Discussion Archives Index

RP, feedback, problems, solutions.

Current Index

Posted by Kae on 10/28

The last couple of weeks have seen an attempt to restore/increase/repair the role playing atmosphere on Legend. This has not so much been the result of any organized attempt as much as it has been coincidence, people taking a new interest, meeting others, and generally being noisy. I like to think myself that it's some sort of much needed counter-reaction to the boredom of watching people griping about pkok and other changes for the last months. However, it has created some problems. As one of my morts (Marcel for ye few who may not be aware) has been deeply involved in at least some of the more recent RP developments, I've had plenty chance to observe what it's like to be there, just as I've been the mediator and advice giver several times as your friendly neighborhood asst PR immortal in the obscure hours. So let's take a look at what's ruined my mood this week, as well as general feedback, shall we? Issues of griping in no particular order below. -Kae ANNOYING PKILLERS Problem: If he makes noise, let's kill him. Solution: PKOK solved a huge part of this problem; at least it's possible not to accept some performance pkiller who wants to kill you just for the kill point and because you're drawing attention. Remaining problem: This does, however, not stop certain types from verbal abuse on location and on channels in order to get you to accept them instead of focusing on your plot. While this is something that the individual player can ignore, it creates a bad atmosphere and may cause others to be very cautious of joining into RP situations (hey, who wants to get verbally abused?). KILLING OF MOBS IN PLOT Problem: If it's a mob and it talks, let's kill it. Solution: Make important mobs level 51. Make sure to remember to make them visible too -peer self-. As for minors that people should be able to kill, make them level 1 and set up one heck of a spammy alias like I did to quickly load and string about 15 archetypes. We can load 'em faster than they can kill 'em. ORGANISED TINY PLOTS: WHERE THE HECK ARE THE ACTORS? Problem: It's really difficult to conclude a story line if half the cast doesn't show up. Solution: Unfortunately it seems that the only effective solution to this problem is to make certain to have a set of back-up heroes and villains recruited from the immortal staff (well, their morts). Those are people who are ready to step in and take over when and if the characters of the key roles don't show up or simply leave for some obscure reason or other. This bothers me, because it adds to the silly notion of immortals being cliqueish and keeping the fun to themselves, but I fail to see how we can work around it. It also means that it takes considerably more than one immortal to host a tiny plot -- it requires the immortal PLUS a number of other people whom the immortal knows for certain he or she can rely upon to be there and do their job if everyone else fails to. WHY DOES IT ALWAYS HAVE TO END IN PKILL? Problem: If there is a storyline, it has to end in bloodshed. Solution: Pkok must be used in order to be of use, and it is the only way to make certain that not every role play effort on the mud turns into a bloodbath. People have to be cautious whom they accept, and in turn, people need to accept that so and so is not willing to settle everything in the plot with a brawl. If you accept someone, you give him permission to try to kill you. Live with it. If someone doesn't accept you it means he's not interested in fighting with you. Live with it. WHY HAVE PKILL IF WE DON'T USE IT? Problem: We have a perfectly cool system for characters fighting, yet we all just stand around and yell at each other instead. Solution: We need to be ready to engage in player kill when it makes sense in regard to the characters involved, and the story line they're involved in. This does not mean that we should fight every time someone calls our character an idiot, but it does mean that hey, if you think your character would be mad at an insult, why not have him attempt to trash the person making the insult? After all, a single death is not the end of the world to anyone. WHY EVEN BOTHER?

From: Kae Tuesday, October 24 2000, 07:24AM continued... WHY EVEN BOTHER? Problem: Combat, pkill, questing and other code-controlled pastimes give me rewards. I don't get zip for role playing, so why should I bother? Solution: One word: FUN. But if that doesn't get you, here's a few words more. Legend does not have a code-controlled reward system for role playing. We have a few attempts at rewarding good attempts -- the expies, role play coupons, zip strings, etc. As an immortal I have the ability to give other rewards -- I can decide to reward good performance with a string related to the story line, we can even consider cool whois tags on a few occasions (yeah, that's where Marcel got his ...once invaded Tara and tried to establish a reign of cruelty! tag, actually). But because there is no code-controlled system, we need to evaluate everything manually. In other words, you have to do damn well to stand out. That's life. If it's not fun to role play for you, don't do it, but let others have their fun doing it. SO WHY DON'T WE HAVE A CODE CONTROLLED RP REWARD SYSTEM? Problem: So and so MUSH has a cool reward system for RP, why don't we? Fact: I asked Ptah that 4 years ago. Here's what he said: "Come up with one that favors everyone and doesn't let people bribe their friends into voting for them instead." I'm still thinking. If you think you can come up with one I suggest you outline it in an email to me, and I'll pick it apart for you just like Ptah did mine. No kidding here, it's a very tough nut to crack. Time to jump off the soap box, lemme hear your feedback.

From: Kae Tuesday, October 24 2000, 07:30AM Oh, I forgot (hey, I've lived night and slept day this week, for a certain plot): The above opinions do not reflect the staff of LegendMUD, they're a my personal views, yada yada yada. -Kae

From: Darla Tuesday, October 24 2000, 09:13AM I for one wouldn't mind if you changed the phast of the plots by twelve hours. I, and others that I know would like to get involved, haven't been able to make it to the designated hours, which brings up... problem: WHAT'S GOING ON? Why are people being so secretive and why are non "actors" left so completely out of the plot?

From: Dune Tuesday, October 24 2000, 10:55AM I have to say, the whole RP/PK thing that has been going on for like 4 years since Ive been here is getting old. There is always this focus on trying to get rp going.. making pk more civil, etc. There is always some annoying debate/discussion about this. Someone is always talking about the "old days" when either pk was good, or RP was good... when in reality... I Was around for a lot of those "old days" and back then, people were talking about older "old days". No one is ever satisfied and who the hell cares. There will always be this huge discussion/debate.... young pkillers will always loot and be ruthless to eachother... older pkillers will always be more mature... Frageis, Sterling, Marcel will always RP.... jeez.. these things have never changed, and probably never will. Dont you guys get tired of discussing the same thing over and over? This discussion has been going on for as long as I could remember=p ITS NOT THAT BAD! Really, its not. Its just the way people are... the way that people do things. Its all good. PK is fine, RP is fine. This discussion will never end. It will go up and down when someone gets annoyed or hurt.... etc.. people will flame, etc.. promote just their causes, etc.... thats how it always is. I wonder why it surprizes the same people over and over. Chill or something. Can you see the patterns? If lots of people wanted to RP this way, then those tinyplots would be packed... if lots of people wanted to accept all, then we would have lots of pkill. Legend is now totally in the hands of the players. Whatev comes out, comes out! And this is what came out! People dont pk enough.. BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH... people didnt show up for the RP.. BLAH BLAH BLAH! Dont people have a real life to resort to if legend is sucking? Sometime its good, sometimes it sucks... thats the wild way of Legend. Maybe we can stop being surprized that the sun rises every morning. -yawn-

From: Mariachi Tuesday, October 24 2000, 11:17AM A couple of comments, in response to this post and the log of the clan- building lecture/discussion which I missed, unfortunately. What I have to say deals with the RP/PK mix and the idea that people are 'afraid' to make clans with certain RPs. PK and RP can and should be combined. What is the point of PK without RP? To me, there is no point. He who types fastest and knows the mud best wins, but wins what, exactly? I haven't been here enough to be involved in PK or RP recently, but my last PK experiment was the founding of the Dred Pyrats clan, something many may have considered largely unsuccessful, but I considered a great success. I suggest that fewer people be so attached to their clans and allow the new clan system do what it was designed for, freely forming and unforming clans, a living organic system of clans. Allow for the survi val of the fittest, so to speak. What we did with the Pyrats was a bit different, in that we didn't all wai until level 50 to become active at PK. Contrary to popular belief, we enga ged with others withing a few levels of ourselves, and tried to encourage more low-level PKing. However, higher-level killers took exception to our actions, which was expected, and they hunted us to extinction. Now, even though by the end, it was worse than hopeless, and our character were all just logging on to get multi'd until perma, it was fun for us, and that's what counted. A few of our victims didn't have so much fun, certainly, but we hoped that they would either enjoy their revenge, which most of them got, or find other ways to deal with it. Only one of our members continued killing someone who had asked them to stop, except for on one occasion. Actions had consequences, and we got what we deserved, in the end. That was, PK and RP combined. Since our RP was evil, people said 'that isn't RP, that's just being jerks.' which, I suppose, is a legitimate com complaint, excepting that that's our RP, and tough. If you didn't want to deal with us, you didn't have to. That would be even more true now in PKOK So that's my comment anyway. I also want to dispute the claim in the previ ous post, that ruthless aggressive PK RP is somehow 'less mature' than the 'older' PKers' RPs. That's an immature attitude, that something you don't like is inferior and immature. Anyway.... Mari

From: Dune Tuesday, October 24 2000, 11:37AM Hm, if I made that comment then I would like to take it back... Upper level pkers dont multi the way lower level pkers do. I said that cause I wanted to acknowledge that while people like me are practically immune to the threat of getting multied or looted.. that little players are often not immune. I made the comment out of respect and trying to consider the fact that not every little pker can enjoy the security in pkill that I do... I was trying to acknowledge the problem. A lot of bigger pkillers rebuke people that claim that people get multied. I know that its true more for lower level, and I always thought that it was insensitive to state that if you get multied, its your fault, cause it doesnt happen with "mature" pkers.. most of which have the skill, and resource to reach higher level. I made a little runt pker once that didnt have the name recognition that my upper level pkers do... and yes, he got multi and perma threats and attempts by the same very people that looked up to and respected this character and my other level 50 pker. I was little and resourceful and quick and able to get sneaky with all these threats... but saying that its not ruthless at lower level.. is not saying the truth. Is it maturity? I dunno... Im sure it has something to do with it... I liked the dred pyrats. I wish I was a dred pyrat so that they had someone that could wail on upper levels when they all leveled into level 50 range and got "hunted to extinction". If you remake the dred pyrats, a little unknown fighter will be looking to join.

From: Mac Tuesday, October 24 2000, 02:39PM "I suggest that fewer people be so attached to their clans and allow the new clan system do what it was designed for, freely forming and unforming clans, a living organic system of clans." Unfortunately that's not really possible when housing costs quite a lot to begin with, you can't transfer ownership to the new clan and can't even withdraw from your clan account.

From: LadyAce Wednesday, October 25 2000, 11:18AM I don't think anyone has tried to be secretive -- I posted to the welcome board, was contacted by 8 or so mortals who wanted to be in the plot and we were off. The trouble really came when people were trying to join the plot at Chapter 3 of 4, and not figuring out background or asking what had happened before doing so. In an attempt to mend that a bit, I will post a summary today of what happened the last 3 days. We had been doing okay keeping everything coherent the first 2 days, so I thought all was well....live and learn :). Our conclusion, part 4 of 4, will be played out tonight at 5. Another note... This plot did not have any pre-set 'actors' or 'roles' to it. It went in the direction of the players who joined and shaped it. But once a story gets rolling, we can't very well change the premise. This means, for example, that a certain clan cannot show up on the 3rd day and claim that they are in charge, and then expect other people to simply buy it and ignore all the other things that had been established previously...-poke Grendels- I very much appreciate and welcome new people joining anything like this, at any time. HOWEVER. Remember the annoyance that we feel toward newbies who show up and start critiquing Legend before they even play, just because they don't understand right away? People who are mid-plot feel the same way about mid-story arrivals. New people are welcome, but they need to do their homework. I will post a summary to make it easier, since this story is so complex. Another option might be talking to one of the players or imms when they are not so much "in the thick of it". -LadyAce

From: Elisa Wednesday, October 25 2000, 12:45PM Could we maybe have a tinyplot that isn't just about a few people, and without scheduled times so more people could get involved?

From: LadyAce Wednesday, October 25 2000, 02:43PM The reason I set a time is that it allows me to guarantee that I will be there. It also helps a lot with story telling -- as opposed to ongoing interactions, which can happen at any time, stories generally need to have their characters all collected for employment at the right times. If there's a general gathering time set, we can get a consistent set of players to carry the story. I think it would be hard to build up a drama with a beginning, middle, and end, if we couldn't rely on any particular people being present for the pieces. Tinyplots are about the people who show up for them. They don't instantly engulf the RP of everyone who says something, and not every plot will have a hook for the story you want to tell. I can tell you for certain, however, that nothing discourages people from being part of "public" RP than accusations that they're somehow shutting people out. For the good of the mud, give people a chance to let you in before you cry foul. Give them several chances. Push, prod, be patient, look for a chance and jump in. It's my job to do my best work no matter what I'm accused of, but players are not hired to put themselves on display for the critiques of others. If you want more RP on Legend, don't zap the confidence of people trying to RP by saying they're excluding you. This little speech is not about the people who appended to this post. It's about the people who spammed the players in the tinyplot last night with complaints. If you don't like something, if you want in, for goodness sake, talk to the imms, or talk to the players/imms when they are less spammed later on. -LadyAce

From: Fuzzey Wednesday, October 25 2000, 07:22PM We do have tinyplots that have no set time and have no set actors... Its the mud! -Fuzzey

From: Elisa Wednesday, October 25 2000, 07:23PM Yes, but non-immalts don't get to create mobs and other things for our individual plots, or get people to jump to just by virtue of calling it a tinyplot. -shrug-

From: Fraegis Thursday, October 26 2000, 02:46PM I believe non-immalts still can ask any imm (if they have the command) to help them out, if it concerns creating mobs or anything.. All you probably have to do is ask, likely in advance so they can be prepared for it. Fraegis

From: Kae Friday, October 27 2000, 11:14AM I can obviously only speak for myself and my own alts in this -- but then, I sure feel compelled to. When I participate in role play here and there, which I do quite a lot, I usually try to make sure that I don't do anything that any regular player with no immortal alt could have done. I don't switch into mobs, I don't do echoes, I don't load mobs, I don't use zip strings, etcetera. If I need these things, I approach another PR immortal about them just as the rest of you guys would have to. Why? Because there is no reason I should have an advantage that everyone else doesn't. However, at the time we're dealing with a scheduled tinyplot such as for example the recent Boston one -- I use echoes, mobs, items, whatever I have at my disposal, not for my character, but for the plot. I find it worth noticing that in this particular plot, all the main characters were not alts of immortals. The people who constructed the main story line in advance and briefed LadyAce and I upon it are not immortals. That's great! But it also means that I feel slightly miffed of the indirect accusation of using immortal powers to further my mortal goals, so to speak. I remember that in the Boston plot in specific, my character spent most of the time sitting in his clan hall -- why? Well, the story required it, and frankly, I was relieved it did. If you think role playing can be spammy in ONE window, try TWO. Apart from playing my own character I also played the guardian of the gate, the angel that eventually helped remove the gate, about 25 different mobbies on channels and on location, and about half the spiffy echoes and announces. It's fun -- but it's awful spammy too. Which once again lets me stress the fact that as a player, you're not really very interested in having to involve your immortal character at the same trouble spot your mortal character is. Immortal intervention is a great thing, and it's a fact that we have commands and options available that can really enhance a storyline. That's what we're here for -- well, it's one of the reasons we're here. All you need to do is ask -- preferably at least a few hours in advance, so that we can go over your idea with you, and prepare what needs preparing. Want your own tinyplot scheduled, on the events list, on boards, in the LT, etc. etc. etc.? Write up a draft and go pester one of us about it! We're always looking for good ideas. The best damn tinyplot I've ever participated in, long before I became an immortal in the first place, was written by a mortal -poke Oan ...dlig- :) -Kae

From: Elisa Friday, October 27 2000, 04:10PM Ok, I'm confused here. What is a tinyplot? What is the purpose of having one? When should we ask for a tinyplot, and when should we just do our own thing? Why would we want one, anyway?

From: LadyAce Saturday, October 28 2000, 01:44AM I consider a tinyplot to be publically-played out story with a preset beginning, and a middle/end that may have some or no scripting. A tinyplot is designed as a "mud-wide" event, and staged as such -- sometimes designed by players, sometimes designed by immorts. If you want to design a tinyplot with an imm, you'd pick out that beginning, toss ideas around, determine a day/time, and discuss what kinds of roles different players might have in it. As to why you might want one...if you have an idea for an RP even that requires a great number of players, extra levels of organization/publicity/etc....if you want to help sponsor a mud-wide rp event to encourage RP...essentially, if it's your idea of fun. A few past tinyplots: - solstice rituals - invasion of Tara - Dark Invasion - overthrowing of the archbishop of Lima - the wooing of Mistress Quickley - the Spring Feast in Sherwood - Murder in Casablanca That's all I can think of off the top of my head. They're not for everyone, stylistically. They have a tendency to emphasize the major themes of human drama and result in a large amount of storytelling rather than subtlety or development of individual characters. A few examples of where there might be significant imm help in making the event a success, but I wouldn't necessarily qualify them as a tinyplot: - the riddle of the djinn - any of the rp/pk 'clan-themed tokens' contests - weddings, parties Does this help clarify at all? I've had some requests for a help tinyplot -- I'll convert this post into a draft of it. If you haven't attended any of the items above (I tried not to mention any I knew were more than a couple years old, but time muddles together a bit in my memory) or heard about them, this might not be helpful. Please let me know where I'm not explaining sufficiently. -LA


Current Index