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Posted by Milamber on 04/11

Hello. I'm drunk.... Buw anyway.. We all want old pk back.. Make only one AA per char. only AA can acept AA and u can still have pkok in... And sure, reject AA is one redeem... Ppl can try pkok first with several chars and see what they are possible to do... they can choose AA and see Get experience and be good.... -Milamber

From: Fraegis Wednesday, April 04 2001, 11:33PM Hello. I'm sober.... But anyway.. Not everyone want old pkill back. Those who do always assume to speak on everyone else's behalf. They don't. Go AA, fight those you want to fight. Those you don't want to fight, you can reject. How hard is it to do? People can still kill you when you are healing, and then reject you, but only once. Cause then you can reject them and tell others to reject them too. Really can't be that hard, I think.

From: Sallah Wednesday, April 04 2001, 11:37PM I think, Fraegis, that you are once again overlooking the fact that they aren't looking for an alternative to pkok but merely an addition to it that provides the option of old style pk in addition to the pkok everyone else enjoys. You are also conveniently forgetting that when you're accept all it's extremely easy to get attacked, killed, multied and/or looted by someone who will reject you before you have the chance to get them back and (if necessary) get a stolen item back. Pkok is here to stay, I just don't see why some people who have nothing to lose by it are so adamantly opposed to another option for those who desire it. It's a system that favors and encourages those who pkill responsibly, and discourages those who don't. Really can't be that hard, I think. Sallah

From: Milamber Wednesday, April 04 2001, 11:46PM i gave my opinion anyway... I think there is a solution and it is not to hard to put in on... If i would be not so lazy and would be an imm i would do it myself... -Milamber

From: Dnegel Thursday, April 05 2001, 01:41AM "Make only one AA per char. only AA can acept AA" how many people are AA? If there were more AA people... there wouldn't be a want for "OldPK" would there?

From: Yvonne Thursday, April 05 2001, 04:05AM "If there were more AA people, there wouldn't be a want for 'OldPK' would there?" I think there would be. At least, I'd still want it. Part of it is for the reason that Sallah mentioned. Being AA leaves you far more open to being harassed than being clanned ever did in the old system, despite PKOK's stated purpose. This isn't to say that I have anything particularly against PKOK, but being AA does have penalties which being clanned never did. The big thing, though, that I miss about the old system is the pk community. I'm not talking about the specific people - in fact most of the people who were around when I started pkilling are still around. I don't know, maybe the old system did divide the MUD too much, but it sure was a fun division. PK wasn't something you could jump in and out of, you were in it for the long haul - or at least until you went XPing or permad. I think it's kinda sad now that the AA people need stars by their names to know they're AA. Under the old system you -knew- who was PK because it was a relatively stable group. And to me, that was part of the charm. Okay, I guess I've done enough nostalgizing for one day. But yeah, count me among the people who would like some sort of "oldschool" PK option on top of what we've got now. If it's not possible, fair enough, but if it is, I'd jump at it like a flash.

From: Testboy Thursday, April 05 2001, 04:18AM Don't need to go back to just 1 char / person to fix pk.

From: Mandarb Thursday, April 05 2001, 09:21AM you always get to uptight about changes to pkok, chill. Just because YOU don't enjoy pk doesn't mean the rest of us should suffer. They are suggesting an addition to pkok that will not affect the way pkok works for the majority of people, so whats the big deal. Its not ever as easy as you seem to think it is. For one thing in the current system, yvonne is right, there is no sense of community anymore, no sense of belonging. I can aa or not aa as much or as little as I want because in the current system you can be what you want to be. I don't mind pkok, there are many good points to it, but there are possible problems with it as well. Just because its a perfect fix in your eyes fraegis does not mean in any means that its the perfect fix for the rest of the mudding population. I think this idea is as good as any, while allowing you to still "dabble" with alts, you have one "main" pkiller. Good job Milamber, and congrats on your victory last night :) -Mandarb

From: Marcel Thursday, April 05 2001, 02:00PM We do not "all" want the old pkill back. I for one certainly do not. Be careful with generalizations like that. Apart from that, I want to beat my "remove the - (star) from AA" horse around some more. Get rid of that, and we may have more people jump in -- when they don't get to be auto-featured on other people's 'shopping lists'. Marcel Alexander, Esquire.

From: Akai_Hayate Thursday, April 05 2001, 04:11PM To fraegis and marcel, is it really too much to assume milamber meant the pkillers, when he say's we all? When i say well all refering to grendels, do you assume i mean the whole mud? And as long as i'm drunk on rage, enough of you damn legend cult people trashing a goddamn idea or opinion, not because it's bad idea, but because of a typo, or misuse of words, or whatever, god you people drive me insaner! -Akai, hates you all.

From: Zalbag Thursday, April 05 2001, 04:16PM see Marcel you're the kind of person that if you lose you will reject the person and never fight them again I know you aren't that good so eventually you'll be accepting what 2 people? The fault is there are too many little pk groups around and what people like Milamber and some others want is a more organized bigger group. not just little factions who accept each other. he isn't proposing to eliminate the little groups, but adding on a bigger yet organized group. Zalbag

From: Sallah Thursday, April 05 2001, 04:29PM I have to agree with Akai. It isn't too difficult to infer that when a statement like "we all want oldstyle pk" is made it's basically meant as "serious pkillers want oldstyle pk". It doesn't take a brain surgeon to read between the lines and know what is going on, and if the only argument you can make against an oldpk option is to quibble over the language in the posts in favor of it, that tells me you don't have an argument that is actually based in logic. As to the "removing the star will increase participation in pk" argument, you are missing the point. The idea behind an oldpk option isn't to increase participation in pk, but just to offer an alternative which would make pk more fun for a bunch of people. It would affect pkok in no way whatsoever. If you like pkok, stick with that. But if you liked the way pk once was, you could go that way too. I still have yet to hear a logical argument why this is not a viable option. You may say that it's a very small number of people who want pkok back, but I beg to differ. Although there are only 5 or 6 people who are very vocal, I believe there are more people who would participate in oldpk than you think. And those who do are the ones who like oldpk because it fosters responsible behavior in pk, because every action may have a consequence. We should encourage that sort of behavior, not dismiss it just because the posts in favor of it aren't literary masterpieces. Sallah

From: Rictor Friday, April 06 2001, 03:03PM I for one, would also enjoy having a new type of PKiller adeed thats just like the old school PK, so not that 5 or 6 can be 6 or 7 =) The main problem with PKOK, is that the boys/girls get to play with the men/woman, I'm not saying that I'm that good at PKill, but once upon a time, there was a little respect for someone putting there charecter which they worked on on the line in PK, PKOK is very unrealistic, maybe thats a problem. Maybe the problem is now we dont have to worry about surviving to the next day now because there are so many things built into the code that our survival is assured, wheres the fun in that. People dont sky dive from 10 feet off the ground into a pool of water, it is all about the risk, the gain, the glory, the honor, the powertrip whatever you want, PKill was and always had been self-correcting I'm sorry if a few peoples feelings got hurt in the process, but only one team wins the superbowl, only one clan wins the war, only one multi/ looter will be able to get away with it for so long before hes hunted down like a common criminal. I've had multiple things looted from me, I've been multi'd on countless occasions, I've been called names, I've been threatened with perma on a char I spent 1000's of hours on, but I have never been harrassed in my 4 years here. Rictor

From: LadyAce Friday, April 06 2001, 07:22PM We don't want to have the old pk system operating in conjunction with pkok. The reason for that is this: There were flaws in the pk system which no amount of safeguards could fix. Not warnings or bannings or long speeches. In particular, that flaw was the fact that people in pk were subject to the whims and bad behavior of everyone else in pk. PKOK eliminates that flaw in that you can participate in pk while still choosing your opponents. I know that this is the same thing I've said before, but people post the same ideas that have been said before, and then they complain that we don't respond.... -LA

From: Milamber Friday, April 06 2001, 11:07PM Then start second part of Legend at different port - only pk :p

From: Sallah Saturday, April 07 2001, 03:10AM But LadyAce...ahem...the issue you mention doesn't exist in the case of an oldpk option. With such an option, you're not subject to anyone's whims and bad behavior except for the others who have accepted the same terms as you have. And you also haven't addressed the issue that under pkok, accept alls are just as subject to those whims, only the person doing the whimming and bad-behavior-ing can then shut pk off, never being account- able for their whims and bad behavior. Is that really the idea? Sallah

From: Sandra Saturday, April 07 2001, 08:32AM My question is this: Why can't those people that want the oldpk option just get together, accept each other, and then play the way they want? Why is more code needed? You want 'oldpk', post on the warboard a thread that says for everyone wanting it to append, and accept each person that's appended, then you have what you want with no new code added. I'm kinda boggled at the fact that this seems so difficult for people to do. Does it really take that much thought? -Sandra

From: Ganymede Saturday, April 07 2001, 11:26AM Because that makes it into too much of a club. Think about how difficult it would be for a new person to join in. Coordinating that many people to all make sure they have exactly the same accept list is unlikely at best, even with the best intentions of doing so. Ganymede et al.

From: Sandra Saturday, April 07 2001, 01:05PM And making a totally different, and seperate part of pkok does'nt make it into a 'club'? Post on the board, you don't need to coordinate any- thing. Just post and append, then accept all those that append.

From: DoctorEvil Saturday, April 07 2001, 01:47PM The big problem with what Sandra suggests as I see it is that even if we are all big talkers I know that when things got ugly some of us "hardcore" pkillers would be tempted to reject to save their own hide. As strange as it sounds we don't feel safe unless we know that it can't be turned off. Anyway thats just me...

From: Dnegel Sunday, April 08 2001, 11:36PM For those of you that seem to think they would feel the temptation to reject just so save their own hide aren't really interested in playing PK by the old rules anyway. And for those of you worried about people appending to the post and then re-negging on the deal of acceptance.. all it takes is one failed attack to realize this person isn't playing by the rules and the appropriate append would be created and said person would be neglected. It's been said many many times that if people really wanted to play PK like they did in the old days they are surely able to with this code. The problem is.. too many people are worried about those who would theoretically abuse the system. It doesn't take too much of a brain to realize that the beauty of PKOK is if you don't like the way the other people play.. you don't have to play with them. And if they harrass you to play with them.. you report it. I figured there would be initial rejectment to the change put in by the immortals.. but come on. It's been over a year or something and you people are still whining about "Old PK". No one complains about the XP system change anymore. (Well.. not much) No one complains much about the EQ changes. Why is the PKOK issue being beating like a dead horse? It's simple. You play with who wants to play with you. You do not play with whomever you don't want to play with, or doesn't want to play with you. Are you all so insecure that you need to have non-consentual satisfaction upon someone else? Dnegel, a major dork who doesn't care about PK or PKOK but has his opinions that the rest of you are acting like a bunch of horse's asses.

From: Sallah Monday, April 09 2001, 04:44AM You're oversimplifying the issue Dnegel. Yes you can reject people who harass you, but saying this person killed you, multied you, took your favorite string, and then rejected you, rejecting them back doesn't do a whole lot of good and it certainly doesn't get your string back, now does it? In order to reject those who harass you, they have to first do the harassing. Then you reject them, and then they can either use their alts to do it more, or get their friends to. You can report them, but by the time something is done, they've potentially already done a lot of damage. By the time the anti-harassment measures of pkok fall into place, it may be too late. The items they stole are long gone, passed around to their friends, and since they rejected you after doing it, there isn't a whole lot you can do about it. If you think this is fair and equitable to those who just want to pk responsibly, then they aren't the horse's asses. Sallah

From: QuacK Tuesday, April 10 2001, 01:24AM Would it make the victim out to be a whiner if they posted nicely on the Warboard that PlayerA killed, multied, looted and rejected them. Could the rest of the PK player base, supposedly intolerant of such issues either reject PlayerA and/or seek justice on them? If PK is supposed to be this community thing, why are people made to stand alone and allowed to be victimized? I as a person not really into PK would immediatly opt out of PK after such an experience if no action was taken. I'm not asking for new PKers to be given any slack as far as being killed, but as a PK community you need to enforce those that do not act the way you want. Cut and dry, one individual cannot PK, for they would have no opponents. If you want to have many opponents, you need to give them a reason to trust you as an opponent. If you behave in an honorable manner, despite perhaps having an unhonorable RP, you will have your opponents. Everyone understands that some characters are not designed to be nice, and they perhaps will multi or loot. But those said Players will retain their honor if they allow retribution, no matter how small the chance, to be allowed to be attempted.

From: Sallah Tuesday, April 10 2001, 02:29AM That's just the point Quack. The people without the honor are the ones who don't allow retribution when they multi or loot, they're the abusers. They're why this whole thread is taking place. Because it's possible for them to do just that, and if you are accept all, there is no defense against it until it's already been done to you. You mention that the PK community should "seek justice on them". How exactly do you propose to go about doing this when the abuser isn't accepting anybody? You've illustrated the points in favor of a change to accept all or an oldpk option quite well. Thanks! Sallah

From: QuacK Wednesday, April 11 2001, 01:16AM I have stated before.... If one person is found to abuse the system the "PK community" will surely know about it. And if everyone rejects that person, they won't be able to PK, then would they? Yes, one person would have to become a victim for this to happen... but life sucks sometimes. Granted this person can just keep making new characters. But surely they will grow tired of making a new character every time they abuse the system. Why should the system be changed back to the way it was. Are you all completely unable to use the system to it's fullest extent as dictated by several Immortals? Read between the lines and stop banging your head against the same Mantra "People abuse the system, change the system" think of it this way "People abuse the system, How can I use the system to keep them from abusing it?" REJECT! Is it that crushing to your pride to be AA and reject whomever is not acting in a manner that reduces your fun? Are you so insecure that you cann't accept the taunting of one fool with no honor who wants you to accept them so they can multi and loot you and reject you? As it's been stated before by Rufus.. you can only reject so many people. Can said abuser reject EVERYONE? And even if they did.. then who would they fight? You may not be able to kill the abuser. You may never get your string back. Buy by God... you can surely make the abuser's game simply unpleasent or impossible to play.

From: Kintare Wednesday, April 11 2001, 03:31AM Lessee, "deal with the abuse, life sucks sometimes." Wasn't this why pkok was put in in the first place? Kintare


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