Posted by Infernal on 09/19
Since post 36 is buggy I would like to continue it,
I like the this idea on making a greater spell for roots,
how about making a 3rd circle form of the healing roots
spell? like letting it have less of a fill value or heal
more hps when eaten. Its really hard for me to
play my creates when I can do just about everything
just as good or better with my cause mage.
The spells that set creates and causes appart imo is
my ability to create walls. but in nowdays world
most of the good mobs can see illusion thus making
them totaly worthless and most pkillers now
are part mage so they have this ability to see illusion.
Please help us 3rd circle create mages (dying race btw)
lock w by giving us at least one really good advantage
over the cause mage
Infernal Hellfire part of a dying breed
Thursday, September 14 2000, 12:54AM
I absolutely agree. There was once a decent create
healing spell, cure serious. Rufus changed it to
create healing, argueing that the create school should
be more oriented towards actually creating tangible
objects, a view with which I completely agree btw.
However, when the create healing spell was introduced,
the food value of the roots was low, you could eat like
50 of them from starving to full.
Appearently that caused some imbalance in pkill, so after various
pkiller whining - eh sorry pkiller complaints :P - the
food value of the roots was incredibly increased,
making the usefullness of roots limited to say the least :(
I can understand that some change was necessary, but did it
really have to be so drastic? As Scar suggested, let 3c create
make better roots, which either have lower food value, last
longer, or make better heals. What I am suggesting is restoring
create healing to the equivalent of the once existant cure
serious, which was somewhere between the cause cure light and
If either or several of those options were provided, I think
you could also increase the mana cost for the spell a bit, if
you would consider it to make for better balance. The change
would then benefit mages with high mind, which I can't see
as a disadvantage. After all mages -should- benefit from high
mind, shouldn't they? :)
Thursday, September 14 2000, 05:31AM
The only problem before was roots lasted too long so you could
prep before a fight with them or give them to others to use.
As long as they don't last long and have similar mana cost
to cause healing, why can't they be 0 food value?
Thursday, September 14 2000, 08:11AM
zero fill value roots... hm. I would play my create mage ALOT.
The mana to hps ratio is much better than cause healing, and now
that you can prep them, spam eat them, and use ALL your mana
I played a create mage 2 years ago that ate roots that were
practically no fill... you want that back? that was crazy. The only
difference would be that they only last 6 ticks... if you make
them zero fill, you could still premake a 600HP heal that takes
less than one round to spam eat. And hey... 6 ticks is plently
time to do damage and take damage.
Maybe imms should make 2c create roots a little more filling, and/or
3c roots a little LESS filling.
Thursday, September 14 2000, 09:03AM
Testboy, according to Huginn's earlier posts, prepping roots for a
fight is supposed to be a feature. However, given their short
duration, that's not really true currently.
My suggestion is to increase the maximum duration of the roots to
about 50 ticks. Don't change the fill value or the healing value.
Just make them last longer. That way the roots can still be prepped
before a fight, but you still have a real limit on how many you can
eat at once.
Hm. I don't think the coders can do this, but it would be really
neat if the roots had a higher maximum heal, but their potency
decreased as they got older. That would be pretty cool. :)
Thursday, September 14 2000, 09:56AM
I personally think their should be an entirely different spell for create.
Maybe if you are 3rd circle you can kere jiv dyn or something and it makes
a clone to give you parts or something :P I don't know, but I think
3rd circle create definatly needs beefed up.
Thursday, September 14 2000, 01:23PM
Its hard for me to remain objective about roots.
Being a 2nd circle mage, roots are seemingly perfect
to me the way they are. Of course I am not a 3rd
circle create so I can understand how you can look
at the cause side of mages with envy because they
have 2 different types of healing for their 2 circles.
My suggestion to save my own ass is to leave 2nd circle
roots the way they are, and maybe extend the tick time
on 3rd circle roots, or make 3rd circle roots more
dependant on mind for added mana to hp gain. A 100 mind
3rd circle create should be able to make a root that is
worth more healing that a 50 mind 2nd circle create.
Thursday, September 14 2000, 03:05PM
Solomon, if you made roots last 50 ticks, then you
could make 11 of them, or whatever the most you could
eat from starving is, and the meditate up or even chalice
up all your mana.... then you become a 600 mana mage with
350hps of free quick heal....
That was half the problem with roots 2 years ago. With my
alt I could make 15 roots, meditate up, and then fight....
That probably shouldnt come back.
Just make 3c create mages able to eat more of them.. that
would solve it I think.. and a little more, not too much.
Thursday, September 14 2000, 05:28PM
Well having endured more than a few of these
constant 'balancing' as a create mage I personally think
a downgrade on the fill value of roots is seriously
overdue. I dont mind the duration of the roots its never
bothered me, but the sheer fact that you can eat so little
roots and not to mention mana or hit regen is
horrible beacause you have to starve yourself if
you ever expect to eat roots again. Lets for
sake see at least a halving of the fill value.
While I'm thinking of create spells, can we ever expect to
see some spells using mrti that actually are worth casting?
As it stands I find it the most usless word I've
ever had the misfortune of learning.
Thursday, September 14 2000, 07:00PM
A few comments on create mages and healing:
First -- just because cause mages have more powerful healing at
3rd circle than they do at 2nd doesn't mean that create mages
should. In fact, I would argue that it means that create mages
probably shouldn't. The closer together that the two types of mages
become, the less diverse they are. The less diverse they are, the less
fun it is to play one type after you've played another.
The second question I'd like to comment on is whether create mages are
underpowered. I'm not sure that I'm ready to make a decision on that,
but there is something that's important to remember. Most of the
comments on the weakness of create mages seem to be surrounding combat
-- they're not as powerful in combat as cause mages. This was, I
think, a intentional design decision (I wasn't there, so I can't say
for sure). Create mages have a lot more "utility" spells.
As for adding new spells to mages (cause or create), I'm open to doing
it as time permits and within the balance of the game. There are a few
words that aren't currently particularly useful, and I'd like to
improve that situation.
Thursday, September 14 2000, 08:03PM
concurring in part and dissenting in part
- I look at roots from a slightly different angle. On the one hand,
it seems pretty straightforward -- make a magic thing, eat it, be healed.
But in practice, we convert mages into an unhealthy state -- where they
have to starve to heal, and the starving hurts their ability to heal
while they're waiting to heal. It's a contradiction that manifests itself
as the pain you've described. The solution to this, in my mind, is to make
the healing qualities of the food more incidental to their function -- mor
more filling roots, with less +hp value, and provide healing in a
- A few ideas for this alternate healing....'aura of healing' -- boosts yo
regen rate (and perhaps a little of your group's rate as well if 3rd circ?
...make healing elixers which rely on your drug counter rather than your
thirst/hunger counter....well ok, two ideas :) but this is the direction
where I think the solution lies, not in trying to find the exactly right
hp value/mana cost/fill value of roots.
Thursday, September 14 2000, 08:06PM
Well thinking on the mages I play, I cant say that as a
create mage I cast more than about 20 or so of the 87 spells
in my spellbook very often. If we even get more detailed
I probably only cast about 10 spells often. So if we are looking at
making spell more used I guess atleast half need work :P
I know for certain there is at least 10-15 spell I haven't cast since
learing them. So a good look at the spell lists and it shouldn't be
too hard to tell what needs improving.
As for words that need more spells, Mrti for create mages and
Kala and Anna for cause mages come to mind very quickly.
Anyways I'll ramble more at a later date
Friday, September 15 2000, 01:21AM
Ea!, the way I see it the whole point of having two
mage schools is that they -should- be different
but also of equal worth as a whole so to say, so that
you always in every situation should hesitate which one
is better as a total. If we for the sake of reasoning
accept your assumption that cause mages being better
in combat was the intention of the original design,
then I think it was also part of the original design
to make create school more self-sufficient. Cause mages
had more powerful combat spells, and create had cure serious,
partly to compensate for that I guess.
Then the cure serious spell was replaced by create healing and
of course one wonders about the reason. If it was
to orient the create school towards actually creating
tangible object - which makes perfect sense, at least
to me :) - and the possibility of prepping constitues
a balance problem - then why not just lower the duration
of roots? Me, I wouldn't mind if they decayed after 3 ticks
- even 2 - if the food value was considerably decreased.
If the reason was to actually provide the possibility to
prep for healing then we immediately run into the problems
Poetry mentioned, not to mention that with today's
root food value it doesn't work so anyway.
Finally if as LA says low filling value on food
is illogical - I admit it's hard for me to understand,
we have lots of low filling value food on the mud, so
why not roots? - then maybe another healing spell -is-
an option. Why not use mrti for that new spell, would
give mrti some real use even for creates - something
like ksi vya mrti ex or ksi anna mrti ex or maybe even
ksi mrti rudh ex if it has some extra power.
Also, if the create schoold would follow the design
intention to be self-sufficient they
should be able to be -decent- fighters. So the damage made by
create spells should be increased IMHO. I wouldn't
mind the spells like flamestrike or etheric void costing more
mana if also the damage was beefed up. Or maybe another
damage spell using mrti, to give mrti another use. Something
like kere vya mrti ex or kere mrti rudh ex?
Sorry, I didn't intend for this to be quite so long :)
Best of greetings
Friday, September 15 2000, 04:47AM
3c's stun is already better, I don't think it should be, nor
should other spells, they get a bunch of bonus spells only
available to them and while 2c generally go for lower mind,
they're both pretty much the same as far as fight skills go.
It's always a 3c's option to go low mind too, base spells on
mind if you have to but not circle.
Friday, September 15 2000, 05:43AM
Uhh...what are you talking about testboy?
Friday, September 15 2000, 05:39AM
ok I think create mages are underpowered by a long shot.
and for them being able to do things by themselfs you can do
everything a create can do and better with a create except for
and better with a cause I was trying to say.
I think roots fill value should be dropped not to the point
of 50 roots. Im gonna test with my creates to find out
how many you can eat now and what not.
Improve creates please they need it a whole lot and I can prove it
Friday, September 15 2000, 05:46AM
umm testboy I dont know if 3rd circle stun is better than 2nd circle
stun. Ive had a 2nd circle mage with 90s mind and he wfwed just as good
as a 3rd circle mage with same mind
Its the mind that makes the diff not the circle level of the spell
Friday, September 15 2000, 07:06AM
actually both do, and i was responding to someone that said
create roots should be better for 3c than 2c Archmage.
Friday, September 15 2000, 08:39AM
Create mages -shouldn't- need a heal spell.
Considering the main power of a create mage
in a combat situation is to create charmies
charmies that can carry eq and weapons
and generally (probably) have more HP
than the animated counterparts of the
cause mage, these charmies
are supposed to be the ones taking the brunt of
the damage for the create wizard.
Personally.. I don't see how you can 'create' healing
upon someone.. unless you create a potion
perhaps there could be a higher value potion
that heals more hp.
Something you couldn't necessarily brew.
I think LadyAce mentioned something in her post like that.
who hasn't gotten into the 3c range yet
who likes to post on things he really doesn't know
anything about (like PK)
Friday, September 15 2000, 04:22PM
Umm chris the cause charmies that cause makes have more hps
than the create ones, and some can carry items and gold etc,
and with animating swords they can hit harder too, and cause can make
a whole crap load of 500hps charmies and decimating swords.
Friday, September 15 2000, 09:44PM
That reminds me, another MUD I play has zombies/skeletons too,
the difference is although they keep the original mobs name
in its desc when animated, the original keywords aren't used.
Much easier that way, you gotta screw around a lot more here
to ensure you don't hit your own charmies.
Tuesday, September 19 2000, 02:48PM
Yeah, I know I'm not here anymore, but anyways...
I like LA's ideas, but for the aura of healing, to implement
that, how about create spell that makes a shield or helm
that either gives a faster healing rate, or reduces damage.
Not reduces as much as old sanctuary, but more like 10-20% less.
With the downside being giving up the stat/ac bonus for that
slot. It could be so that you can't drop/give, and timed of
course, just trying to throw ideas into the random mumblings.