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Changes? And the lack thereof...|U6

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Posted by Craven on 09/08

Just noticed that yet again we have little or no code updates planned for next week. I guess this is a question for the imms, and I'm sure that 90% of them will be offended, but I'll live. Question is, of course, are there ANY changes planed for the next 3 months, or should I even bother logging on to read the boards and check? If the only changes planned are "bug fixes," and "we changed a quest to require the phrase yes I will help you instead of just yes," then I really would rather save my time and not even log on. This really isn't a slam against the imms or the work they are or aren't doing, just wondering. Have a great day! - Craven |U6

From: Ea! Friday, June 21 2002, 09:45PM I wouldn't expect any ground breaking major changes in the next little while. Most, if not all of the coding staff is extremely busy in real life and hasn't had the time to code that we would like. Our priorities over the last few months have been to address the issues with the mud's stability (which is getting better, thankfully), to fix a few bugs that have been annoying the building staff, and to help us manage and scale hte mud better. We have one or two fairly major changes planned, but if all goes well they won't be visible to players. -Ea! |U6

From: Craven Saturday, June 22 2002, 11:08AM Thanks, thats the answer I expected. Keep up the good work, I guess. Love ya Ea!, just don't care if the builders are happy or not :) I'm just glad NeverWinter is finally out, at least I have a game to play this summer. - Craven |U6

From: Benjamin Sunday, June 23 2002, 01:05AM Yeah, there have been no major additions or new features on this game in over two years. Kind of a long draught, especially considering that there's so much potential this mud still has left for development. If you're going to tell me not to complain because the imms are doing this in their free time, for no pay, etc. etc., don't bother. I know all that. But the same has been the case all throughout Legend's history, and only recently have we had such a long period of time with so little addition to the game. The imms have their personal lives and haven't had much time to add things to Legend, and that's fine, it's their time to do with as they choose, and we all move on eventually. But in that case, why have hardly any new immorts been added to the staff, to infuse fresh ideas, new energy, and most of all, more time into the game? It's not for lack of applications. If imms stop having time to give to the game, it only makes sense to hand it over to a new generation who can devote the time. But nowadays, there IS no new generation. Any community needs growth to remain fresh, and Legend doesn't have growth. Ben's player |U6

From: Chocorua Sunday, June 23 2002, 08:56AM Legend won't ever be "handed" to teh new generation. Unlike the vast majority of the muds out there the core of the imm staff here has always had and will continue to have a very high standard for what will be accepted into the game. There have been fewer imm apps in teh past couple years that before . A lot of that is probably because there has always been a high percentage of people who were not chosen to be Imms. Again that high standards rule comes into play. First and foremost a new imm must be able to get along and work with the existing staff. That is no easy thing to do. The other part ofg the problem is that the changes everyone wants to see and get excited about generally result in a huge amount of work after they are implemented and we get a neverending string of complaints abou tthe things that DO get put in. Motivation is a big factor fo rme atleast. The nuber fo things that I have put into teh game (none of them major i guess) have meet with insults and worse silence. There have been a few pretty big things put in place in teh past 2 years. I have to disagree there. LoP and RecallTag were put in recently. Alaska and Malta went in just over 2 years ago and people still haven't found all their little secrets. The mud machine has moved a number of times and the code base has changes a huge amount since then. I guess it speaks well of the coders that so much of the game engine could be improved without people noticing major change. As Ea! put it stability and bug fixes have been the focus lately. For me this will continue forward for awhile. I think that part of the stagnant feeling that you are feeling is in the players arena as well. All I see people doing is running in larger groups for the mos tefficient exp in the tougher areas. Legend has so much more than that to offer. You are limiting yourself with playing such a narrow minded portion of the game. And as always the more we hear how much we suck ... the more we wonder if it is worth spending the time to give you new toys so you can complain abou tthose too. Chocorua |U6

From: Kae Sunday, June 23 2002, 05:51PM I'm only speaking for me here, but I put in 10-30 hours of work on Legend every week. This is more than we can reasonably ask from anyone with kids and/or a job -- you're right, I have no kids and I don't work. I'm not the fastest code cracker in the house, no argument there. There is nothing I want more than to see my next area implemented so I can move on to the one I was doing when I took over Hell. There is nothing I want more as a player than to see new stuff go in all the time. I can see how not seeing any new major areas for 2 years is frustrating; it frustrates me too. Then I go look at what it is that takes time away from me in building new stuff as opposed to maintaining old stuff. And this is where players can help a bit, perhaps. Every sensibly written bug, typo or idea report that lets me hop directly to a line of code and fix it with little effort saves me a lot of time later. It gives me a feeling of accomplishment. It spurs me on to implement the idea elsewhere even if I had to reject it where it was suggested, or don't have the time to implement it right away. Make sense? Darth Kae |U6

From: Rufus Thursday, June 27 2002, 10:00AM Easy answer to the 'why not many new imms, it's not due to lack of applications?' Easy. The applications I've read over the last 2 and a half years have universally sucked. Hard. Either that or they were submitted by people who a good chunk of the imm staff doesn't want to deal with on a daily basis in an immortal capacity. What's even more sad, is that generally the applicants knew this. As to making builders happy - unhappy builders do not produce new content. Code work to make builders happy ultimately ends in new areas. And I'm reminded of a time when we did change major game systems, added large new features... And I look know... a couple posts on it on the discussion board when we don't change anything, yet threads and threads of complaint when we do. Frankly, beside the fact I work too much to really give legend a thought, player 'input' (if it really can be called that most of the time, there's far more descriptive words for it that are totally inappropriate for this forum) was a big factor in driving me into inactive-hood. Anyway, these are just personal observations from someone who doesn't and won't, for the foreseeable future, be working on code, areas, talking with mortals, or even really using anything other than the 'think' channel to talk to some friends who aren't sitting next to me. Standard disclaimer - my opinion, not the opinion of the imm staff. Most aren't nearly as jaded as I am. |U6

From: Charity Thursday, June 27 2002, 11:33AM I'm jaded too. That said, I do understand the impulse of "what's new? if there's nothing new I don't wanna spend my time". It's already been pointed out that mentioning that doesn't exactly help new stuff to happen though. One thing that never gets old or stale is other people. Those of us founding imms who don't really have time for Legend anymore still log in and talk to our friends, who happen to be other imms. Even Sadist! Legend provides entertainment, sure, but it's no different from a standalone like Baldur's Gate unless your ties to the people you play with are enough to keep you coming back. I'm constantly amazed by the guilds that have gone from UO to EQ to AC more or less intact. I wouldn't deny that Legend might possibly have a have a shelf life too, and maybe you're done here. But at the least, I hope your friends move along to other games with you. If you didn't make any friends of that sort while playing here, especially long time players, that's just sad. |U6

From: Benjamin Friday, June 28 2002, 01:54AM Sure Rufus, you see a lot fewer complaints when you change nothing in the game for long periods of time, and no doubt that makes you happy. In the long run though, it's not a good thing. Legend is rotting. Anyone who's played longer than a few years and spent the bulk of their time morting can see this. It's true from both a gameplay and a social perspective, but this thread concerns gameplay. Seeing new areas, skills, spells, and whatnot implemented has a bigger impact on the players than just giving them more room to move around in and more variations on the "kill" command. It gives them new inspiration. A new area could give someone an idea for a new character. A new skill could form the basis of someone's RP. New experiences to be had are an infusion of energy and life. I'm not saying players can't come up with stuff without new code... it just gets harder the more time that goes by, because of the "it's all been done" syndrome. Sure Charity, people are a good reason to keep coming back, the problem is, lately they're the ONLY reason. And they shouldn't be. And when other people have equally as hard of a time finding stuff to do, you have the same problem all over again. Social interaction can only go so far in making a game worth playing. And yeah, go ahead and suggest that I not play if I feel like I've done it all, but I don't think that's very constructive. To me, if not to you, Legend is worth fighting for. Ben's player |U6

From: Varnel Friday, June 28 2002, 08:24AM imms make me sick, listen to them bragging about how miserable they are as imms, putting out all these complaints to try and make us feel bad for them them... "oh no, people complain when we put in code changes, and even when we dont" blah blah, so what? its never stopped you guys before. how about if your oging to be jaded just retire from immhood, save us all the time of reading your pathetic posts trying to excuse yourselves. |U6

From: Chocorua Friday, June 28 2002, 10:05AM I think that both Charity and Rufus were trying to point out that hard work rewarded with nothing but criticism and complaint is one of the biggest reasons that a number of the people who have in teh past been large contributors to new things, haven't been doing it anymore. If it disgusts you so much to know that we have feelings and are human, think how much it disgusts us to pour our time and energy into something that noone likes. Chocorua |U6

From: Rufus Friday, June 28 2002, 11:14AM Am retired, Varnel. Hence the 'inactive' in the wizlist. Try again. I don't want anyone to feel bad. What I want is for people to think before they type. "Are there any code changes upcoming? It seems as though the code development has become a little stale, and as a player that worries me." Says the same thing as: "I'm not going to play if there aren't any code changes coming up because I'd be wasting my time. Doing anything other than catering code changes to my preferences is a waste of time and I don't care about that." The difference is the latter is pathetic whining, the former is a concern imms might actually listen to. And you realize, these 'imms that make you sick' make the game that gives you the opportunity to say that they make you sick. Please, door, feet... you have a choice. I've said it before, I'll say it again, if you don't agree with the direction the game or you are unhappy with the state of the game, and are unwilling to make non-insulting and non-argumentative and productive suggestions and comments that have some semblance of respect for those that bring you the game, find another mud to play where the imms, game and all fit your style of play. I have the utmost respect for the imms that continue to work on Legend and try to improve it. When I see comments like 'imms make me sick' it just reeks of the degeneration of the playerbase. If I were a player, I'd certainly not want to count people who are so utterly inconsiderate and unkind as my 'peers.' Anyway, again, my opinion, not that of the imm staff. And again, if you really want to change something, do it the intelligent way... don't upset the status quo until you are in the inside. Oh yeah, and try not to write applications that suck. That helps too. -Ruf |U6

From: Craven Friday, June 28 2002, 10:06PM I wasn't trying to anger anyone or come off as "whining," I was just asking a simple question. The truth is, Legend has been a fairly big part of my life for the last 7 years. I've enjoyed it immensely, I've made many friends and just as many enemies. I simply remember a time when change was more...frequent. As for us complaining about changes, I feel we "complain" because we care. I'll be the first to admit that I and others have certainly whined and cried about changes, especially when it seems as though all our "suggestions" and ideas are just being ignored. Its hard to give constructive critisim when so many times I've been told, in other words, "I can make it however I want and regardless of whether I was wrong or not, its the way its staying." There are many imms who aren't like this at all, and sadly, many who are. Whether your jaded, inactive, active, happy, whatever you happen to be, I respect your work on SOME level. Anyway, I'm not a very good poster, and this post isn't really going anywhere. The point, from my perspective, is this.

From: I

From: appreciate what you do. If you don't think I do, I appologize. When I was 5 years old and my parents gave me a gift, if I didn't say thank you everyday, they still knew I appreciated it. And this goes to those of you who think you need to be praised for your hard work everyday. I appreciate the fire department and all it does, but I'm not going to call them everyday and thank them. Either build/code/pr/admin and enjoy it for what your doing and what your accomplishing, or quit. Obviously Rufus and others have grown weary of the conflicts with players, but the way I see it is, if we aren't complaining, we simply don't care, and that is by far a worse fate for any community. - Craven |U6

From: Benjamin Friday, June 28 2002, 11:19PM Craven's second paragraph sums up my feelings better than I managed to do. Ben's player |U6

From: Kyna Saturday, June 29 2002, 08:04AM Picking up from Rufus' post about why not many new imms ... have the imms staff considered inviting people to immort - selecting people they believe most of the imm staff could handle dealing with on a daily basis. Perhaps these invitees could be given assistance with preparing their applications by a sponsoring imm. Of concern is the possibility that perhaps there aren't any players who most of the imm staff could handle - which may indicate either a problem with some of the imm staff or a problem with changes in the playerbase - maybe it's true what I've heard, that many of the more reasonable, creative players are leaving. Kyna's player |U6

From: Rikimaru Sunday, June 30 2002, 02:17PM yadda yadda yadda.....i agree they need to make changes to make the game a little more intresting, no offence guys but about all the changed you've made while i was around was knee-capping every class you could get your hands on -nds on to encourage "group play" why for i don't know my mother always told me making friends was my responibility, this is the reason why i've pretty much left the fun is gone, the ability to come and play it for the game it is is gone...i guess we all must leave sooner or later thats just the way that it goes, i guess how ever long i spent here was fun... and yeah rufus, remember we're all just a bunch of [email protected]#holes and we don't ever appreciate anything you do yadda yadda yadda i tried constructive critisim, but unfortuneatly remember, as i'm always re-tought time and time again, this place is a dictatorship run by the imms, as it should be for a small community, but no-where in history has anyone ever been completely happy with it, and we all gave up on critism because it was obvious you wern't listening, and bitching just eases -es the soul, i'm babbling now =) anyway back to the land of in activity and games where the only way i have to put with people lame code changes is if i want to download the patch for the record |9 GO VARNEL!|u6 -that one guy! |U6

From: Marcel Monday, July 01 2002, 10:01AM Kyna, I do not believe that the reasonable, creative players are leaving. At least not without being replaced by new, reasonable and creative players. As I see it, we older players sometimes need to stop looking for faces that left years ago, because people do move on -- even if it may take some of us decades, not years. Instead of mourning the bygones, let's remember them with fondness and focus on the good times ahead. Every time I've seriously thought there was no longer such a thing as an interesting newbie I've been proved wrong. --Marcie's player. |U6

From: Zemus Tuesday, July 02 2002, 04:11AM I was just talking about this subject on chat with a alt and got flammed up the ass when I said no changes Well now I know I wasnt the only one who felt this way Yes this mud has lost everything that got me here in the first place ohh well |U6

From: Kyna Tuesday, July 02 2002, 08:47AM Thanks for clearing that rumour up for me, Marcel. Guess I shouldn't pay much heed to gossip :) If part of the problem is that there aren't enough imms, why don't the imms (in addition to the normal imm selection process) select, invite and sponsor some of those reasonable, creative types and support them through the imm process. Sort of like a traineeship for imms, at level 50.5 - if a player can work one-on-one with an imm (or a department) to get a proposal into shape, it would demonstrate creativity, ability to do the job, ability to work hard, and ability to get on with at least one (if not more) of the imm staff. Kyna's player |U6

From: Cheyla Tuesday, July 02 2002, 12:22PM You've pretty much described the proposal process as it currently stands... Just with staff approval before the application instead of after. There is an open invitation for anyone level 45 and over to apply to immort. Personally, I couldn't be comfortable extending personal invitations to individuals... Someone who volunteers because it is something they want to do is more likely to be successful and enjoy the position than soneone who applied/immed because they felt pressured by the immortal staff's invitation. There are other reasons I'm not comfortable with it, but that's the main one.' There are people out there with amazing creativity that I'm sure could build incredible areas - but aren't interested in any of the responsibilities of being an immortal (including building the area), or aren't ready to make that kind of committment. By keeping the invitation open to all interested, we get those that are both interested and feel ready for that responsibility. Besides, how would you feel to be ready to propose but not have received a personal invite from the staff? Like the cards were stacked against you, right? Inviting people specifically to propose and assisting them specially with their proposals would increase some of the feelings already existing of imm pets, as well. With the process as we have it today, it's as fair as we can make it to all applicants. The proposal process isn't an easy one, and that certainly is on purpose. By applying, we get to see who is willing to put in the work necessary. All the points you mention about creativity, hard work, and motivation are evident in the proposal process, especially for building. (PR, Admin, and Coding proposals tend to be relatively short in comparison to building, which is probably the most grueling of them all.) Most people applying to imm will talk to immortals in the department they are interested in, too. They'll ask about the application, duties, expectations, and how things are done, which covers your personal interaction point - but leaves it up to the applicant to take the initiative. I agree with Marcel that there are still plenty of creative minds out there and people able to handle being an immortal, but it is up to those people to decide whether it is something they want to undertake. |U6

From: Craven Tuesday, July 02 2002, 09:07PM Its more who you know and who likes you then how creative you are. But thats just my opinion. |U6

From: Benjamin Wednesday, July 03 2002, 12:38AM Craven has a point. It would be nice to think that the reason why so few applicants are accepted (to my recollection, only one has been accepted out of more than fifteen applicants over the past two years) is because the standards are high and only the truly worthy can make it. But I think Rufus's first append hits closer to the mark: the applicants are either disliked by too many current immorts, or just not known by enough of them. This works out fine for the imms, since they don't ever have to work with someone they are at odds with. But it also means there's not enough new blood going in, and I already posted how I feel about that. If people like Rufus don't have any desire to do the work themselves, but they also don't want to accept anyone who does have the desire... where does that leave us? Ben's player |U6

From: Chocorua Wednesday, July 03 2002, 08:00AM If you don't think we as an immortal staff don't disagree or have any problems with each other you are REALLY mistaken. Imming is not a popularity contest but you are right to a degree people DO have to be liked to a point. They also have to be known well enough to know if they are going to fit into the immortal staff and survive. Even with these requirements a good 2/3 of all applicants dissappear within the first few months. I can't go much more into detail because we tend to keep our heated discussions as private as possible but I will say that there is probably as much "being at odds" on the imm staff as there is between mortals. If a full third of the immortals don't think thei can/want to work with an applicant then it's probably best for the mud that they don't try. You use teh excuse for these rants that the mud is stagnant. I will agree that we haven't seen the new areas that we once have. The quality and depth of the areas you have seen in the past 3 years is amazing compared to what was created when we first came up. Over teh past 18 months or so the older areas have been getting revisited and revised to make them more up to date and interesting. Legend may no tbe changing at teh rate that it used to but ther eis still work going on and if you look you will find new things each week (with a few exceptions here and there). The problem I see most is that players want faster reward for less work. This has been given in the past with gaming engine enhancements and the result is a faster game and the players wanting even faster and this time easier rewards for less work. That can't keep happening. If you feel you have done everyhting legend offers then you are either one of about 3 players who have explored all char classes and situations (3 might be high lets just say Sandra) or you have narrowed your options to only the easiest and most popular options. Chocorua |U6

From: LadyAce Wednesday, July 03 2002, 06:04PM If I can keep my link long enough to write what I mean, and not cut myself off in the middle.... Imms who are inactive, don't get to vote. We actually go through the list of active imms and make sure they're truly the active ones, and then we go from there. I think from some previous mortal comments (Ben's maybe) that might not've been clear. I absolutely agree that we're in a bit of a lull as far as large changes go. I've been here long enough to know that large changes and rapid change tends to be sporadic, and that comes from several factors. -- Time. If you look at help updates, you might notice some amount of pattern to it all. In the last three years, the number of large changes which went in during the spring and summer has been relatively small, while the general trend is for large changes in the fall and winter. Spring and summer seem to be a hectic time for us, and we end up making smaller and more incremental changes. I can't say for 100% sure why this is, but my instinct is that it has to do with the pace of our RL work and lives. - Encouragement & motivation. This also comes and goes, and that's completely natural. You may run into the same sorts of patterns as players -- sometimes you're into playing for hours and hours, and other times you kinda feel like doing something else. Your enjoyment of the game also plays into our motivation, and we all have an encouraging or discouraging effect on each other, too. There's nothing like someone putting in a bunch of cool area fixes or putting together a new event to get me thinking 'Hey, I should do something!'. There's nothing like a bunch of player RP to get all our creative juices flowing. Sometimes, sure, complaints can galvanize us into action. But your excitement is what feeds ours, and conversely. We are all in this together. I've seen some comments about the immorting process, so I want to share a few thoughts on that too. We are not short of warm bodies over here in immland. The kinds of candidates we want are energetic, creative types with time to give to the project, and who have the maturity and patience to work with a team. I hope that people will take the time to apply if they want to join us, and not be discouraged by the uncertainty of an application/proposal process. -LadyAce |U6

From: Benjamin Saturday, July 06 2002, 12:36AM Hi, just a couple of follow-up comments: LadyAce, you mentioned a pattern of larger changes happening only at certain times of the year. While I'm sure that's true to an extent, what we're talking about here is a lull not of six months, but of more than two years. Also, it's true that imms and morts rely on each other for energy and motivation. But when each group puts the responsibility on the other one to motivate them, you have a chicken and egg situation. In that case, who should take it upon themselves to start things going? Ultimately it's the imms who own and run the game, and (in the case of most imms at least) want people to play it. If some imms' busy personal lives don't allow them to devote the time they would like to, that's why they should have backup that can tow the line, and new members who can add their energy and ideas to the mix. Some games have just the right mix of elements where players can find new things to do and motivate themselves almost indefinitely. But Legend's not there yet. Ben's player |U6

From: Fairfax Saturday, July 06 2002, 09:50AM Oh, I don't seem to have trouble finding new things to do and to motivate myself almost indefinetely. After 5 years on this MUD I'm frankly quite amazed at how little I actually know about the things here - the areas, code, different abilities of different classes, hometowns, stat combos, mob strategies etc. I admit there are times when RL interferes, I can't find the time to play, and at one time when I had a house, logging on was a chore because it was like I was playing to earn money for the code, which I hated.. but since I lost my house I've been enjoying myself immensely. So many new things to discover, new characters to try, new friends to make and new mean people to be mean to. I agree that maybe it would be hard to cater for everyone's taste as to what is perpetually entertaining and stimulating, since the wants and demands of each individual are staggeringly different at times, but what's available on Legend works for me. I would LOVE to see new areas, but I remember thinking that, and when Greece went in I hardly visited. Even until now. Until new areas which I like and enjoy are installed, I have no problem finding stuff on this MUD to entertain me. Call me sad, but my next target is 200 mil, and seeing which sort of mobs a surgeon can solo - I haven't had such fun in a long time! =) Ian, Fairfax's player. |U6

From: Chocorua Saturday, July 06 2002, 12:05PM One comment, about who needs to start the motivation. I guess that responsibility is in the hands of the person who most feels the need to improve their time spent here. I personally work on htings when i have the time and energy. If as a player or even an imm you feel legend is lacking in fun/motivation perhaps instead of complaining that noone ever does anything for you or gives you anyhting, that energy might be better spent trying to motivate others. Simply saying that you are sick of teh lull in new toys isn't going to motivate anyone. My lack of enthusiasm isn't going to motivate anyone either but I just like to see people take responsibility for their own good time and not put that burden on the other side of the fence. This goes both ways imms to morts and morts to imms. Chocorua |U6

From: Ibrahim Wednesday, July 10 2002, 11:49AM chat tip hannah oh right.

From: blush

From: I don't get why you're all complaining - 4 or more areas went in almost at once four years ago, which has resulted in every active builder working on something new now. Would you rather the immortals had let in the areas with half a year inbetween, just to make you all feel the changes? I think some people need to realise the amount of work that goes into building an area, and, hopefully, builders take time to lead real lives aswell:) I suppose this came off as rambling, but jolly good show. Ibrahim |U6

From: LadyAce Wednesday, July 10 2002, 09:19PM I guess we may be working with different definitions of lull -- new areas are not the only which define the pace of changes. The standard for areas has gone up dramatically. They are bigger and better and more work these days. It takes longer to build and maintain them, but they're also deeper and more interesting places. If you take an area which was built ages ago and which hasn't seen a lot of updating since then, Casablanca is a good example. It fit in a whole lot more in the old days than it does now (an update is in progress on it, but I also know Breton is really busy atm). It's the only one left of what I'd call the oldstyle area. Those oldstyle areas are not the kind we want to build anymore. We want to build areas with tons of features and things to do, and update the areas which don't have quite as much in them to do. If you haven't noticed the great things happening to old areas like Tara and Aztecs, or how areas like Alaska and Dreamtime and Melbourne are keeping pace with regular additions of new features, or the new stuff that's starting to go in French/Indian War, then you should check them out. At the same time, you guys are changing too, particularly those who have been here a while, but also the new folks coming in. Pure cannon fodder, by and large, is pretty boring. It seems like you want challenges, interesting stuff, sensible quests with lots of helps -- old, unsophisticated things don't seem likely to be the sort to satisfy your interest in new challenges. If that were the case, then double-installing every area would satisfy you :). Everyone has higher expectations these days. Regular computer games are more complex, and your understanding of technology is more complex, and things that used to be mystical and strange are now very commonplace. These incremental changes are much harder to document in the 'help updates' file, but they're no less important. If it would be helpful, I'll see if I can find some ways to make these changes more obvious by summarizing some of the LT postings into that helpfile. I know that it's not easy to keep track of the context and keep track of what's gone in when. Incremental changes have a way of feeling like they've always been there -- which is a credit to the builder for putting things in with such smoothness and style, but it's not quite as easy to give them credit FOR. Yours, LadyAce |U6

From: Benjamin Thursday, July 11 2002, 01:52AM Areas aren't really the meat of what I was talking about, to be honest. Sure it's a little discouraging that it's been so long since the last two areas went in, but unless some builders want to do something about the dramatic under-representation of Asian culture on the mud, I think there's already more than enough building going on. No, what I'm driving at is what scares imms the most: new features, skills, and (to a lesser degree) spells. I know that these things require a massive amount of work to get things balanced once they are implemented, but really, the mud isn't all that balanced now. And since several imms have tried to tell me that real balance is a pipe dream anyway, why not go for broke and actually add some of the stuff that's been planned for so long? Some new fight skills would sure spice things up for warriors, and as I understand it, several such skills are already coded. Or how about those new poisons I heard about a few months ago? What about actually making it possible to steal things again? What if we could double-wield firearms by going weaponless? Those are just a few ideas and I'm sure better minds than mine could come up with some truly awesome stuff. I think things like that are what would benefit Legend more than anything else right now. Ben's player |U6

From: Craven Thursday, July 11 2002, 04:39PM I agree with ben there, I was talking more about code then areas. To be honest, I don't get all that exicted about new areas. When you break it down, they are all basically the same. A few quests, usually involving some type of fed ex element to them and a few mobs that are worth your time to kill. I was talking more about code changes, things that affect everyone. And a note to ladyace...I completely disagree with what you said about people wanting more challenges. The sheer number of pd and sl groups should show you the fault in that logic. - Craven |U6

From: LadyAce Thursday, July 11 2002, 06:28PM Okie, 'help updates' is a bit more up to date. A few things stand out -- we did make a lot of changes in February, and memory leaks/crashing bugs were pretty much the order of the day in April/May. You might not be still excited about what went in in February, but weather was a major step for us. Besides every builder putting in a bunch of work, weather is on the list of work that needs to happen before skilltrees (save the tomatoes, I know it's been a very long wait). So whether you love the depth added by weather or not, ticking that item off the list has been a big step forward. At any rate, I hope the new items in help updates shed a bit more light on what's being done. -LA |U6

From: one

From: imm has been working =P This ain't the same Legend as when I first came here, and this chara |U6 one

From: imm has been working =P This ain't the same Legend as when I first came here, and this chara |U6 one

From: imm has been working =P This ain't the same Legend as when I first came here, and this chara |U6

From: Gondar Wednesday, July 24 2002, 01:38PM I didn't bother going down the entire list of appends to this thread, because the first few told it all pretty much. The players feel the imms don't give a nut any more. The imms feel the players dont give a nut any more I think it started when the imms first took something from the players in the name of balance, rather than giving something to the rest. Maybe I'm wrong, but thats how it looks to me. . . And each round of changes seem to lower the effectiveness of characters rather than raising/balancing. People bitch, the imms get miffed, and here we are. . . My only solution is more actual discussion between players and immorts and less complaining by everyone. . . things ain't what they used to be Players, make a new alt and go places and do things you normally don't do, if you DT, so be it, it's not your "main" character with all the nifty strings and old eq. Immorts, consider adding to characters for balance instead of downgrades. I hear there's an expansion to an existing area going in soon. . . so we know at least

From: one

From: imm has been working =P my $0.02 |U6

From: Benjamin Sunday, September 08 2002, 04:11AM Time for an update. What has been changed since this thread started? There was an expansion to Paris which is quite excellent. Kudos for that. How about any code changes? Well, we got mood-ified socials which don't really seem to add to the RP experience more than they disorient. Not an opinion shared by all I'm sure, but in any case, it's no more than a cosmetic change. I appreciate the effort that went into it and it isn't a bad idea. But it's not what we need most. Exploration and combat are at the heart of what drives most people to play a mud. We have the exploration part covered with recent expansions. Combat still leaves a lot to be desired, and we don't even need skilltrees or anything remotely that complex to make it a much more balanced and rewarding experience for everybody. Some new fight skills, some of which are already coded for pete's sake, would help a lot. Some new abilities to make bards and thieves more viable in their trades would be nice too. Are we ever going to see anything like this again? |U6

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