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Posted by Dune on 08/02

... if anyone cares or takes notice that certain players are frustrated and upset with our pksystem. Im asking for some RESPONSE from the imms. Read some of the above posts. You guys are losing some of your most dedicated players. You are losing the people that worked the hardest to find out all the new eq you put in, all the quests that gave access to special areas... or cool eq... You are losing all the players that take the time to explore your exciting new areas. You are losing all the players that look hard to find cool rooms that have really neat aspects to them that are mostly useful in pkill.. that is, fooling other players. Rooms that are 2n to get out, and only 1s to come back... rooms with mobs that have cool acts and respond to certain hometown types vs others. Jeez, there are so many things to name... so Ill just summerize why they all go together. They are all aspects of this mud that make it interesting for pkill. For players that dont pkill, most of these are just a nuisance. An area with a dangerous mob, or a weird room that is a DT unless your flying, and blows you around to other random rooms.. all that stuff is just avoided by nonpkill.... So now Im going to ask a question of the imms... directly. Do you guys see value in all this? Do you simply not agree with what Im saying about how pkillers really take the time to appreciate and learn the mud that you are creating? Should I just shut up? I would have shut up sooo long ago (when I stopped playing) if I was the only one.. it doesnt seem like I am. Every virtual world needs its top and bottom... its good and evil. Free speech in America is one of the MOST important aspects of its system. Yeah, it allows a lot of crazy people to march in the streets and show support for hatred and racism... but somehow, there is a value to that. The freedom to speak your mind and not be prosecuted for it is worth all the good and bad it creates.... Let me explain one other thing. Your pkokall thing with clans, or whatever you installed, does not work. Am I wrong in stating that? Do you guys read the boards? It doesnt work... You know why? Its not because "people dont want it". Thats wrong. To me that proves a very basic understanding of human nature.. In the most basic course, that every university has in every social science major, you learn about the prisoners dilemma. Go look it up. Thats why your system doesnt work.. not because people dont "want it". Sometimes you need a governing body to hardline a certain right, that would collapse as a whole if decided individually by each person weighing cost benefit for theirself. So read over the board. A lot of us stopped posting and just gave up... But Manticores recent posts have resparked some discussion. Tell me that you dont value the things that I mentioned... and that legend would be fine without them.. and Ill shut up. You cant do much against a society doesnt want you. Im not so sure that that is the case...yet. If it is, please enlighten me. Tell me that the bad is just too bad to allow a more accurate reference to human nature.. complete with survival, and conflict embedded.. for and good and for bad. Just settle this for once. Tell me that you dont want me to be logging on anymore because its never going to change, and that Im just whining... Tell me I live in a country that doesnt care about me. Push me and the likes to just leave. Lets settle this. Do you guys care about us, or not? Dont we have a point? Dont you care about your mud? Dune and Poetry

From: Arrak Monday, July 31, 10:53AM se s u Damn...that was good

From: Skar Monday, July 31, 04:39PM Dune, I took your advice and researched the prisoner's dilemma. How does it relate to player-killing here? For those that haven't looked it up, the prisoner's dilemma is a non-zero-sum game. That is, I don't have to lose for you to win. At each round of the game, you can either cooperate with or betray your partner. If you both cooperate, you get points. If you betray your partner while she cooperates, you get lots of points and she gets screwed. If you both betray, you get points, but not as many as if you had cooperated. Your goal is to maximize your score. According to the reading I've done, there's no one generally accepted best strategy, but it seems to me that the most sustainable strategy is to cooperate. If you betray, then you get a short-term increase, but it's unlikely that your partner will ever trust you again. This is beginning to make a little more sense to me, Dune. I believe that too many people are going for short-term gains -- ie, how can I get an advantage in this one fight? Obviously, I should reject all challenges until I'm absolutely prepared, accept someone and kill them. After that, I should reject them at my earliest opportunity to avoid reprisals. The trouble is that nobody will want to play with me under those circumstances. Nobody will use the system, and pkill will wither. Was that your point about human nature? We all need to think about the long-term prospects for pkill here. If large numbers of us accept all challenges, then we can continue to play the way some of us have become accustomed to. At the same time, we must never abuse each other's trust, because if one of us drops out -- or decides to only duel -- our pool of opponents drops. We have to trust that, although we may lose a fight, we won't be looted or multied outside any limits we ourselves agree to. You may defeat me, but if I'm enjoying myself, I haven't lost. If your goal is to take that enjoyment from me, you'll only win once. I won't play with you again, and we'll both have lost.

From: Dun Monday, July 31, 04:45PM Ok...no im not nearly as smart as Dune, and skar...but I know what pk was. not sure what the dilemna thing was you were talking about, or maximizing points...but I do know, the reason -most- and I say most as in most of the older pkers...(pkers who pk'd in the old system a lot) probabl hate the idea of people being able to reject them after they taunt, multi, or loot...people wouldnt care about loot if there wasnt, SO MUCH old equip -ment with the hit/dam changes, or people with SO MANY strings they cherish so much...I know looting was a thing in the old pk system too, bu but you could ALWAYS get someone back for it...in this system, you might n -ot be able to... I know this is my only reason for not accepting all, and I know that i would accept all, if I was positive I could get revenge...it might sound cheesy or something like that but getting back at someone, for something awful they do, is great... not being able to get back at someone for something awful they do... is terribly awful... ok enough of my trying to get a point across, which I probably failed doing... -Dun Foal -=Effin Pissed=-

From: Huginn Monday, July 31, 05:11PM Do we care if the hardcore pkillers stop playing? I can only answer that from a personal standpoint. Yes I care if you guys leave. You're right alot of the folks that have put in the most time and are the most verbal (for good or worse) fall into that hardcore catagory. What I remember of the prisoner's dilema goes like this however: Two people are arrested for a crime, let's call them CharA and CharB. If both A & B confess then they both get 5 years of prison time. If A confesses and B does not then A gets 2 years while B gets 5 years. Obviously the reverse is true if B confesses and A doesn't. If both remain silent then they do no time. There was a competition awhile ago where people coded their strategies and had them play against each other. I believe the winner was a program that did tit-for-tat. It started out staying silent and then mirrored what the last move was of its "partner". So if you ratted on it, it would rat on you next time. If you stayed silent, then you'd both win. You'd think that that strategy would work well in the pkok world. You start accepting and then stop based on negative feedback. But apparently that's not the case. One reason for that is that the incentive to risk ratio is off. If that's true then having a high jump environment itself isn't enough of a reward for most people. Otherwise they'd pursue that goal themselves. They need something else to risk accepting for... I'd hate to see those people leave .. well at least most of you. So there are three questions that need to be answered. 1) is the imm staff doing enough to make pk work? I don't speak for the staff. And personally I've been too busy to do almost anything legend related. So I'd say no to a personal version of that question, undecided on the staff version (again as a personal opinion). 2) are the players doing enough to make pk work? My personal opinion is that the players want a coded fix and aren't interested in contribution outside of discussions on the boards. Have I tried to join a pkill clan and accept people? Yes. Have others? Yes. Have enough players? No. 3) What incentives can be included for accepting that aren't combat influencing? Otherwise all the vets will be even more unbeatable since they'll be "winning". Huginn

From: Dune Monday, July 31, 06:02PM Skar, that was exactly my point about human nature, the prisoner's dilemma, and the reason that the whole thing doesnt work. I dont always have the patience to post it as clearly as you have, and if I did, then it make my already too long post even longer. Dun's post states the same thing more subjectivly. Its pretty clear why it doesnt work... I just wonder why no one cares to deal with it. The rest of my post is actually more important to me... Im just wondering if legend has set a goal for itself... like a new direction of where it wants to go. Maybe people like me should just stop posting and get over it -shrug-, and find someother place to go. Personally, I dont think a virtual society can exsist without top and bottom... good and bad... etc. I always admired the imms at legend for understanding this, and allowing players like Dusk, who at times have committed heinous crimes on legend... to exsist. A natural mechanism kept him and others in check, and a neat balance was created. Now we have a "club" more than a mud. Let me tell you, that some of the most heated and exciting situations were created by the crusade against the more evil pkillers. Its all gone, and everything is very flat. So the question Im really curious about is whether or not this is valued here, at legend. If its not, then Im sorry for being such a freak on the boards. I feel a little security in posting because Im reading that a lot of people agree. So maybe some imms could clear it up. I honestly dont mind closing the subject and just looking elseware. Just tell us where the direction is going. Dune

From: Wyvern Monday, July 31, 06:41PM damn that was nice I agree with everything Dune sas says

From: Wyvern Wednesday, August 02, 11:29AM strangely enough, i kinda believe what Dune says about the Prisoner's Dilemna. There are MANY times that i had fun, even though i die or, where i had fun when i got looted, spiced it up a bit. Which is pretty weird because my goal is not to die =P I also have fun being doubleteamed, and a very high risk of dying is present. Of course, i'd feel crappy after i die, but nonetheless, i'd have a lot of fun.


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