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Balance and Design

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Posted by Chocorua on 09/22

First of all let me say this, its been said before and will be many times in the future. Legend is changing and evolving every day. Over the years different character types have come and gone as "the best" or "the favorite" types to play. During the time when my life mostly consisted of sleep and legend DEX fighters were king. I had a pkiller with 342 hitpoints that could kill almost anyone one on one. Now there are many more skilled players than me and I died a fair amount but then DEX was all that really mattered, more con and str were just bonuses. Over time the balance has shifted to create, con, cause, str back to dex, perc, and all around. one day Headbutt is king and the next day a single bash is all that is needed to win a fight. All of these circumstances are results of the changes put in in order to try and counteract one type of character being superior to the others. Will we ever get all characters balanced? NO. Do we want to... yeah I am sure someone is stubborn enough to believe it possible. I personally don't think that it will ever be truely balanced. I think that if it were there would be a level of competition taken away that I like to see, people making new characters and trying to prove their strategy the best or atleast better. Now people will complain that the balance issues are forcing others to gro group to kill certain mobs. Yes. Soem mobs are designed and some areas are designed to not be solod. When an area or mob or type of mob becomes v vulnerable to a particularly strategy or exploit, expect that it may someday get changed. If it doesn't that may or may not be an oversight on our part. Just a few random thoughts. on design and balance. Chocorua ps. its not supposed to be easy, if things get harder, stop whining and find another way to do it. Make us work to keep up with you.

From: Wes Tuesday, August 28 2001, 06:30PM Why even bother finding a new way to do something? You stated that once t the method is exploited it will merely be changed? Whats the point? -shrug- Im not a builder, and I have never built an area ever, but I am sure I would change the mob, and not something different so they would not be able to be solo'd

From: Sammael Tuesday, August 28 2001, 06:44PM that post had about as much inspiration as one of bush's tax cut talks. And for the record, dex is still king.

From: Tirzah Wednesday, August 29 2001, 01:12AM This game is supposed to be fun. No matter what the char type we can all find our own level of challenge here, from easy to hard, depending on our mood. That should stay, it's part of what makes this place fun. We don't always want tough challenges, sometimes we just want to relax. Too often in this game, tedium is used to make something 'harder', for example the perc quest is tedious. But it doesn't make it harder, more challenging, more fun. It just makes it boring. This latest change is an example of 'let's make something more tedious and say we're making it less easy'. Levelling in the high levels is already boring, no matter what the char type - see the last Q&A - and now it's been made even more tedious for create mages. It's not even as if this change makes mobs like Metacomat harder. He always did take out homunculi in one round anyway. So this change hasn't hit the people hitting the so-called group mobs, it's hit the people trying to level without jumping on the SL/PD/AT leech bandwagon. If this change was a response to a few creates soloing group mobs ... change the mobs, don't change a whole class. There are already mobs that creates won't touch. And don't say we just want it too easy, that's a copout that ignores the feelings of the playerbase. Tirzah

From: Chaykin Wednesday, August 29 2001, 01:35AM I agree that a perfectly balanced mud is virtually impossible. But saying so, and using it as a reason not to make balance changes, is like refusing to clean your house because it will just get dirty again. You still have to make an effort to make it look presentable. Perfect balance may be a dream, but there are -degrees- of balance. In some ways, Legend is highly imbalanced. I've played many, many RPG-style games both online and otherwise, and most of them had--not perfect balance--but better balance. It's just a matter of putting in the time. I'm not saying the immortals should drop what they're doing and devote all their time to balancing the mud. I know there are additions and updates, even skilltrees someday, that will go in eventually and change the balance of things once again, requiring even more balance changes. I think the imms are right to put off some balance issues in favor of getting in the new stuff. But while we're setting aside the balance issues, let's be sure we're doing it for the right reasons. Chay

From: Chocorua Wednesday, August 29 2001, 01:00PM Not sure if Chaykin misunderstoof my meaning or if as usual my typing skills misrepresented my position here. By saying that a completely balanced system isn't possible I wasn't saying that we shouldn't try or that we wouldn't try. Just meant that at any given time there will likely be one combination of stats, equipment and type of character that is considered the best. Don't ever expect that to stay that way Things will change and challenges will be put in place. Some people will always think that if soemthing is made harder that its not just harder its more tedious. I happen to agree that the approach to balancing by making things take longer isn't always the best plan but soemtimes its the only way to adjust the amount of effort vs. the reward towards a more balanced situation. I posted this seperately from the create mage discussion because I believe it applies to a wider view of the game. Justify your complaints against change all you want but when you boil all of it down, people are generally just angry that its not as easy anymore, or not as rewarding. Explore the game, if you think that PD and SL are the only ways to level a character quickly then you have a very narrow view of what is out there. Chocorua

From: Tirzah Wednesday, August 29 2001, 01:17PM My point was that at the moment I don't hit the PD/SL/AT trail. I think I've been to PD 10 times since it went in (including the healers and recaller alts), and to AT even less. But if levelling high level chars gets even more boring than it already is (and imms acknowledged that it is boring at the last Q&A), then people who up til now have chosen to level elsewhere will start to rethink their position. And hey, why shouldn't I be angry that it's not as rewarding? Isn't that part of the reason anyone plays any game - because they find it rewarding? I understand your point about making this place challenging, but you don't seem to get my point - that people come here not just to be challenged (although yes, that is fun), but people also like to unwind here. There is a balance to be struck between your view of a challenging environment, and an environment that players find enjoyable and rewarding. And that's the most important balance of all. Tirzah

From: Chaykin Wednesday, August 29 2001, 03:09PM Yeah, I did kinda misunderstand; sorry Choc. I'm not sure I agree that there is necessarily always going to be one overpowering chartype if enough balance work is done someday, but I don't really have any evidence to support that beyond what I've seen in other games of this type. And I'm no coder, so who am I to say? Still, I'm optimistic that someday, there will be a point where: - All of the major features of Legend that have been planned since day one are installed. - Most of the major bugs have been squished. - Enough tweaking has been done on the mud, new features and all, that any (or at least most) chartype offers a healthy set of pros and cons that's not eclipsed by the others. Of course, since most of that is so far down the line, people are still going to have issues with the imbalance here and now. It's kind of a catch-22 situation, but what can you do? Chay

From: Chocorua Wednesday, August 29 2001, 03:24PM one point that I think i left out and is overlooked more often by players and immortals is that generally you get about the same amount of enjoyment out of a game like Legend as the effort you put into it. Now there will always be a subset of people out there that want the easy road and are only happy when they can succeed with very little effort. Legend I hope is not going to be a place where that type of person is comfortable. Of course an argument can be made that there are MANY ofther aspects of Legend aside from leveling and becoming the best at soemthing or getting as many hps as possible on you rstr dex fighter so you can solo soemthing huge without any healing or calming. (thought hat is fun) If you find soemthing isn't as fun as it might have been before look at the whole picture. Was there a reason it was changed? If you disagree with that reason is it better to ask why or for an explaination? Would it be better to publically condemn the people who made the change (and who I always liek to point out get no benefit from being staff here, a number of people are poorer every year because of it) or to try and take teh high road and try to reach a compromise. Often when a change like the create mage changes happens the players response from the immortal side feels like a list of demands instead of a list of well thought out points of criticism. anyhow more random thoughts from me... Chocorua

From: Tirzah Wednesday, August 29 2001, 08:06PM I guess there's been a communication breakdown or misunderstanding. When I look at those 33 appends, and the subsequent threads I see constructive suggestions not demands, I see at least one post asking what this change was targetted at, I see several posts giving test results as players tried the change out with different chars so that the imms know the effect it's having (is it hitting its target, or missing completely?), another post asks for feedback from Ea! on the suggestions made, several posts attempt to explain why players feel the need for homunculi, and the function they served in a creates bag of strategy. I see players attempting to compromise, as the first step in any compromise is for those involved to state their position, and to try to understand where everyone involved is coming from. I see players frustrated at this change, seemingly from out of the blue, with no explanations offered of why this change was necessary, or any indication that their comments are being taken seriously. The only imm response I've seen on this board is along the lines of you people just want it too easy, which doesn't indicate that any of the suggestions, questions, comments were taken seriously at all. I am much saddened by this poor response from the imms, it would seem that my expectations of the imms here were too high. Tirzah

From: Craven Wednesday, August 29 2001, 09:42PM Bravo Tirzah, what I was going to say and then some. We are TRYING to comprimise. I have spent hours talking with imms and players and POSTING ideas that wouldn't necessarily erase the change, but make creates fun again. I think what you don't understand choc is this game is not the same game you played, and don't even tell me you play anywhere near as much as you used to. We all know that imms, once they become imms tend to lose touch a bit with the game. You can argue with me all you want, but I refuse to believe you honestly play as much or more then you used to. And because of that maybe you don't really have a sense of what its like to play these days, or the sense you have is distorted due to the fact that you are an authority figure, you come from a game YEARS ago which is NOTHING like the game today. I really don't know what to say to you choc, if you ask me, YOUR the one refusing to compromise. Your basicly telling us to shut up and accept what happens in stride, because regardless of our opinions, character's we've spent hours and hours on, or any valid points we may bring up, its going to stay the way it is and thats final. I really don't think thats a very good way to state it and your CERTAINLY not going to win the morts over with that. This is your game choc and you can stomp your feet all day, but in the end we are the ones that make all your precious hard work worth it or not. And if you disagree with that, then write a mud for yourself and see how much enjoyment you get out of playing a mud with one player. This post is in no way reflected at all imms, nor is it my opinion that all imms are out to get us etc. But I think this post was a poor response from the imms and personally I'm offended your letting him talk for you in this way. If this is truely how you feel, then I guess append and say yea, right on choc, your the man! But that would certainly break my heart. And last but not least choc, this mud is supposed to be fun for everyone from the hack-n-slasher to the rp'er to the explorer or whatever. Just because YOU don't like to level to 50 in 50 hours or don't like to kill mobs with homo's for expierence, doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't either. It doesn't hurt the rp'ers if I can kill 3 guards and lose 200 mana and it doesn't affect the other classes either. Its all about fun my friend, and your sense is NOT believe it not the same or even close to everyone elses. And again, for the record, I HAVE explored this mud and I have killed damn near any mob that has ever existed, and their are completely worthless areas, their are areas that are just amazing xpwise, and their are areas in between. The areas that are popular are popular because people try different ones and find hey, these are the best, most rewarding, least taxing, etc. - Craven, Sammael, Carney, all the bitches who are getting severely pissed at this issue because its not even up for discussion.

From: Kae Thursday, August 30 2001, 05:22AM Yes, I confess, I didn't read this board for three days. Sue me. :) Anyway -- I think that these create mage threads prove two points that I want to comment on. First: Players and immortals do care, and despite the sometimes grumpy or even pissy tone of some appends, there is a discussion Points of view are aired and taken up for consideration. I'm fully confident these are issues that will be kept in mind in future mage tweaks. So much for the good stuff, here comes what'll make y'all form a lynch mob and hang me from the nearest tree: My creates LIKE the homunculi change. I never used little brown dudes to tank, so (when the fix to move goes in) to me this means, yay, my porters get more movement! Woohoo! Surely something must have eluded me here, because there are so many of you who are upset, and so many of you claiming that 3c create has serious issues, and I still haven't found myself in agreemen t. I level my creates fast. I don't do the big group runs much. I just... I dunno. Maybe I'm just ridiculously patient, or something. --Darth Kae, More hyper after coffee than before.

From: Nanok Thursday, August 30 2001, 06:30AM It's nice to see that an imm could respond to this subject without scorn for the common player. -Hug Kae- Even though, she pretty much took the imm approach and said "I like the changes". Well, either a bunch of MORTALS are going to form a lynch mob and ATTEMPT to hang you, or the other Imms will simply remove you from the pantheon that they have created.

From: Chocorua Thursday, August 30 2001, 09:59AM if you think my tone was scornful towards the common player you are wrong. The common player isn't spending more time complaining about the change than actually exploring the possibilities of the game. My attitude does come off harsh and really never has been different. I am simply not of the opinion that what was basically an exploit of the system needs to be changed back because a number of our more vocal players have taken it as this weeks crusade. I am not going to defend myself from craven's attacks about how disconnected I am from theactual game. He and everyone can think what they like. I will fully admit that since I left college, got a job and found a few other hobbies that my playing time has decreased. Oddly enough I don't miss spending 2/3 of my week on this game. I like the more objective viewpoint of a less active player. Anyhow I still think that if we spent less time complaining about how things are and more time exploring the other possibilities that we might find that the game hasn't really changed all that much. On a side note I saw a character with some little brown charmies taking out level 50 mobs just yesterday.. I must have been seeing things since we made that impossible... or perhaps its just not as easily exploitable anymore. Chocorua

From: Tirzah Thursday, August 30 2001, 11:34AM I respectfully beg to differ Chocorua, if you think your tone wasn't scornful to the common player, you are wrong. I have a list here of comments from your posts that could be interpreted as scornful, or as putdowns, or comments that I took as personally insulting and a misunderstanding of what I was trying to convey. I don't feel it is appropriate for me to post them on this board, as that won't serve any constructive purpose, but if you'd like to discuss them with me on a personal level, send a tell to me and maybe we can both try to have a non-confrontational discussion about the comments I refer to, and why I view them as scornful. Tirzah

From: Nanna Thursday, August 30 2001, 01:36PM Woo, someone agrees with me -hug KAe- and I'm not even an imm! -Nanna

From: Craven Thursday, August 30 2001, 02:51PM everyone has their opinion, but I guess I ask this. If the few people who have appended to this don't really care one way or the other about the change, why was it put in? All it really did was supposedly make room for some change we'll get god knows when and pissed a ton of people off while a few are going more mv, thats nice. I just don't get it.

From: Muad'Dib Friday, August 31 2001, 02:21AM perhaps all these appends appear because some people are tired of other peoples griping that a charmie was reset to what it was designed for, that is, a porter was made a porter, instead of a tank. on my home plane I was a mighty being, look at me now, a lowly tank? Ive seen you state several times that PK is the ultimate way to test your chars abilities in an innovative way, and even more, that you are very good at PK, perhaps you should consider trying that next time you mobkill? -yes- I do have a create mage, and -yes- I did abuse the little brown men and -yes- I do approve that they have become what they are. next time you `base` a char off something that seems unreal, perhaps you might want to reconsider it, because if it is unreal, it is prone to change. There exists no separation between gods and men one blends softly casual into the other. -- Paul Muad'Dib, Usul of Tabr

From: Ganymede Friday, August 31 2001, 02:27AM One point in response to something Choc wrote...he suggested that the people who aren't happy with the changes are those who wish to take the easy road and not put in a lot of effort. Quite to the contrary, I believe most of the complaints have come from people who put a very large amount of time into their characters and that is the root of their issues. It's unfortunate that there have been a couple of rude posts about it, but on the whole, it seems to me that the posts have been constructive, helpful, and not just requests to undo the changes that have been made--just as you asked. As to the create change, as I've said before I think it's a good change. I never used homunculi much with my create mage, and since they're meant to carry things, the change just means that's what they will be limited to. However, I think the main issue is that their functionality is not currently filled by any other of the charmies at a create's disposal. The only create mob capable of tanking and doing damage, without the mage having to have a lot of con, is a gsummon, and those have a prohibitively high mana cost. I like the suggestions for making elementals a little nicer; in fact I like several of the ideas given, and I hope they are given serious consideration. Ganymede et al.

From: Dim Friday, August 31 2001, 01:44PM Quoted from Choc: "I will fully admit than since I left college, got a job and found a few other hobbies that my playing time has decreased. Oddly enough I don't miss spending 2/3 of my week on this game." You don't miss spending time here, then DON'T spend time here, don't waste our time with issues you know little about. If you are happier elsewhere, doing other things, please continue to do them, because in my opinion, you have Nothing to offer this game anymore. Quoted from Choc: "On a side note I saw a character with some little brown charmies taking out level 50 mobs just yesterday.. I must be seeing things since we made that impossible... o dim kill perhaps its just not as easily exploitable anymore." Again, thank you for you heart-warming opinion... You are not helping anyone by being here... I soloed every damn mob in Klien today, and I was level 29 at the time.... Some level 50 mobs are just pathetic... Instead of making meaningless comments, how about making an attempt at saying something remotely positive, reassuring, optimistic.... But you have pretty much implied that you are incapable of that. Thank you for such an asset here at legend choc. me.

From: Chocorua Friday, August 31 2001, 04:11PM heh always comes down to other people telling me how useless I am. Oddly enough Dim the things i spend my time doing here may or may not affect your game play and there are quite a few things that need to get done around here that have absolutely nothing to do with how your charmie army happens to size up against a particular mob. I am not going to defend myself against accusations that I don't spend enough time here ot know what is going on. If you think that good. Keep thinking that. It will give you soemthing to hate me for I suppose. My stance on game balance and design stays the same. Legend is an evolving game and things will change if a feature is found to be abusable and we can find a way to remove that we will or we may make it more difficult. THis change was really needed in my opinion because a create that could make these charmies spent VERY little mana creating his/her army of very effective tanks. As I said I have seen them used in this manner since the change and it may have cost a bit more mana but the same strategy is still valid. Chocorua

From: Yui Friday, August 31 2001, 09:31PM I always like how these conversations get a nice rude undercurrent by all posters. hmm. Yui

From: Poetry Sunday, September 02 2001, 11:25PM Maybe people are really frustrated with this change because the REAL create charmies are kinda lame. Ok, granted, the homos were supposed to be porters. But they filled a void in create's arsenal. Low mana, decent hp tanks so that the mage can do all the damage. Well since they have been reduced to porters... maybe you guys should look at titans and demons and make them do some SERIOUS damage... like they should. They hit about as hard as Mustapha last I checked.. thats lame! Is it still like that?

From: Thundarr Tuesday, September 04 2001, 10:26PM just a pk input here, inspired vs. charmies is very very effective, i am all for making elementals and titans whip up on mobs, just not on me as i trade calms for incites, and wtf does calm fail more anyway with 100 prestige???

From: Wilhelm Saturday, September 22 2001, 04:18AM Regarding append 19 Can we indeed try to be civil to each other?


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