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Posted by Poetry on 12/14

I just wanted to say that its lame that Dusk rejected me just because I recalled him while he was AFK at the alter, and then crashed him into Aengus... just for fun. I wasnt even going to kill him, just taunt and play around alittle... oldskool style.

PK is so tame thesedays. Its just a bunch of duels. You can never get intense like in the old days... I remember real fear on Legend. PKers like Mordred that seemed to have no feelings hunting me down when I was a newbie. I had escape routes, traps, plans.. I was always prepared and always vigilent.

Thats the intense, high stakes PK that I remember. Its all about the stakes. Now, nothing matters and even oldskoolers like Dusk have adapted a sleepy attitude towards the relatively minor tensions Im trying to create.

Can someone please explain why we cant leave PKOK in place and add an option to go PERMAPKOK? Give it some convenience.. or a minor cost for the _luxury_ of PKOK. Why is this so hard to do? Why do I q orange all these people speaking against this idea... if you don't like it, don't go perma pkok.. and just duel occasionally or for RP. Doesnt that make everyone happy?


Poetry Excellence

From: Zemus Sunday, December 02 2001, 08:30AM

Not a bad idea, I would rather have all pk clans, accept all other pkill clans. If you guys dont like a clan that loots multi and stuff, get with other clans and wipe out that bad clan. dunno Im bored of this AA stuff, I lucky if I see another AA on when I log on, and if they are normally out of range. Pkill id just not the same anymore

From: Ea! Sunday, December 02 2001, 09:55AM

If we were to allow people to become pkenabled (the old style pke), which is basically what you're suggesting, people would find themselves in the situation where they're stuck in a situation where they feel harassed. Avoiding situations like that is the reason that pkok was coded in the first place.

You suggest that people shouldn't pkenable unless they are willing to take this risk... I see two problems with this: first, you suggest some advantage to pkenabling, which will make people feel they need to to maximize their advantage, and second, that history shows us that people pkenable even without liking the risks.


From: Poetry Sunday, December 02 2001, 10:02AM

If people "find themselves in the situation where they're stuck in a situation where they feel harassed" then its ok because they took that risk. If they wanted to just casually PK, the had a different option that they chose not to take. Basically, by going PermaPKOK, you are making a decision to deal with all of it.

The day to day decision of "hm, should I be PK today" has destroyed any sense of stakes in PK.

I think you guys are incredibly stubborn in acknowledging this.

Ea, you assumed so much in your response that its kind of sad

Who says that the advantage has to be an in-game advantage? Maybe just a title... or a special arragnedment for their whois list... something to differentiate and acknowledge that so and so player is a FEARLESS PKer rather than a lukewarm AA that duels untill he/she gets sick of it and decides to unenable, and enable an unknown alt for their revenge.

Im perfectly willing to sign away my rights to complain about "harassment" for a PermaPKOK flag.. and so are MANY others.

All you guys that like the current system.. Im not even suggesting that its removed! SO WHY THE HELL DO I GET RESISTANCE FROM YOU? Why are you so selfish? God, you are 10 times worse than we are.

Ea, your response was so lazy that Im disappointed. The idea has a lot of potential, doesnt hurt anyone, and is completely electable... with a very CLOSE second option (AA) to chose if you want all the PermaPKOK options without the potential harassment.

What the hell is your problem? You spend time coding useless features like the ability to put already useless healing balm on another fighter while that fighter is fighting. Why waste your time? Im so boggled. Why don't you spend time on providing more options for the players to play the way they want to?

And dont tell me that AA is exactly that. I told you it wouldnt work years ago when it went in... and I was right. What more do you want? PK is so sleepy... a bunch of lukewarm duels. If you dont like my ideas to fix it, then start brainstorming because it sucks right now.

From: Ea! Sunday, December 02 2001, 12:43PM

Er, a few comments:

First, nothing in my post said anything about in game vs. out of game advantages -- even out of game advantages encourage people to follow that route.

I also never made any assumptions that you were suggesting removing PKOK.

My problem with pkenabled is that it caused so much work for the admin department that the imm staff was seriously considering moving the mud to be a non-pk mud. Pkok has basically solved this problem.

Under the old system, people were "willing to sign away their rights to complain about 'harassment'" -- yet they still complained. Nothing that you write convinces me that adding in pkenabled would change that.

As for coding priorities, this is not a coding issue -- it's a policy issue. When I wrote the original code for pkok I wrote it in such a fashion that the mud could support both pkok and pkenabled simultaneously with no ill affects. This has not changed.


From: Nepon Tuesday, December 04 2001, 12:52PM

heh, personally i would have rather seen the imm staff make legend non-pkill. that woudl have solved all the problems that people are complaining about right off the bat. sure, the player base would have dropped initially, but oh well.

-my 2 cents


From: Chaykin Tuesday, December 04 2001, 09:03PM

Seems to me that by its very nature, the co-existence of pkok and permapk would result in little or no extra workload for the admin immorts, because there'd be something for everyone. If someone wants to be permapk, put in a warning message explaining the risks they are taking, sorta like the big long spammy thing you get when you are about to archive a char.

Then if things get too hot for them, give them the option to remove their permapk status BUT they may only do it ONCE...in other words, if they decide to "get out of the kitchen", there's no going back. That forces them to think long and hard about the decisions they make, while leaving the admins covered in dealing with any problems that arise.

And then of course, for those that want to use it, there'd still be pkok.


From: Fraegis Friday, December 07 2001, 03:01PM

Uhm, Poetry, I sorta get your point, and though I don't share it, I agree somewhat. But please answer one simple question in return....

if MANY people want a permapkok option, why don't they go AA and stay that way? The risk of old-style pkilling must be the same then, and added is the risk of being attacked by people who suddenly accepts you, you have the old 'always-alert' thing.

If many people really wanted old pkok back, how come they haven't gone AA now? Basically, I believe most people actually like pkok.


From: Chaykin Friday, December 07 2001, 07:17PM

I'll give you two reasons why:

a) They don't trust other people to not reject them on a whim, and
b) They don't trust themselves to not reject others on a whim.

From: Akai_Hayate Sunday, December 09 2001, 03:22AM

This will prolly never get read now, but ima post anyways!

First off, its only cause yer got yer guilt complex that you care when people complain, I say if daddy tells me not to stick a gun in my mouth and I do anyways, I really cant whine when my brains are all over the wall So warn em before hand about thier risk, and if they complain tell em to do what normal people do, redeem or perma. Its like when I wanna be a dex mage and then I decide dex mages suck and I wanna be a str druid, do I have a right to whine to the imms about it? Would they even listen? No cause it was my stupid desicision, which turned out to be a bad one, the only person I can blame I me, so enable em and forget about em, sall good And second(or fifth) off to fraegis, most of the old pkillers are either vocally retired, or are already AA the reason there is still a problem is half the pkillers left the mud in disgust the day pkok went in, and the other half has been AA for what, 2 years, and gettin pissed, and slowly drifting away too...whens the last time you saw craven, or splat, or poetr poetry?

anyways, back to playing Mosh Mosh revolution for me.

From: Stain Sunday, December 09 2001, 03:42AM

Even though without pkill at all I would not ever log on here, I have to agree with Nepon. It would have been better to rip it entirely than leave this reeking, rotting shadow in it's wake.

As for the admins being less busy, it's because they are BY FAR less active in general since pkok. I was warned 9 times with my last alt and even though I have done those very same things repeatedly with this char, I havn't received a single warning. Don't credit pkok with the lighter work load for the admins, they are just getting lazy.

Personally, I think that the whole 'people would find themselves in the situation where they're stuck in a situtuation where they feel harrassed' argument is absolute bull--=CENCORED=--. I never saw any one who minded their own buisness or didn't get overly emotional about things targeted in any way that might possibly be considered harassment Basically, what I am trying to say is that they bring it on themselves and then run to the imms crying foul. Way I see it, PkOk gave the very people adding the most to the admin work load exactly what they wanted- removal of accountability for their actions. They can be loud and emotional and insult/attack any AA they choose, with the ability to reject when they are retaliated against. How the hell is any kind of rp supposed to last longer than a breif moment if people are constantly flip-floping? Wasn't that one of the most benificial things pkok was supposed to do for the mud, help mix rp/pk more? Well, maybe the imms wern't saying that but alts of 3 seperate immorts were saying those things loud and long on open channels prior to the implimentation of pkok. The reason AA isn't like that is because you can still reject.

That also means that people who are not AA can attack you with other non-AA friends of theirs and your clannys or buds can't help you out. Sorry, my mind kinda jumped ahead of myself a little bit, that should have said 'The reason AA isn't like old pkill'. Also, I can't fight a group as well, since unless they are all AA crashing them into each other is not possible.

An idea I hear AA's mumbling about constantly is that _ALL_ Pkill clans should auto accept _ALL_ other clans. Also, the tick timer should be much longer, make it a real decision weather or not to pkill/accept someone. Right now, SomeDamnPud could come straif me after I died and then go sit in a 1 man room and wait off the timer none the worse for wear. And regardless of how long you make the timer, I suppose that would be true, but at least with a longer timer it's much more of an inconveniance to such turds.

My biggest gripe about pkok is that it has actually caused there to be _LESS_ rp in pkill. I miss good ol' fashioned RP wars, those were really the whole fun of this game, even if I was on the losing end for the most part. Ronnie was accused of harassment COUNTLESS times, I am sure, but he brought more RP to pkill than anyone else I can remember. About the harrasment charges though, again, it was the 'harassed' party's own fault. They either chose to involve themselves in an extreme rp, or chose to do something that would leave the victim harboring animositys.

From where I sit, the differance between now and then is the level of commitment to your character as a whole. While there are probably less 'disposable pk chars' now, the only reason is that you don't have to redeem to enable another one and 'whipe the slate clean' so to speak. Before you had to hit 50million xp before you could get out of the pkill responsibilitys YOU CREATED FOR YOURSELF. Now you have only to wait 10 tics and your sins are, for all intents and purposes, forgiven. Before pkok you either weathered the storm and either made right your wrong or destroyed your enemy(s), or you permad. All that time you spent making that char, gone. That sounds like a reasonable consequence for being saved from your own choices to me. All that made for people that took pkill more seriously and actually got involved with clan affairs and grudges and such.

"It will attract more people to pkill" "It will bring more rp to the pkill community" "It will make the mud less devided between Pkill and non-pkill". Horseshhhhhtuff I say! All lies!

Pkill has failed to do any of those things, and has in fact done the exact opposite on all counts.

-the somebody you are not accepting.

From: Testboy Friday, December 14 2001, 05:30AM

-shake- morons are STILL running this place.


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