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Posted by Fear on 05/31

well, I was warned for this once, so I'll post it with more thought. I jumped someone, they rented. I jumped that persons friend, and killed him. I stole his cyclopes eye, with intentions of making the first guy come back to fight me to get it back. Later on, I log on my alt. the first person, who rented out on me is on his alt. he kills me LD, and tells me he did it because of what my alt did to his alt and his alts friend. again, he admitted to doing this, and I have the log to prove it. Now, I have a certain Admin Imm who claims this person did nothing wrong, and broke no rules. Please, post your thoughts on this.

From: Fraegis Saturday, May 26 2001, 08:56AM Lesson learned : Don't loot?

From: Chanel Saturday, May 26 2001, 09:25AM looting isn't illegal, destructive crossplay is. I don't think the question is whether or not Fear did the right thing, but whether or not the other player was destructive crossplaying or not. Having had a warning from Dominic about a year ago for the exact same thing, I'm guessing it should be considered destructive crossplay, and should be punishable. -Chanel, Spiffy Coven Witch.

From: Fraegis Saturday, May 26 2001, 10:33AM Didn't say looting was illegal, but since it often cause trouble like this it might be better not to loot? The tough news is that Legend isn't democratic...Not even american democracy rules here. An admin made a decision, and so it is. If not satisfied with that decision, one can either take it to the head of the department (Zandy, I think), or Kaige. That is sorta the end to it, really.

From: Milamber Saturday, May 26 2001, 10:31AM I hate warnings... I dont trust immortals.

From: Vandervecken Saturday, May 26 2001, 11:40PM Don't tell folks who your alts are.

From: Akai_Hayate Sunday, May 27 2001, 07:17AM You should be concentrating on the jerk who broke the rules, not the minor part of the problem like looting -peer fraegis- how you get that solution. ..is waaaay beyond me...'Hey officer that drunk driver just ran over my so Son! Well then tell your son not to try crossing the street... and getting to the real issue...one of my friends got jumped once, and i a 'ed to a pkiller to help him out, the second i logged on i got a very scar scary threat from an admin warning me against doing what i was doing, this person did it and was stupid enough to admit it?! they should burn! bah, just got a wierd tell and lost my train of non-thought so ill just say uh, burn the rule breakers! and burn fraegis for his nonstop wierd comments about pkill being bad, no matter what the topic is.

From: Ganymede Sunday, May 27 2001, 04:33PM Skirting the issue and using an answer like 'don't loot' is pretty irresponsible, imo. Aside from not addressing the question (whether or not what said person did is illegal, which it seems to me it should be) it's rather condescending. On the other hand, this issue probably should have been brought up privately rather than on a board. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be dealt with. If this example isn't desctructive crossplay, mind telling me what is? Ganymede et al.

From: Christopher Sunday, May 27 2001, 05:01PM I don't know if the issue is destructive crossplay or is it OOC stuff. Either way I think it's probably considered wrong.

From: Chanel Sunday, May 27 2001, 06:46PM The reason this was brought to boards is to let pkillers know that Chocorua considers all of this perfectly legal. I think pkillers need to be aware of that.

From: Drakkon Sunday, May 27 2001, 08:52PM this is an obvious example of destructive crossplay, killing someones alt for something their other alt did, is totally out of the question it's almost like if i jumped sl and killed someone, then a person on that run logged on their alt and killed me, they would be warned :P this is pretty much the same thing... think about it :P

From: Chocorua Sunday, May 27 2001, 10:57PM I would appreciate it if my view points were posted by me. I may or may not agree with the majority of the imm staff on this issue and its currently under discussion. Please keep my opinions out of this until an official ruling is decided on. If anyone wants to know my opinions, and i hardly think that anyone does with teh welcome i get everytime i am on and visible then mudmail or email me at chocorua@legendmud.org. I will reply as soon as i get a chance. Chocorua

From: Fear Monday, May 28 2001, 03:56AM I'm pretty sure that mortals have the right to know when decisions like this, that make no sense, are made by the immortal staff, Chocorua. And if I'm not allowed to post what I did, you would have erased the original post. So save us all the grief of ehining about it.

From: Siachet Monday, May 28 2001, 05:53AM I was under the impression that destructive crossplay is, or was illegal in pkill, and this was an exception to the general rule that crossplay is discouraged but not illegal. But when pkok went in, there was talk of players being able to use it to protect themselves from this t of thing, without needing to involve admin (that was the reason behind allowing multiple enabled characters). I don't think it was ever made entirely clear to players whether this meant such actions were no longer illegal. Personally, I think they still should be illegal (the mere introd of channelgag wasn't taken to mean that its ok to swear on chat because pl can deal with it themselves, for example). I don't think most players want have reject lists a mile long in order to protect themselves from the 20 cross-playing alts of each of 10 players, but thats just my opinion. Of course thats where the cross-play is blatantly obvioius. Where it can't be proven, the reject command is there as a handy tool. Sia

From: Chocorua Monday, May 28 2001, 10:26AM I am not sure that it is whining to ask to be able to post my own view points. Sia has it right about the reject command wether its decided that the situation warrants a warning or not reject should be used to protect yourself from people that you feel that you can not trust. The pkill community as a whole should find a mechanism of keeping each other informed as to who can and can not be trusted. Keep in mind that revealing alts is illegal here but perhaps if you published a list of people that are untrustworthy without connecting them to each other you might just be able to help each other protect yourselves from those who wish to abuse the system. Again I wish to be able to post my own viewpoints on issues so please don't post opinions in my name. Chocorua

From: Fear Monday, May 28 2001, 01:21PM I've not posted, or tried to post your viewpoints in any way Chocorua, I've simply posted what you said to me. And I find it funny that you take so much offense in it. It only makes me think you know that you were wrong, but have too much pride to admit such.

From: Kendrik Monday, May 28 2001, 07:32PM Reject can be used in that regard, but don't clan accepts override personal ones? Kendrik

From: Sallah Monday, May 28 2001, 09:56PM Good point Kendrik.

From: Fear Tuesday, May 29 2001, 02:39AM how can I possibly be accept all, and know all of his alts in order to reject them guys? Come on, think before you post. -Fear

From: Fraegis Tuesday, May 29 2001, 02:29PM Stay at the issue at hands? Well, the looting kinda is, I would say. I dont mind pkill, I am all for pkill. I am also all against looting, which creates these situations. We players can't do much about rule-breaking, except reporting it to the imms, and if we don't like their decision, we can appeal to Kaige in the last end. End of that. But we can do something about avoiding creating those situations. Like : Don't loot. Very simple, not against pkill, and quite on topic. Fraegis

From: Zar Tuesday, May 29 2001, 11:30PM my god, you guys are ridiculous... first of all fraegis, why must you insist looting is the issue when the issue at hand is CHEATING looting is not illegal, nor will ever be illegal (i hope) it is a perfectly acceptable thing that has been used for ages, and i only wish that players like you would grow up to realize that this is a damn game!! things like looting HAPPEN in a game, and you should learn to accept it because it is legal and therefor a part of this game. as far as Fear's original post, i would hope that if what chant vina gam dyn ex said was true about Chocorua's decision, that it wou (fear) would be overturned by an immortal with more power, because that is blatant cheating, and i hope the perpetrator is punished dearly

From: Fraegis Tuesday, May 29 2001, 11:42PM I know the issue is cheating. But if all players on legend said 'Hey, that was cheating', and the imms say 'nope, wasn't'? What then? Then it isn't cheating. No matter how much we discuss it here, and whether this or that person thinks it is cheating, doesnt matter. The imms decide that solely. And if Kaige was appealed to, and she agreed with the imm saying it was ok, then there is nothing to do. Very simple, really. So I found it more logical to comment on the things we players -could- do something about. Like looting. It creates problems 99% of the time. So why loot? The old 'I did intend to give it back' have been heard before when a looter wanted to justify his or her actions. And my god, Zar, why must you insist it is just a game then still be so upset about the ruling? If it is just a game to you, then what is the problem if the judges/referees/imms have decided that something is not against the rules? It's just a game, right? (and on another note : Aye, I think too that the person who logged on an alt and killed Fear did something illegal. But the imms have a final say in that) Fraegis

From: Fear Wednesday, May 30 2001, 08:20AM OK, was I wrong for looting? probably. Yet Fraegis is trying to say that looting is that bad of a thing, it's really not. or else it wouldn't be a part of this game, period. There have been, people in the past, who have abused it, but I've not seen that in a very long while. So you can sit back, and blame me for looting all you want. But when the facts of this problem present themselves, it has absolutely nothing to do with looting, and everything to do with someone killing my alt, with thier own alt, for something that this char did. Lets thinks about this, Chanel (my alt) died because of what Fear did. Do I not have the right to play two seperate chars? Has Legend come to a point where everyone knows everyone elses alts, so there's no point in even giving the new ones names? maybe next I'll make Fear2, and later on down the road I'll make Fear3, or Fear_Junior. Or Perhaps even My_Alt_Is_Fear. This is rediculous, people. I think all pk'ers should append to this, and let immortals know that we simply -won't- accept this being legal. I couldn't care less about my alt dying, honestly. what I care about is pkill in general. If this is accepted, there is -NOTHING- that stops someone from dying to you, and then immediatly logging onto an alt and killing you. There needs to be a very clear rule about this, and it needs to be strictly enforced.

From: Shemp Wednesday, May 30 2001, 02:17PM Not to defend Chocura, but WTF who cares what you have logs of, and I don't mean to say you are a liar Fear, because you are not. But, logs can be doctored, they are just text files. I think an ADMIN IMM has to witness a violation to issue a warning/banning. So, get over it. Just reject the person, and all the alts you know. Or, kill them back, who cares. I just makes me f'ing sick that there are 5 year olds on here that need to cry/whine to an Immortal everytime 'something doesn't go their way'. And _NO_ I am not an alt of anyone involved, in fact I don't even know who the other person is...

From: Siachet Thursday, May 31 2001, 01:20PM If this was a violation of the rules, you could just as well say it would be irresponsible NOT to report it, because players are supposed to help uphold the rules. Just because you don't care that somebody is multiplaying for example, it doesn't mean you shouldn't report it. And most violations would not be witnessed by admin directly, unless a player already alerted them to it. That doesn't just apply to cross-play. Sia

From: Fraegis Thursday, May 31 2001, 04:31PM -nod Siachet- But I do agree with the middle part of Shemp's append...Reject the persons and things should avoid a repetition. What sickens me is a little different, though...It's those above-mentioned 5 year olds on here, who cheats and lies whenever they see a chance to do it. 2


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