesn't take a lot of time, its small things like say, bump the effectiveness on magic sink 50 percent, or reduce damage on kick by 10 poi 10 points, little things you know, but no, instead we get skill trees are being worked on excuse for 3 years. That and simply ignoring what mortals suggest, with excuses like mortals w will ruin the mud if we listen to their suggestions. It's sickening, the attitudes you see around here. Oh and please some morts append your support for the imms without giving a any good excuses for them, I love to see blind support. If they ever get the mud fixed I'll play again, but until then I'll play D Duris mudmail me if you want some help starting a char there, haha.

From: StrongDruid Saturday, January 08, 12:59PM Well Poetry's append only proves my point. If you don't agree with her, you're an idiot. Period. End of discussion. -shrug- fine with me, and I will not waste more energy on that quarrel. But if you think declaring people that don't agree with you idiots because of that, that I can only hope you're wrong.

From: StrongDruid Saturday, January 08, 01:14PM Sorry, it should have read: If you really believe that declaring people idiots just because they don't agree with you will strengthen your case, then I can only hope you're wrong. -shrug- And you're not the only one with experience on this mud, there are others here with just as much or more experience then you who -gasp- do not agree with you either. But by all means, keep calling me an idiot if it makes you feel better :P

From: Rufus Saturday, January 08, 02:40PM Suppose I'd be 'hiding my head in the sand' if I were to ignore this post. Let me first give a bit of a timeline... I read this post, was angry, a slight bit upset, so I logged out, took some time to mull over it, and now I'm going to reply -- hopefully even-headedly. Poetry's right in most cases. There are some vast imbalances in the system. However saying '5 minutes to fix them' is a bit of an understatement. Most of the problems now are because of '5 minute balance fixes.' Let's take augment, just for example. There was once a good movement toward augment being made a bit more powerful because it wasn't really useful when compared to surgery, etc. So we made a slight adjustment with the factor that it should be a relatively smooth scale over the amount of spirit one has. It was indeed only about a 15 minute fix (Ea! coded that one, so I'm not 100% sure of the timeline involved) but it did create a relatively strong imbalance in pkill. But I'm not here to make excuses. I'm not here to say 'skilltrees has been keeping me too busy.' (in all reality, RL work has been keeping me horribly busy, along with figuring out plans for a wedding and whatnot, I don't have nearly as much time as I'd like). I'll now take Poetry's post, point by point: : Why is it that the random factor in magic sink is HUGE? Good question. It's been probably 6 months or so since I've looked at the code. Originally magic sink was mostly cast-level based. So based on the castor (not the person having the sink on themselves), it got to be awefully powerful. At that time, strength fighters were quite the dish and many were complaining that it was ridiculous to have a 20mind fighter who could resist magic as well as a 100mind mage. There exists now, in the formulas, variables based on the person's mind as well as cast level, etc. Perhaps the change wasn't great enough. Surely worth looking into. Any suggestions for modifications are welcome. : Whats the deal with having so much damage eq in the game, that a : 30 str mage can have more DAMAGEROLL than a 100str fighter? Could go one of two ways with this. More damage based on strength, or we could eliminate a great deal of the damroll in the game (or at least tone it down). There's an assumption in here though that needs to be addressed. Why isn't the 100str fighter you're comparing the 30str mage to wearing any damroll gear? Surely some, at least, would be to his(her) advantage to do so. But that assumption aside, there's some problems to be considered (if not addresssed). If we change the damroll gear, do we leave old EQ in the game, or change pfiles? If we alter the amount of damroll based on strength, will it cause strength fighters to be too powerful (the current damroll-based-on-strength was toned down once before due to that argument). : Why is it that certain character types can destroy other character : types even despite the huge experience gaps? General balance questions like these are difficult to answer, but it's mainly because we don't have ways of limiting certain factors of characters. Currently everyone gets all 3 levels of fighting skills and dodge (available to every hometown), which puts them all on even-footing as far as as the 'warrior' element of a character. Which means that the balance between character 'classes' lies solely on their ability to do things other than just fight. Now if we were to make thieves the equivalent of mages as far as power goes, not only would we have to add about 80 skills, imagine someone that could do both magic and have a relative amount of thieving ability. The chance for an imbalance is rather large in even contemplating that. However, Poetry is right, even given a somewhat relatively weaker character, an experienced pkiller should, almost always, be able to win a fight. : What's the deal with augment? TOO POWERFUL. Before I can address this, I need to know how it's too powerful. Are 100 spirit augmentors too powerful? Or does the scale that allows decent poultices at 60 spi too powerful? Does it not cost enough, manawise? Does it take too little time? : ... since hitroll doesn't reall matter on stunned.. dont you dare : tell me otherwise.. It does matter, but just a bit. Probably not so you'd notice. I was discussing this with Zandy the other day and we were laughing about how someone can hit 4/11 times on a stunned victim, but all that aside, you're right and that formula probably needs to be looked at. : Strength is overpowered.... it was balanced for the fighter type, : but PEOPLE ARE CLEVER! Again this goes back to the inability for us to limit what fighting skills one can get. The answer to the balance problem on this one is held up in the ability for a mage to also be as good a fighter as a pure fighter. As soon as we can limit the fight skills a person can get, this will be less of an issue... maybe not solved, but less, in the least. (continued in next append)

From: Hastur Saturday, January 08, 03:25PM I hate to say this, but I actually agree with Poetry -wince- I think, in solving problems on here, we need to take a "fix what's here already, not add things to balance." The more skills/code/whatever you add to balance, there's that many more factors you have to add in when balancing. -Hastur

From: Brede Saturday, January 08, 03:13PM First off, I'd just like to say that most immorts on this mud could learn something from Rufus. In my experience over the last 3.5 years here, he head been by far, the most professional, unbiased and fair immort that I have dealed with. Just my 2 cents on that. As far as Poetry's points go, I'd agree with most every one of them. I have retired a few pkillers myself, though not the most active ones, I'd call myself an experienced pkiller. Mobkill aside, because the imbalances there aren't as profound. Pkill blanace is rarely determined with who you group with, its a 1 on 1 comparison in most every case. Thus it is a very good way to balance characters. (ones that fight solo!) The other facet is anything that is adjusted in the code for pk balance could have some effect on mobkill too, but rarely does it stand out as it does in pk. The damroll issue is probably the most blatent one that needs to be addressed next to augment in my mind. I have had a dex mage with nearly 30 damroll. I've had a str fighter with about 42 damroll. (3 of the +6 items out there included) Pkilled with both, and I'd say the dex character dealt more damage just from attacks. Dex hits often, str doesn't, and when you throw the damroll in with high dex and spells, it can be nasty. On the other hand, no one really misses when the opponent is stunned, no matter what type of character you are. My suggestion is that either the damroll items in the game go up in rent by about 25% (including ones in pfiles), or the damroll on the items be reduced from +6 to maybe +4ish. I've had a high 60 damroll character too, as well as a 50ish dam 40ish hit character, and they are simply nasty in mobkill, in any type of group. There isn't enough hitroll eq in the game that it needs to suffer the same reduction in effectiveness/value that the damroll eq does... yet. As for augment, I really like the idea that you can make a character that do it at 60 stat. My suggestion here is an 80 stat "advanced augment" skil that will give augment healing ability as it has now (about 1hp for 1 stat point) and the 60 stat skill gives about half that healing, for the same amount of mana. Puts my 680hp 60dex/mind/spr character out of work, but would you honestly want to fight a half mage with -100 ac, 680 hitpoints, 20something damroll, and another 1500 hits worth of herbs? The reason I quote so many of my own characters is that I usually build my character to best exploit some unbalance that I see. It gives me more powerful characters quite simply. While this is a big part of character selection and generation and shouldn't be removed (variety that is) it does help me locate imbalances better than some. Enough rambling. Brede

From: Rufus Saturday, January 08, 03:05PM : Name ONE successful fighter-type... Name ONE successful sniper-type... Sorry, can't do either. Even though it may not be readily apparent, I do recognize there are vast shortcomings in the pkill balance arena. Of course if I were asked to name one successful PK char at all, I'd be hard pressed to come up with one. It's sadly true I'm not in touch with the people on the mud as I once was. That requires time I don't have. : I think that a lot of these changes would take 5 minutes to code... Probably. The thing that takes time is coming up with the right solution. We've been nailed to the wall many times for making a decision about balance, implementing it, only to have people leave that very week (before we really have a chance to evaluate its effectiveness). : I don't believe the BS about the skill trees taking all your time : and I think adding new skills to the crazy imbalance that exists : now is bad judgement. Skilltrees takes a long time, not because it's just merely adding new skills to the crazy imbalance, but because it's rewriting 99% of all the skills in the game. It will come with its own set of imbalances that will need to be worked out in time. Some if its design is to make figuring out and correcting those imbalances far easier than it is currently. : I hate this statement "Everything will fixed in the skill trees". One point where we do agree wholeheartedly. Skilltrees will likely show us exactly where those imbalances are, and give us a chance to really fix them properly. But some will likely still remain. : ... and no one agrees that its ok for a 30str mage to have more : damageroll than 100 str gives you. Yet I hear this "haha try to : convince Rufus of that!" Yup, this argument has come up before on the godlist, and it personal discussions. Likely no, you aren't going to convince me personally of that, but that doesn't mean it won't get implemented. Right now, and for the forseeable future, I have no real control over what items go into the game, what changes are made to items in the game. I have input, but I'm far from the final say. If the design staff as a whole wants to implement a different scale for damage based on strength, then I'm all for it. My primary argument currently is that it will only augment the problem (no pun intended) of strength/ other class imbalances. Str mages will be even more powerful, which, it seems, Poetry concedes is a relatively large problem. : I really hope I made a dent your brain. Actually you did. I am really dismayed at how much time I don't get to spend PKilling, playing, or even talking to players about what's bugging them. For about the last year or so I've primarily been working off the TODO list for coders, working on my 'assignments' and getting input from the imm staff (who are, though many of you deny, really good at bringing input from players to the table when balance issues are being discussed). I think I will make a concentrated effort to be a bit more in touch with the playerbase. Now, as much as I don't appreciate being called a 'psychological case,' I will heartily accept that for now. It's insane for me to be trying to meet deadlines at work (which has been consuming about 80% of my time lately--ask my fiance), getting things ready for the machine move (more on this briefly) and working on new memory handling techniques and whatnot for the MUD's code base. Notice I didn't mention skilltrees. I made a vast amount of progress on skilltrees in november and early december, but things have gotten in my way and I've been working on the new mud machine and RL work for the most part. With any luck it'll be ready to implement by the MUD's birthday, but with things the way they are, there's no guarantee of that. Frankly, I'd like to get rid of all these balance issues. I'd like to have skilltrees done and ready to go. Have all the crashing bugs worked out, have new area parsers, building tools, etc done. I'd like to have these done because I'm ready to move on to other things, ready to branch out from Legend and do my own thing for a while. In short reply to Beam: I've never intended, nor do I want to, take the place of Ptah. He had an elegance to his ability to deal with players that I can't even come close to. It's just in his nature, and his position is one that I sorely miss, if not for its being able to shield me from having to write large explanations such as this. As far as 'skilltrees being worked on for 3 years' its quite a misnomer. It's been worked on about 4 separate times. When I started it, I mostly started anew, using what I had from the prior skilltrees code-bases as a background and guide. All in all, though, it's really a massive piece of code, probably the second largest code project I've ever tackled. In all hopes I haven't 'made an idiot' of myself, in Poetry's terms. I think Poetry has some good points and ones we should be looking toward fixing. I've been reluctant to try, mainly because my idea of 'balance' is sometimes quite far off from a great deal of players such as Poetry. Sometimes I prefer the 'damned if you don't' option to the 'damned if you do' as most of the fixes I would make to address the above points would be as unpopular as the points themselves are now. I'm really hoping Poetry turns in an application for the next round of immorting. I'd venture to guess I would vote a very strong yes. We need more opinions like this to stir up the 'old school' views of those like myself. -Ruf

From: Beam Saturday, January 08, 03:43PM Just have a couple quick things to add: I agree quick fixes can be bad, but I would say that balancing is an ongoing thing, dont be afraid to make a change but say that it isnt set in stone, that it will continue to be tweaked till it is gotten right. Try things out see how they work and readjust. What I tend to see, is changes happening very slowly and then not getting tweaked anymore, maybe there should be an imm just in charge of balance. of balance. Secondly, as far as damroll eq goes, I think Rufus brings up a major point in the argument, why doesnt this 100 str fighter have any +damroll eq, its stupid not too. I like damroll eq myself, whether or not its in balance. If str eq is too high rent, then str fighter is making poor choices about what to rent when he doesn't use the damroll eq. What I find interesting is how str weapons tend to miss a lot more, one of the reasons I made a con fighter that used damroll eq, they just land more consistent.

From: Fraegis Saturday, January 08, 05:00PM Amazing, I agree with the points Poetry makes. They are probably correct. But you miss one point, Poetry. Politeness. You know the reason a lot of people left the mud, you say. I do too, but it is not the same reason as you, I think. They left because of bad manners. Like people calling those not agreeing with them idiots. By being rude to everyone who dared voice an opinion that differed from theirs. Strongdruid can't make a good character? So what? I know your definition of good in this case, but I think a good character is a character that you have fun playing. And being called idiot because you disagree with someone isn't what most people think of as fun. Your arguments were valid, and you might be right on the points you mention. But try to be civil about it? Fraegis

From: Zaba Saturday, January 08, 05:28PM The points brought up in this post have really made me think about the unbalanced system, i think that to balance the system to the perfection would be a damn near impossible task, but even to work on it would be a vast improvement, i do not place 'blame' on anyone, but i think the imms are overwhelmed by the amount of work brought to them, the mortals have to help them so that we can fix the problems we encounter daily. Very rarely do i log on and see an intelligent conversation about what we should fix, all i see is just constant bickering and complaining. So in short what i am trying to say is that both the immortals and mortals must partake in the balancing of this mud -Zaba

From: Chunk Saturday, January 08, 05:41PM Well im glad someone finally had the guts to post what Poetry just did. I know i have been thinking the same on almost all of the points made above. But fixing the problems with one main coder is just gunna take some time and more than likely also a few different things added before time. Pkill has always been an "inbalancing" conversation between us and the immorts. We as experienced pkillers find problems in balance way before an any immortal can find it. As for augment and str fighters.. what can i say other than repeat what has been mentioned.. its true they are more than a bit overpowered. But if you hadn't noticed most of us shun making such a character when thinking of its inbalance. I think that's the best way to show we are against a certain character type is to just simply not make any of them til they tweak them. A note on skilltrees: i personally could care less when they finally come in.. i rather see little changes here and there fixed then more time spent on skilltrees, even if they "fix most of the problems". To balance the mud we as mortals need to put our suggestions upon the immortals like we have been and try to just hang in there while they decide whether or not to fix things or to discuss it til we just give up on the idea. But we as the mud in whole need to learn that things just dont get fixed just like that.. things do take time even if it is "5 minutes". Problems always arise when something goes in which brings in more time spent on fixing the same thing yet again. I would like to end this with a little pun and a few quotes heh "I have a dream.. a dream that one day immortals and mortals will see eye to eye... we will agree on what needs to be fixed and what can be put off for a time... I have a dream that one day mortals wont need to complain or try to suggest changes because immortals already are working on them without any hints or suggestions... One day it will come.. yes indeed it will..." Chunky

From: Poetry Saturday, January 08, 05:37PM :Secondly, as far as damroll eq goes, I think Rufus brings up a major :point in the argument, why doesnt this 100 str fighter have any +damroll :eq, its stupid not too. With no damageroll eq, a fighter has 21 damageroll... a mage has about 0.. or maybe up to 3. 21 compared to 3 is the difference that we need (IMHO). This makes a str fighter really do a lot more damage than the mage. Add +24 in damage eq and you get 27 damageroll mage compared to a 44 damageroll fighter. 27 to 44 is not as big a difference... 21 damageroll bonus that str gets becomes "diluted" by adding 24 damageroll to both sides. My point was that a mage could wear eq that gives more bonus at 30 str, than someone that is truly strong at 100str Another arguement against damageroll eq, is that we are getting so close to the damagecap already, that all damage eq does is allow a str mage to damagecap right next to a strdex... I would favor DOUBLING the rent on damage and hit eq. Or halving the bonus these items give. There are held items that give +6 damageroll, and ones that give +3 damageroll for almost the same rent... The +3 ones are more inspec (once again IMHO) than the +6 ones. As far as my tone... Im pissed and frustrated. When people get frustrated, I am understanding of the anger and lack of politness in their tone. Since I extend that to people, I expect them to extend it to me. My apologies to coders for calling them pyschological cases for study.. but what the hell, Im pissed and this is how I react. It doesnt make my points invalid. As to StrongDruid, my point is that you were very quick to disagree with me on a point, that Rufus himself agreed with me on. Imagine that I expressed some lukewarm uneducated opinion on something that you knew and cared ALOT about... If you dont trust me, then trust the people that agreed with me... Your STR druid is obviously not very well made. And I would never ever supress your "freedom of speech". As you could see by my vocal and psychotic post, I am a big advocate for this right. Hm, trying to remember stuff... oh yeah. LOW spirit augmenting is what I was talking about. Low spirit augmenting should (once again IMHO) only a little better than cure crit. If you go up to 80 or more spirit, then it should heal more like it does now. BUt whatever, if I started expressing ideas on how to get stuff fixed I could post forever. If I thought that I would be allowed to tweek and balance the code, I might apply too for immship. Maybe this bit of attention to the things that were causing the loss of my mind will cause me to turn my tells and channels back on. Nah... Poetry

From: Shine Saturday, January 08, 06:16PM Several months ago half of pkillers were snipers. Now half of pkillers are mages (maybe more).\ Something is bad, that's true. I'm not able to help, because my pkillers suck. Poetry wrote good things.. I agree. -Shine

From: Beam Saturday, January 08, 11:58PM Well one thing to think about: Augmenters have always been imbalanced, but in the olden days, haha, in the olden days we thought people that ran and healed were twinks. It all depended on who you were fighting though. Some people you knew would pull out all the stops and try to loot you if they could, but augmenting just wasn't part of it. If you ask me winning by augmenting is cheesy, how bout we just not use it in pkill? Make augmenter a bad word, least in the pkill sense. It is to me already, it's like I would tell ppl with my fighter char if you want to duel then don't blind me, because we know who will win that fight. If you want a war ok, a duel ok, just lets get straight which. Augmenting is pretty cool for doing zones, no need to take it out of the game. If you catch someone augmenting on you junk their eq. Mob rule, haha. Also 60 spirit is a lot of stat points, I don't think its that out of balance.

From: Infidel Sunday, January 09, 01:32AM Yeah, Sharpe went on an on about my cheesy use of a single poultice I used in a fight that wasn't even declared a duel.. I find it pretty sad that people will go to great lengths to win these days, using mobs to heal, prepping with cured fish and preserved poultices. Mmm, now with no-spam I guess there's no reason that augmenting would be cheesy considering the stats you give up but going beyond hunt range in a duel.. -shake- I still wouldn't use an augmenter though, mostly cos I'm too lazy to collect herbs but also cos I don't like multi-part fights.

From: Kaeos Sunday, January 09, 02:06AM Hmm seems only right for me to append to this post. I would just like to point out that I'm not very smart so be nice when you tease me after =P. Okay, for those of you who don't know me, I'm a relatively crappy pkiller that augments. I'm a sniper type char, or will be anyway as soon as i replace my scrapped poet's ring =P First I would like to say that strength is a great stat to have...bash is way cool as it renders the opponent helpless for 2 rounds while the basher kicks the living crap outa the person just sitting there. I would like to note that I have fairly little strength and hp for that matter. When I get bashed, i'm pretty much a goner from that one round. Say the guy Rips and Rips...i'm at almost nasty and i probably only got a crappy ass backstab in for 50 and my sitting hit rounds at probably at the most a massacre. Now, blame it on the char, but I gotta heal some way. In the pkill environment today, if you don't heal, you don't win. 3rd circle cause mages have there cure crits. You may say that they are no way better than augment, but put it this way. Augment costs around 40 mana to do, plus you need to carry a crap load of herbs, plus you gotta have 60 spirit, and you get healed around 55 hps. Cure crit on the other hand, only needs 40 spirit, and depending on your mind, get about a little more than 1hp for every mana spent char and cure crit has relatively little lag time. On the flip side thoug h, augment can be thought of as a weak way to win, but by having a character with as little hp as me, the only choice I would have to go is to create roots, which are not that great for healing I have to go, i'll append more later, but i just had to give my 2 cents. I'll probably get knocked down by many good reasons why augment is so cheat, but oh well. Oh yeah, if you wanna talk cheat, how about those that make a crap load of charmies to kill an opponent. Nothing like going against 500 hp skeletons and 3 saebels that do 40-50 damage around. -shrug- Kaeos

From: Shinran Sunday, January 09, 03:28AM Okay my turn to say something here.....i also agree with Poetry on many points that she has made in her original post. I also have to agree with Kaeos on his post. In pkill today I have seen many imbalances and i think it would be almost impossible to balance out everything in pkill so poeple won't whine anymore about how this character was overpowered and that.... The fact is that if poeple were to change their attitudes about pkill and respect eachother a bit more....many of these imbalances will not really matter. I rather lose to a gracious winner or win over a congratulating loser anyday over a whining pkiller So stop getting all fed up about the flaws of this game because chances are most of them will not get fixed and that the road to make this MUD better does not start with pointing out flaws but with the attitudes of the people that play the game these days. Shinran

From: Infernal Sunday, January 09, 03:34AM ok snipers suck cause they cant heal, period when grad stats came in snipers went out I would like to see magic sink be more affective at high minds though 3rd circle mages are a pain to make, another reason they should be better then a pure fighter one way to help them out and the hometown of crapy lima is to give them a good healing skill that dosent need a lot of mind and spi that way in order to get that good healing skill you have to give up augment, and magic, might make lima a good place to start? as for str augmenters go, well back before grad stats they rocked when grad stats came in it really hurt them, trust me I had two of them one was pkiller the other wasnt. I do think augment is to powerfull at 60spi perhaps it should heal about 3 30 or so at 60spi well my thoughts from a kind of old pkiller not just another joe. -Infernal Hellfire

From: Beam Sunday, January 09, 07:59AM Your missing the point. If your talking a war you do anything to win granted, but if your having a duel, or a gentlemenly fight, you don't heal period. Secondly, if your healing your losing. Why heal if you are winning. So you might as well say, woah boy mercy, don't kill me you just kicked my butt, but no you use the underhand tactic of healing. Snipers don't need to heal, ever, if your winning, then kill them and quick. If your losing run to a norecall safe room or rent, or ask for mercy. It's that simple. As far as people jumping you when your not ready, or multing you or healing when they shouldn't thats not balance really. At least not in the old sense of dueling. Granted it is part of balance when your talking an all out war, but I don't think it would necessarily be good to make every char even when you let out all the stops, because pkill is very complicated. If your gonna run away and heal, you bring just too many factors into the equation to be balancing. I don't want to get into why ppl save up cured fish and all sorts of underhanded things in order to win. I never respected ppl that did that sort of thing.

From: Infidel Sunday, January 09, 08:55AM The problem with that is mages have some form of healing that just comes with being a mage, you can't balance it so they're on equal terms without using everything available to them for various reasons.. Currently the form of balance we have now is like rock paper scissors.. For just about every character type there's another that can wipe the floor with them and I think most of us aren't really happy with that setup, we'd like a reasonable chance vs any other character. There's other problems such as skills fail/success being just that, they really need to be scaled to get more constant results & for strategies to be worth anything. Apart from possibly snipers, fighting similar characters to your own is just silly under this system.. You may as well toss a coin as each skill or spell either benefits you greatly or totally backfires. I think most of us would also like to see the return of 2.stun to allow one a chance in 2 on 1's.. It's something that's even helpful in mob kill and isn't really overpowered as long as any damage done to the stunned will wake them. The problem with sink as I see it is another relating to the above, it can win or lose a fight, if your target eats a spell they suck up all the mana used in casting it, you lose the full mana cost of the spell and can't do anything for 2 rounds.. Next attempt you could wfw them! just about the whole fight system works like this. Only those that are poor pkillers or planners in building their characters could possibly enjoy a system that is so highly random.

From: Amadio Sunday, January 09, 11:37AM This is straying from the original topic at this point, but I'm not sure w why people are so bent out of shape by pkillers that prep for fights, or h heal, or anything else that gives them an edge in a fight. Admitedly, I haven't had an active pkiller since before grad stats went in, so I can't really begin to say what works now and what doesn't. But personally, whether it's in a duel or a jump or whatever, I'd rather win than lose. I have fun either way, or I wouldn't do it, and anyone who knows my alts k knows that I lose more often than I win, but still, it's my name on the info line, and I'd rather have it on the good side than the bad side. If you build a character knowing that healing midfight is going to be a useful strategy for you, why not use it? If we don't want pkillers that can heal or do other interesting things to swing fights one way or the other, let's just all build straight fighters and beat the crap out of each other. Whee. Fun.

From: Beam Sunday, January 09, 01:07PM So your saying you'll do anything to win, huh Amadio. I guess you can just attack right after someone comes back into the game from a death, then you would almost surely get your name on info. Personally I think a fight log shows skill a lot better than an info line, and that also includes beating you by the agreed upon rules.

From: Amadio Sunday, January 09, 09:55PM Where did my post say that I would kill someone after they'd just died? And no, I wouldn't. Don't put words in my mouth.

From: Beam Sunday, January 09, 09:59PM My apologies, amadio. To me its sorta like agreeing to foils, then pulling out a pistol. If its a duel then stick with the agreed on terms if not then anything goes, doubt much that goes on these days is duels though.

From: Sibwarra Monday, January 10, 07:40PM eek, to omany appends, better write a new one, hehe

From: Danar Thursday, January 13, 04:41AM heh. nice to take a couple of weeks off and come back to a jab at me on the dis board from somebody I don't even remember arguing with :b anyway. I think you've found the important point, Beam; it's unreasonable to expect people to hold to a standard of honor they never agreed to. I've downloaded my share of pkill logs :b and I don't see a lot of people telling, oh, say, DH, or whoever he is now, not to go heal when they agree to fight, so of course he does, and he wins. Good warriors use anything and everything they have to win the battle. A fight is not a duel, any more than an argument is a debate. One has codified rules which both parties are expected to abide by, and the other is just whoever can score first. If you want to duel, fine, but you better hope the other person does too. Danar


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