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c3 Cause/ c3 Create

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Posted by Sax on 10/12

Why is it that cause mages seem to have so many more advantages than create mages? (3rd circle) Don't get me wrong, I'm a religious c3 create player, and I have much more finesse with c3 creates than I have with cause. And even so it's blindingl obvious to me that cause has a lot more going for it. For 75 mana a cause mage can get a q5 or q4 dancing weapon that far outdamages any create charmie. For all the beam of pain, elemental special acts, etc, I'm sure they don't beat say...a gusting sastram, a broad axe, a couple of slothers, etc. I KNOW this for a fact. I've never been able to kill the brahman in 4 rounds with any sort of create mage (barring instant death vials). And now causes get to animate wands! Whee, we can have even MORE weapon specials that equal or are better than elemental specials. Another argument is that elementals have hps. That's great. But I'd also l love to have the alternative summoning spell of something with no hps and good (as in dancing sword good) damage. Mana cost can still be 150, I don' really mind that since the cause mage has to expend mana to get the weapon assuming, he/she doesn't just buy it. Heck, I wouldn't even mind if I had to go out and gather things to make that greater damage charmie. Maybe moondust for a high damage air sprite. Not really too sure on the kinds of items, but these high dam create charmies could be too powerful, make it so that you need a specific item that doesn't repop so often and is too renty to carry around in heaps. Cause mages charmies do not have charmie hps dependent on mind. This means 150 mana = 500hp charmy if you kill some easy level 50 mob, and there are quite a few of those around. For just 60 mind, you get a 500 hp tank, you can go out and get swords to offset the fact that the tank does next to nil in damage. Create mages spend 200 mana on a charmie that usually eventually poofs, doesn't hit all too good unless it's doing a special (the demon bash is sweet) the stun from the titan isn't so hot if you tend to inspire, and I'm really not too keen on the beam of pain from the angel. This charmie if you have 60 mind usually has...wow about 250hps or so, and is almost never, in my experience, permanent. The elementals, if you have 60 mind, are also pathetic, unless you're a con mage, in which case, they' are probably about 200hps. Unfortunately they don't do a whole lot of dama during that 200 hps. I suggest that animate dead hps be calculated the way greater elemental hps are currently calculated. Because the way it is...a min stat c3 cause basically gets all the charmie benefits of a 100mind c3 cause. A min stat c3 create gets no where even CLOSE to that. After this huge rant (scuffle), you might ask why I play almost exclusively c3 creates...well. The answer is I'm lazy, I like being able t to preserve my own gear, and I'm in love with gauze rolls appearing out of thin air. I'm too lazy to go out, kill something, buy weapons, animate them, most of the time.

From: Sax Saturday, October 07 2000, 03:10AM Ick went LD. And create appeals to me probably because of temperament too, I just plain -like- create better. But when I look at it, c3 causes have: 10 more stat points, 5 more hitroll, better armor Better damage spells Better tanking charmies at 60 mind Dancing swords and wands that do comparable or more damage than greater elementals c3 creates have: Instant gratification factor, I want charmie NOW I get charmie NOW Creation of neat things like bandage rolls Preserve Cooler looking charmies (matter of opinion) 3 types of charmies that can hold gear So to finish off I really think c3 create needs more looking at...whenever I compare creates to causes I get really frustrated -vent- Thanks for reading this rant (assuming you got this far) Sax Oh yeah and I'm cause. -snicker-

From: Mac Saturday, October 07 2000, 08:08AM How bout giving doppels fight skills, not necessarily bash, kick etc but weapons training so it may be worthwhile to equip them. As it is they take half your xp and don't even do any damage.. Not really a suggestion to address Sax's complaints but for the 2c's that were really screwed by the change to grouping.

From: Zemus Saturday, October 07 2000, 10:45PM How about give creates and cause mages the dancing sword spell. I mean the cause mage is causeing the sword to dance or you can look at it as the create mage is createing new life in the sword to make it attack or something :P might be intersting if both types could have it, dont know if it will throw things off but its an idea

From: Darkheart Sunday, October 08 2000, 08:14AM Well, I wouldn't mind a 3c create option to animate things they created -- staff of light, ice dagger, flaming sword. Course we'll prolly have to make it so that they're not mere illusions -- think other than for the staff of light, everything else is fairly real in terms of words used in them. Prolly will need a new staff spell too, or something. The main problem i have with the current create scheme is that roots are really no good even if you have heaps of mana left. How about an ability to create poultices instead? About the same healing as cure light, perhaps, but with the same mana cost or so as roots... of course, this is an addition to the current root spell, just for 3rd... but in any case, guess the point that need to be addressed is more ways of making mana useful for create mages. They can't even prep their charmies, heck, can't even hand over swords and staves of light and stuff to their charmies. Equipping them with newbie light armor and shield is about it. (Lower the costs on flaming shrouds and shields, have them be handoutable to the caster's charmies, we'll have some fun stuff going on :p) DH

From: Israfel Tuesday, October 10 2000, 10:28AM I like the idea flaming shrouds/shields/staves/daggers/swords being handable to charmies, as long as they're handable ONLY to those mobs charmed to you, not to players, other mobs (i.e. someone else's charmies) etc. Or perhaps greater summons could come with spells that protect themselves, say, wall of thorns for a greater golem, self renewing even when moved, or some sort of aura around angels/titans that makes their opponent take more dam if opponent is of the opposite align. Haven't really thought this through seriously in terms of balance, (too tired). But c3 create could really use a boost in some way. Israfel Shadowleaf

From: Mugwump Wednesday, October 11 2000, 09:20AM While I lean toward believing that create is less powerful than cause in some ways (in terms of rate of xp gain, pkill, usefulness to groups, etc.), I don't think I would include charmies in that assessment. I don't see how a dancing wand could be more powerful than a homunc or dopple holding that wand. As for weapons with specials, homuncs can wield those too, and are cheap enough that you can be choosy about having one with lots of hp to wield it. And while dancing swords may be capable of doing more damage than a greater elemental, even my skinny elementals have a big advantage in hp. A single elemental can solo many mobs their own level (or higher). A dancing sword... um, doubt it. One thing that I think can be done to give create a small boost in pkill is perhaps cutting down on the number of spells that are illusions. Currently, any mage can render a half dozen or so spells useless for the duration of a fight with a single spell.

From: Skar Wednesday, October 11 2000, 10:23AM Once again, I'd like to see no charmies have their hp rely on their master's hp. In my opinion, charmie hp should be based on some relationship to their master's max mana -- 100% for greater summonings, 50% for greater elementals, 25% for elementals and 12% for homunculi. Dancing swords and animated corpses should also have hp based on max mana while also interacting with weapon quality or mob level. The more mana you have, the more hp your charmies get. I prefer a solution that uses max mana rather than mind because if a mage sacrifices rent space to increase their mana, they're going to be weaker in combat. An 800 mana mage is a godawful wimp. They need good charmies to compensate. An idea I submitted once was to begin coding spells that relied or could be augmented by material components. That way mages could get more powerful spells, but they would be limited because of the difficulty obtaining the item, rent cost, etc. You could even have material components that you had to quest for or that you couldn't rent. A component could be permanent, have multiple uses or poof after only one use. For instance, change the doppelganger spell. Alone, it creates an exact duplicate of the mage. Using different material components, you can get different mobs with more damage, maybe a few fight acts. Change the greater summoning spell so that you can use a material component to summon which mob you want. Have your chances of summoning be affected by your alignment. Using material components could also change the mana cost of spells, affect the strength of damage spells or the duration of prep spells. Of course, making mages carry around a bunch of stuff to get more powerful spells would make them even weaker if they had to expend significant rent space. The augmented spells would have to be worth it. Finally, I'd make a new COMPONENT item type. You could recognize components with the identify spell, but you'd have to experiment to discover what it did.

From: Splat Wednesday, October 11 2000, 09:58PM I disagree with so much emphasis to be put on mind or mana. Low mind have less mana to create charmies and regen it slower already, when you get down to 60 odd mind you'll find yourself rarely using them as it is. I had a char at about 80 mind but brought him closer to 100 just so I could make better use of pets, and that's a cause mage whos pets hps don't currently depend on the casters mind or mana. No need to make it worse.

From: Splat Wednesday, October 11 2000, 10:03PM Oh yeah, perhaps you should look at the formula for hps on titans etc, it used to be based on the casters con or hps but when it went to mind it was way off the original. I mean I had 40 con, 60 mind and my charmies dropped by over 100 hps.


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