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Of Wimps and Whatnot|U6

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Posted by Kae on 11/09

Over the last few years, Legend has seen a trend of what I will non-diplomatically call wimping out. I am by no means opposed to things being changed to make playing easier -- but it seems to me that in some cases, this is being taken too far. The Shadowlands were wimped down years ago because the area was 'too difficult' (makes me wonder what draws people to Paris sewers now, but what the hey). DTs don't eat strings anymore. There is very little risk involved with exploring without care or even enough concern to type 'exits'. Sure, you need to run back and get your corpse. The xp loss from dying, particularly in pkill, has become a joke -- 30 minutes tops, and you're back where you were. Money acquiring has become so easy that the addition of Player Housing to make cash go 'round and not sit in your pocket never happened. The upcoming change to the hippo is just the drop that makes me scream, really. I mean, yes, sure, it sucks to lose a strung canoe -- but how many canoes are strung overall, and how much trouble would it be to either drop that canoe for 30 seconds or not fight this particular mob? These major changes are to an extent based on player demand. The players obviously don't get a say in every decision the staff makes, but the general interest of the players are always in mind. I just can't bring myself to believe that the players _really_ want everything to be as easy as possible. There has got to be a miscommunication somewhere. Obviously, areas frequented a lot by low- and newbies should not be painstakingly difficult to navigate and survive. The game should not focus on making players' lives hell, either. But a bit of challenge, some real risk rather than a temporary inconvenience, a tad of unpredictability -- surely this is something desirable? Whatcha all think? Disclaimer: Above opinions mine alone, not representative of the immortal staff, yada yada yada. |U6

From: Fortebraccio Tuesday, October 29 2002, 02:32PM Are you preparing us for Inferno Kae? :P I don't know what to say in truth..in principle i agree with you but there is to consider also that it has become a lot more difficult to level characters here (if you not running PD every day) so not all the changes have been so easy on players...maybe they kind of even out? I also would like more challenges on some areas (SL PD) but i would also like to have some fairness in the levelling process especially if you try to level solo. |U6

From: Aegir Tuesday, October 29 2002, 06:45PM mob kill here is simplistically simple to a point where it might as well be bot'd (no i don't do this). seriously, until the code is improved to the point where creatures take "aggro" into consideration there is no points -- killing here is a means to an end, getting to 50 to pk against real people, i.e. get a challenge. let me explain aggro for those that never played EQ or DAOC: the npc keeps track of how much damage everyone hitting it is doing, and keeps track of how much healing everyone is doing, and figures out which is the greatest threat and targets them specifically. sorry Kae that you don't like things being made easier, i for one don't really care about hippos or any other mob change, really. its rare i do SL or PD or because i dislike all leveling. that's just me. good thing for you, you are making an area and can make it anyway you want =P i prefer the old xp system. i prefer never having DTs. i prefer having xp loss as is, or maybe even halved. thats because that caters to how i play -- do i expect these to happen? nope. could i make my own mud? yep, if i had more time. am i going to? nope. running a mud is a serious time commitment, well running a good one anyway. so i would like to say thanks to kaige and all the other imms who put in the time, because overall this is a good mud. not sure i really had an overall point here, just that there's lots of ways to look at things -- making things like leveling and getting equipment/money easier in your eyes means that its easier to create more level 50 pk chars to fight with, which means more fun for me, and those that have similar views towards this game... |U6

From: Purge Tuesday, October 29 2002, 07:38PM |U6

From: Sallah Tuesday, October 29 2002, 09:57PM I don't think challenge is something players on Legend are especially keen to nowadays. Otherwise, they wouldn't piss and moan when changes are made (even when those changes are clearly for the better in the long run), and immorts might actually feel less hesitant to make those changes. My play time here has dropped to practically nothing because I don't feel like there is enough challenge and freshness. Speaking for myself, I agree that things have been made too easy, and that any alteration to Legend which makes something tougher on players is met with far too much griping and hostility. Maybe if people didn't rely so much on their strings to define who they are? Sallah's player |U6

From: LadyAce Tuesday, October 29 2002, 10:13PM Warning: long message follows :) I personally don't see a large trend towards making things easier. I do see a risk-averse player base, however -- a reluctance to take risks that might lead to death, a shunning of leaders who take less safe paths, a desire to acquire scads of XP, etc. There are tough places, tough mobs -- and people, more and more, tend to go in with a whole mob of people, tend to take the 'known best path' -- etc. Difficulty and challenge are an interesting topic, and deserving of a separate post, etc. As for cash availability ... it's true that money-making methods went into the game to help with housing, but by and large, I'm pretty happy with the rate at which people can make cash. But then, I want them to be able to design and put together fairly large houses. People have always accumulated big sums of money -- now they have something more to spend it on. Coupons used to go for 300k and silly items for inflated sums...now they all go for less, because the money is worth more. I think the "challenge" part of the game is distinct from the "string saving question, and I'd rather see them addressed separately. The below is my argument for string saving, and I hope that at least my opinion (that the two things are separate) will make sense given my argument -- whether you agree or not. A player suggested at a Q & A that strings should be saved when items scrap, or when they hit DTs and such, others agreed, including me. In defense of the idea -- a few points. It was enacted in a different atmosphere, where there was a great deal of coupon hoarding, and risk aversion due to not wanting to lose precious items. I felt that encouraging people to use those coupons and to explore the mud was an important thing. In addition, I have a particular theory about the role that strings play in the game. Equipment, on one hand, is really IC. You need it to participate in the gamer part of the game -- i.e. to be part of the kill/gain xp/advance cycle. You gain it as part of that cycle, and you can lose it as part of that cycle (scrappage, DTing, etc.). To me, that seems very sensible. Strung items are much more complex than equipment. - they're OOC -- i.e. they don't make sense in the game context. You win them from perhaps some IC actions, but primarily for OOC actions. To redeem them, you have to talk to an immortal. While it's quite possible to come up with a complex explanation of how an item came to be transmogrified into another item, it's ultimately an RP workaround, an explanation of an oddity of the world. - they encourage roleplay and character individuality. Despite the rather anachronistic nature of perhaps a quarter of the prize strings, by and large people's strings are done on some sort of theme or idea, some kind of look -- and they're not the silliness of 500 people, including babies, nuns, and dogcatchers, walking around wearing corsets, feathered hats, and big metal shields. As cute as that might be. (this is Reason 2, if you are keeping score at home :]). A few people may be wearing glowsticks or popsicles or lavalamps that make them look silly, but at least we're not all in the same exact gear! - they're a reward for, essentially, doing what the imms want you to do. Games are fun, sure, but they're also a great way for us to build community, encourage you to explore the mud, and to help you let off steam or take a break. We appreciate your help in improving the mud with typo/idea/bug reports, or using compression, or going along with whatever wacky activity we might come up with. (reason 3!) I understand that people are concerned about the proliferation of stringish prizes, and perhaps there are some ways that that might be corrected. Perhaps prize machine strings should be eaten by DTs and such, if it's possible to make that change. But I'm not convinced that proliferation of strings, in and of itself, is a good reason to remove the code. I'm biased by my experience, though -- from being a player who felt on the wrong side of the tracks a fair bit of the time. And so, part of this comes from the fact that in "the old days", I couldn't seem to get a single string no matter what I did -- it in fact took me years before I even had one. (It was after I became an immortal, and the string was given to me by a clanmate.) You can tell me that people valued them more "in the old days", and perhaps they did -- but that's not how it seemed to me. To me, strings in those days seemed more like the province of the "haves" -- the lucky, the speedy, the popular, the in-crowd. And so the rarity of coupons didn't make me any more attached to my characters, or any more willing to do positive things for the community. At the time, it kinda made me irritated, and it made me feel like an outsider -- and no, it's not like I still cry in my pillow over it, but it left a bad taste in my mouth. If giving out coupons is a good way to encourage people to do good stuff, and if having strung gear is in and of itself a good thing for the mud, rareness of strings and coupons is a bad thing. Excessive availability drives the value downward, and must be watched for. But too low of availability is worse, because we don't just weaken the benefits provided by the coupons, we undo those benefits and create rifts. And sure, there've always been people who seemed to end up with them like they were growing on trees, and there've always been people who couldn't get one to save their life, but I hope that the middle segment of people is growing. If it's growing because the "haves" don't mind selling off or giving away what they have to the "have nots" -- then that's ok by me. I hope we have a broader range of opportunities, too. I honestly don't begrudge the winners of games their winnings -- but I also don't mind them having enough to share, and enough that they don't feel like they need to stay in their houses or the inns 24/7 just to hold on to their loot. All that said -- I suggested above that perhaps prize strings might be reasonable to have as an item destroyed by various types of misfortune. This is in one sense a compromise with those who aren't fond of string-saving, because I agree that there's an awful lot of proliferation going on, my disagreement is with the notion of removing the code. Lest you think this suggestion is inconsistent with what I've said above....a quick (I hope) outline of my thinking. Reason 1 isn't diminished -- in fact it's enhanced, since the items may be harder to fit into your RP than something you devise yourself. And besides, Reason 1 is not my favorite reason.... Prize strings are a lesser prize, and they're more highly available, which diminishes the value of reason 3. And as for Reason 2....they're not much use for that, since they're not devised by the player, they're devised by various random suggestions, and while you might like one you've gotten, the attachment formed from thinking up something yourself is much stronger. So that's how I get to my final opinion -- that the hippo change makes sense because it makes the world more consistent -- with strings saving in so many other contexts, it's reasonable to expect them to save in that one. If we're going to talk about string saving as if it were a bad thing, let's at least talk about reversing it in a broad or consistent way. I don't know if this convinces anyone to make the two things separate discussions, but there you have it, in stunning length and 4-part color. No dancing girls, just... love to all, LadyAce |U6

From: Sandra Wednesday, October 30 2002, 01:03AM I'm just going to address the hippo change. The change to these mobs was done so at my request. While the acts for these mobs have been in since the area itself went in, they were, in fact, broken and had been for years. In general, the building department does not make acts for mobs or non-dt rooms to scrap equipment. When Cheyla came to me about the problem with the hippos, we agreed that it was best to modify the acts to save strings. In the years I've been an immortal, purposefully scrapping items through acts has always been something we didn't do. When the original acts went in, one could always carry more than one boat, and strings were much less common(if even existant then). -Sandra |U6

From: Akai_Hayate Wednesday, October 30 2002, 01:22AM I know ya'll get all depressed if I don't post so I think I better! I pretty much agree with Aegir. Post over :P Oh except, I actually do have a mob kill bot, it's so annoying to set up that I think i've deleted it, but the one time I used it I had gained like 5 levels when I came back and was in no danger...wait are mobkill bots bots illegal? 'cause uh, I don't and never did have one! Uh...ummm Anyways tho, 750k xp(is that what pkill death is?) isn't 30 minutes for me it's like 100 years, and mobkill is so boring I tend to multi myself out of uh, boredom? Insanity? Something? Some of my people can xp kinda well but can't pkill worth crap so well...yeah. And uh, I lost my train of thought but basically mobkill is so tedious I wanna kill myself, thats why i've been hovering at like 2 million xp for over a year :P And like....750k isn't alot? I never saw the old xp system, And now I think I am glad I didn't... |U6

From: Ibrahim Wednesday, October 30 2002, 02:27AM If it was up to me, I'd keep the hippo act. As Kae started by saying, certain precautions can be made. Of course, if DT's should indeed save strings (and since they do), so should scrapping acts. If one looks at changes over the last couple of years, there's been saving of strings in DT's, changes to safe and one person rooms...All because of what I call player whining. DT's are avoidable if you take a little care, so I don't think the old days were bad. If you don't look out, you deserve to be punished :)

From: hrmf

From: Not sure I had much of a point, other that I in general agree with Kae. Ibrahim. |U6

From: Kae Wednesday, October 30 2002, 02:51AM Am I preparing you for Inferno? Weeeell. Sorta. Sorta not. Let's say that as a builder I'm worried that I won't be allowed to turn what is supposed to be the meanest (if not necessarily toughest, cos that will always depend on individual taste) area on Legend into just that. There's no immediate danger, but if the trend that I see continues, who knows? I'm not on a quest to make Legend a pain for everyone, or force players to do the same tedious things over and over. I do feel that we need a level of stupidity = punishment and a level of pure risk, particulary in areas not frequented by low/newbies and where it seems the logical thing to do -- as an example, there is a whale in the game which will shove you out of your boat, for which you run the risk of drowning. Look at the size of that tail! It's a logical act to include. Let's not blow things out of proportions entirely -- I don't want to make every mob I get my hands on a nightmare for players. Nor do I really think that if the current trend continues, that we'll end up with so many identical mobs with different descriptions. But I do think it's great that we can have this discussion in the first place, because it lets at least me get a hold on whether it's me that's off whack with Legend's policies, or the policies aren't quite as clear as we'd like to think -- player demand + design intents + code availability - player griping = ... what exactly? |U6

From: LadyAce Wednesday, October 30 2002, 02:59AM Sandra's the one with the lowdown on policies and whatnot -- but mean mobs are and have always been par for the course. The smarter and tougher and more rewarding we can make them, the less they're like cannon fodder. But string eating is a different thing entirely, since essentially nothing else eats them it's a bit off to have one (essentially unavoidable and largely obscure) chance of it happening. I don't think I see the string-eating as part of a trend toward making mobs less of a trick to fight. -LA |U6

From: Kae Wednesday, October 30 2002, 03:04AM Next point made. Right. One by one. Aegir, do I understand you right that you feel that basically, most of Legend's mobs are too darned stupid in combat? Does that mean that basically, you'd like to see smarter mobs and more tricky situations, or was it more of a general statement? |U6

From: Ibrahim Wednesday, October 30 2002, 03:34AM What makes the game fun is challenges. And I agree that stupidity should have consequences (if that wasn't clear from my previous append). Regarding the hippos: A change to make the strings save but keeping the act of scrapping boats, would be the solution I would prefer. Even though that solution requires people to ask others for aid, if and when they get stranded in the area. God forbid having contact with strangers, you might get to know someone new..(But this is an entirely different matter, than this thread is about). Personally I like mobs to be a challenge. If I'm sure I'll always win, there's no challenge. Acts that make mobs differ from the norm, makes me remember them and take care recordingly. There are ways to take precautions to everything, if you cannot alone, perhaps someone else could help you.

From: done with old man ramble for the time being

From: Ibrahim |U6

From: Percy Wednesday, October 30 2002, 05:00AM Well, regarding this, I do agree that things have generally been more wimpier now, than before. Personally I've tried my utmost best not to hit level 50, and occasionally run suicidally at mobs, with low hps, just for pointless cheap thrills. It's like wherever I crash into, there's really nothing to lose, but at the same time, nothing to gain. I mean, hitting level 50 and getting whoises or a pretitle is like getting a status symbol, a certain aim you want to be able to achieve at some point, just like you want to kill the major big bad at the end of a graphic game or something. When you can practically be completely safe wherever you go, it loses its thrill, and there's really no point, kick mouse, kick pirate, same deal, and I'm sure the point isn't to have everything the same but with different names. I'd definitely like more danger or surprises around in areas, and I think there's actually more to gain out of it. When I had my first character, and I sucked, died to agg mobs I couldn't kill, accidentally walked into some large kill zone or a dt, I got to know a lot of people who helped me replace my things or get my corpse or to safe ground; it brings people together, to talk to each other and hang out at the same time, and it was fun, to have something I couldn't do, cos then I would aim to come back and try again and again with different methods to test my skills and what I know about the game. Now you can do mostly everything on your own, there's no need to ask any stranger for help, and people become antisocial. Mobs shouldn't be around just for a complete pointless routine thing, and if things were unpredictable and stuff, it'll prolly encourage level 50s and such, to keep walking around to be surprised for something different, or to test out different methods, instead of sitting at inns cos things are mostly all been there, done that. |U6

From: Aegir Wednesday, October 30 2002, 08:35AM in answer to Kae: yes, i would like to see smarter mobs. giving a mob more hp, making it hit harder and have a random chance to slay is NOT making it harder or more challenging. for one, instant slay is cheap, and i don't fight mobs that do it. second, more hp and hits harder just means you need "X" more surgeons/druids in the next rooms. it is very hard to have a good AI in a room based game, however given this constraint, it should be possible for mobs to break combat and go after the healers, recall, things like that. and yes, some of Sandra's new LOPs are exactly what i am talking about. for the record, and i don't know how long you have played here Kae, i myself started back when the mud was on the dwarf servers at utexas.edu, and for people that thing this game is getting easier, well you could be leveled to 50 in a day back then, you could start soloing captains and jim southland at level 15 and basically fly up to 50, you could kill the lion, rhino, sayyid, the innkeep in san fran, all for huge no risk xp, just casting a low mind stun over and over. me, well i prefer it like that -- the sooner i can get a char to 50 the sooner i can enjoy pk'ing. thats why

From: I

From: play here. to everyone else who is here, ask yourself why do

From: YOU

From: play here. this game has a lot to offer, i think that it can meet everyone's needs. oh yah, on the topic of strings being eaten -- its nice that they don't anymore i guess, what LA said is true they are less valuable than ever before, but thats fine with me who wants to money-run anyway? the hippos ain't exactly a huge xp source. they have always crushed boats, except for an odd bug elm canoes were resistant to the act, however i have found that is fixed lol. strung boats with 12+ colors are spammy anyway, squish 'em! |U6

From: Ibrahim Wednesday, October 30 2002, 09:29AM In response to Aegir: I don't think it would hurt to have areas that it wouldn't be wise to run to if all you want to do is get to level 50 fast. Some areas with challenged for those who get their kicks that way, would not hurt the rest of the mud. |U6

From: Chocorua Wednesday, October 30 2002, 10:03AM 1) there is hardly any accountability for you actions on legend 2) strings aren't as valuable (soemtimes) as they were but if you spend enough time watching auction you will find them going for a LOT of gold. ther eis plenty of gold in the game and housing isn't a big enough drain on the economy to counter that. I don't believe we should make housing more expensive but i think any points about the value of coupons being made is worthless babble. Forget it, a string being bought by one player from another doesn't remove money from the game. no balance is lost or achieved. 3) the hippos probaby shouldn't have eaten strings ever. the fact that DT's don't eat them anymore shouldn't be taken into account. A dt and a mobw ith an act to destroy your boat aren't replated. 4) today's mudders are a different level of players, they don't understand what used to be and shouldn't be held against that as a comparrison. (that being said, You all have it way to damn easy now.. back in my day..... snow.. deep uphill .. bleah bleah .. if you don't understand this then well don't try) 5) Challenge isn't simply how much you lose to get... challenge is when you can't calculate how much force you need to be perfectly safe. Losing strings isn't part of a challenge it is a penalty for making a decision. Don't confuse the two. 6) obtaining coupons used to BE a challenge. Not anymore. I don't have a definite opinion on if that is bad or good. though when strings could leave teh game in some way then i was much happier with them being easier to get. With the strings not having a route out of the game other than a few circumstances then the fact that there are so many strings out there makes me want ot find an avenue for them to leave. 7) if you don't get strings or don't ever seem to be one of the few (snort) who can get them then either you don't play enough or you don't pay very much attention to what is going on. my point ... most everyone with an opinion in this is driving in a different direction. mixing up relationships of problems and generally just wanting their own way without listening to the other side. bah i typed way more than i intended Chocorua |U6

From: Cheyla Wednesday, October 30 2002, 11:50AM I'm going to respond to just the string aspect of this... My appologies if it gets long. I've never agreed with DTs saving strings or the automatic storage from equipment. Personally, I'd love to see DTs go back to eating everything, even strings, regardless of whether it came from a coupon or the prize machine, and would even be happier than I am now if there was just a chance you'd lose some of them. I'd rather see strings go to storage for things you can't prevent - boats sinking, non-repairable items scrapping, guns exploding, etc. The rest of the time, you have control over the loss of it - repair or preserve the item, watch your exits. Strings saving over DTs and all hasn't really decreased the liklihood of hoarding or driven the prices down very much. Now, instead of using that coupon to replace an item you lost in a DT, you hang onto it... And if you have a full set of strung equipment already, you'll hold onto it until you need the cash for your house, likely. |U6 And they'll still go for a lot of money - I've seen a non-color go for 300k recently, multi's for 750k... It all depends on who has the money and how badly they want the coupon. |U6 I haven't found it hard to get strings. I only have one character with a nearly full set, but I certainly could with other alts if I played them more frequently or went for coupons with them instead. Has there been luck to my ability to get coupons? A little, but most of it has been through hard work and playing games that don't require much luck - casinos, scavenger hunts, games where everyone can win something. And the string saving code hasn't made ME any more likely to use the coupons sitting in my bag. |U6 Just my thoughts... Cheyla |U6

From: Aegir Wednesday, October 30 2002, 12:22PM to answer Ibrahim: agreed. more areas is always a good thing. they seem to be super slow in coming past couple years but that's not the point. i like to get to 50 fast to enjoy one aspect of gameplay here, you it seems enjoy a different aspect, and hopefully find it here too. P.S. let me know after you've killed enough sidhe and pirates with zero chance of dying (if you get the right groups), and perhaps we can find other challenges. |U6

From: Fraegis Wednesday, October 30 2002, 08:29PM On an ideal mud, there should be areas which was suited for any taste. If people find an area too hard, they could simply choose other areas to explore/kill, instead of talking about this or that area being too hard. Some like pkill and just needs xp to make up for the losses of death, some like areas that will challenge you and make you run great risks of loosing levels/items/strings. And most prefer something in between. But if all areas were represented, people can choose for themselves where to go. In short : Make hell the meanest area around, if people are warned in advance, it is up to them whether or not they want to explore it. Fraegis |U6

From: Sallah Wednesday, October 30 2002, 10:59PM On the ease of acquiring money: How about making teachers of high-rated skills, such as sniper or expert weapons training, charge a lot of money for learning from them? After all, these are highly valuable skills, and it's unrealistic that the teachers would just give away their knowledge for free. A charge or 10 or even 50K for skills like these sounds fair, and by the time you're ready to learn them that kind of money should be challenging but not impossible to earn. Sallah's player |U6

From: Sallah Wednesday, October 30 2002, 11:00PM On the saving of strings: I think people in general place too much damned value in these things. You have a unique piece of equipment. So what? A character is its personality and behavior, not its clothes and especially not its boat. Either be really careful when exploring (which you should do anyway on general principle), or be prepared to lose them from time to time and have to get new ones. LadyAce mentioned that strings are largely OOC and I really wish this were not the case. If the imms want to reward us for OOC things like bug reports, great. But I think more of the rewards should come for IC accomplishments, because those do more to improve the Legend playing experience at the mortal level. And strings should be IC to reflect that. Sallah's player |U6

From: Chocorua Thursday, October 31 2002, 10:16AM i'd have to disagree about strings being OOC. the coupons you turn in are definitely an OOC thing and soemtimes the actions taken to get them are OOC and the act of getting one from an imm (redeeming a coupon or getting a restring) is ooc.... BUT the actual string is very IC and probably more so than a piece of equipment that you get to sue because of stats but you really wouldn't use as that character. I guess my point is that some people have a very strange view of what IC and OOC are and what constitutes these. I don't believe this has much pertinence in a discussion about the game being less fun because there is little chalenge or penalty for actions. Chocorua |U6

From: LadyAce Thursday, October 31 2002, 10:29AM One clarification : when I say "strings are OOC" -- I mean that the whole notion of having a coupon in your hand, given to you by an immortal, which you exchange for having the description of an item changed -- that's OOC. So when I went on to say that making them IC is "RPing around" things, , that's because while, ok, you can make up a big story about how you were wearing a full suit of mail but through some very excellent magic it was transmogrified into a tutu and a pair of wings, that could well be good good RP and interesting for you, but it's a 'workaround' -- for plenty of folks, it's simply sensible that that's what they're wearing, and they might have any sort of explanation, and it might well not account for the fact that they had a little item in their hands and sent a tell to an immort. It's a 'suspend your disbelief' moment, maybe. At any rate, the distinction was posed to set them apart from, say, a necklace that you own because you just killed the owner, or a sword that you bought at a store. Because eq behaves consistent with an IC world, it's obtained via IC means, etc. Strings, on the other hand, are not consistent with an IC world until after they're on your equipment, and even then the strange magic which transformed the object isn't really explained. At any rate, my experience in doing strings has been that people strive to build some sort of consistent identity with them, and don't go 100% random, although a few do and it's a little funny :) but also fun for them, and that's important. To me, the string is more like you've gained a certain (limited) right to customization. If people use them to make strung eq which is OOC in nature and which has nothing to do with RP, that's their right -- I think it's way cooler to use those strings for RP, but I also understand that some folks don't find their fun that way. But the use of strings, and the "fiction behind strings" are two entirely different subjects. -LA |U6

From: Chocorua Thursday, October 31 2002, 11:19AM right and nowhere does any of that about strings have anything to do with a discussion on hwo the game has no challenge or consequences. it is just a justification by an individual to make the consequences go away. Chocorua |U6

From: LadyAce Thursday, October 31 2002, 12:41PM I don't think I quite parse what you were saying, Choc -- i.e. the "it is just a justification by an individual to make the consequences go away." go away" (i.e. I take 'it' to be my post, the individual to be me, but what are the consequences I'm making go away?) At any rate, the relevance of my comments to the discussion is what you asked about -- essentially that I see the eating of strings and the eating of equipment as distinct issues, and since they were both being invoked as part of discussion in the risk/reward balance of mobs, I was making my case for why it is that I don't think strings should be in the same discussion as equipment, or even mob challenge. I think of them er, them, as outside of the pure mobkill/exploring risk/reward scenario. In addition, since the non-eating-of-strings was being questioned as a general idea, I thought I'd give an outline of some of my thinking about why I support the current circumstance. -LA |U6

From: Chocorua Thursday, October 31 2002, 02:09PM well my point didn't come across the way I had intended it and the way things are going here at work today I will likely just get more insulting as teh day goes. Basically I think that the whole point of DT's is that they create a sense of danger that is intended to make the player use more caution and pay more attention to detail. With the strings being saved and there being so many clones of "one time only" items the penalty for hitting a DT is an inconvenience instead of the devestating blow that it SHOULD be. To clarify i liek teh cloned items because you still have to work to get them and most of them actually cost more rent or have otehr disadvantages. Strings need to have a way of finding their way out of the game to make them more precious. You could say "give out fewer" but that always comes off as the imms aren't running games, so they are ignoring us. DT's really aren't hit that often. I have a bad track record of hitting the more obvious ones and have only hit 4 in .. umm as long as legend has been here. I don't think that people lose that many as to make it a true 1 for 1 flow of strings into teh game for ones taken out but any that happen to leave hte game in this way would this was would be an improvement and give DT's back some of theirdanger. Choc |U6

From: Mariachi Friday, November 01 2002, 11:45PM So then, with all this talk of string-saving, has people just not noticed that that strung and timed items pop your string with them? I've been away a bit, and this string-saving concept is new to me... |U6

From: Mariachi Friday, November 01 2002, 11:46PM Hrm, ignore me. I'm dumb. |U6

From: Wraith Saturday, November 02 2002, 06:03AM It was suggested several years ago that coupons be treated as non-objects. The goal was to remove coupons from the economy by having them be saved as part of the player file. There were benefits to this idea, but because it would favor certain players too heavily, it wasn't implemented. However, what if strings were saved with pfiles and not on objects? Characters could have a slot strung and never have to worry about losing the string. Even if the character was using no equipment, it would look as if they were. For example, I could have my wield slot strung to " Excalibur" and regardless of what weapon I was using, or even if I didn't have a weapon equipped, it would look as if I was wielding Excalibur. At times this could look kind of odd. If I wasn't actually using a weapon, the combat message would show Excalibur doing pounding damage instead of slashing. |U6 Obviously, this was before strings were saved by DTs. Players would benefit by not having to worry about their string being lost or stolen. When they wanted to switch equipment around, they wouldn't have to find an imm to restring an item. Characters wouldn't lose an item in the restringing process. There are some drawbacks, of course. The string is permanent and the only way to change/remove it would be by getting another coupon, permadeath, or deletion. It would also only work with wear slots and short descriptions, so those who like to write long descs wouldn't be able to display their writing skills. They also wouldn't work for items that aren't normally worn, such as boats and bags. For some players, coupons are hard to obtain and losing them in a DT is very harsh. If Dts were changed back to eating strings to make players pay more attention as they explore, would it be more acceptable if there was a new type of coupon that would let characters string slots as described? Earning coupons would not change and they could still be exchanged between characters. This isn't something that I would code. I'm simply looking for opinions. :) - Wraith -- Possibly, strung items could override strung slots. |U6

From: Kae Saturday, November 02 2002, 07:38AM I rather like Wraith's idea of adding a new, specific coupon which overrides removal of items, basically. It'd come up there in value with the multi-colors because you could never ever lose it. And that'd be allright. I like it with DTs eating regular coupons and strings, that is. I like the idea of adding a coupon wich is worth a lot because it's basically DT-poof. I'm thinking it would be a 3 redemption point deal and a rare prize. On another note, there is also the option that DTs would eat some strings but not all -- it could be a 10, 25, 50, whatever percentage chance of loss. And finally -- while it's probably the most obvious (since it's gotten so much attention) way to re-instate a sense of risk to exploring, strings aren't the only issue at hand. I am still looking for player feedback on what wimping is good for us, and what should be made more dangerous. --Kae |U6

From: Craven Saturday, November 02 2002, 10:18AM Well, I'm not much of a Legend scholar, but this is one hell of a debate! All kinds of names we normally don't see popping up to lend their opinions on a very interesting topic. So I suppose since I'm writing here I should probably write something relating to the topic...as that would only make sense. :) I agree, amazingly enough, with Chocorua for the most part. What a kodak moment. The danger factor here has diminished to almost 0. With the advent of create mages elementals, there is now a class that can solo probably 80-85% of the game. And I'm not necessarily against that, but it does take a way a bit of that feeling of danger when some guy can just run up, conjure up an army, and destroy some mob it would take a group of 3 people to waste. With changes to the strings as mentioned earlier, what I call baby proofing has gained more popularity. People complain about sitting in inns with nothing to do with their full sets of strung gear and a bag of coupons, but part of the problem is they'll never lose them! I suppose I could start running around inns and giving afk level 50's platnum leafs, but I believe that illegal. :) Value tends to be defined by how hard to worked for it, and while occasionally people work fairly hard to get them, they certainly don't have to work hard to keep them. So, in closing of this scattered, crappy post, while I agree challenge is great, I ask you to please god not try to implement any. Its not a knock on the imm staff, but it seems your idea of challenge is exactly what Aegir said earlier, mobs with 40k hp that hit 5 times a round for 132 damage a hit. Thats not a challenge. Thats stupid. If, of course, you are interested in making real challenges...then that I full embrace. As for what someone said about the ideal mud having an area for everyone and if you didn't like it because it was too hard, you could go elsewhere, thats a great theory, but unfortunately legends influx of areas as of late has been pretty small, with almost all of them leaning towards 50+ type areas. That doesn't sound fair. :) - Craven is way to tired to be posting...I should probably delete this but I'm too lazy! |U6

From: Camaris Saturday, November 02 2002, 12:43PM I have to agree.....where is the 'danger' in a DT? While I dont have many strings, yes. I would be upset at thier loss, so I also see that side of the arguement. Perhaps, as Kae stated, a percentage loss (although I would prefer a flat number...say, 5 strings save from this DT, 3 from that one, etc....) could be implemented? Not much to be said in this post, but I figured I should throw in my two cents worth

From: chuckle

From: - Cam's player |U6

From: Aegir Sunday, November 03 2002, 10:28PM really liked wraith's idea... and on the thought of DTs eating 'some' strings, hrmmm, well to get a normal anything coupon is pretty hard to do, whereas getting strings from the prize machine is quite easy to do (people have houses full that they sell for canned prices of 15-25k, which is about 15 mins of money running). so, if something like this does get imp'd how about they eat prize machine, elf-game, etc strings but not 'real' strings. when i get a coupon i use it to string my weapon to something very unique for my character, that fits the RP if possible. maybe this just means wraith's idea for coupons and leave prize machine strings the way they are? also, and would like craven's thoughts on this, here's another opinion: if they coding department has time to code stuff like this, stuff that barely effects gameplay, i would rather see new skills/hometowns/pets balance things get done first............... |U6

From: Lianna Tuesday, November 05 2002, 03:25PM Since Kae is looking for suggestions on how to make challenges, I will try to list a few random thoughts, that will hopefully make sense to someone other than myself. I'd have to agree that a mob that has a gazillion hp, attacks trice a round with its bare hands and do 100+ damage while tumbling everything doesn't seem like a challenge to me. I guess the hard part is making a mob a challenge for a group while also having it vulnerable to certain tactics. -And not making it insanely disproportional from pcs. One kind of challenge, that I like that is already in the game, is how certain shaman's fight in the game: By the use of charmies/spells in the same manner as pcs can. But of course, not all challenging mobs should be mages:) (Did I ever have a point?) Another could be the danger of having friends of equal difficulty nearby, though not an overpowering number. But those aren't really new.. I suppose I rather wanted to explain how I think a mob is a challenge, rather than list new ideas. Suppose I'll have to think more on it and write Kae! Lianna Shannara - confused novice of the Knights Templar. |U6

From: Sallah Wednesday, November 06 2002, 02:55AM Another way to make mobs more difficult without making them do absurdly miraculous damage with their bare hands, would be to greatly expand the assistance habits of surrounding mobs. Too many mobs on Legend just stand idly by while you kill their families and friends. Even a create is faced with a challenge when several mobs are on the attack, and you could perhaps even specialize it so that you have to cast a certain spell or do a certain skill or action to prevent the horde of mobs from massacring you. It could add a new dimension of strategy. Sallah's player |U6

From: Darla Wednesday, November 06 2002, 03:26AM on making the game more challenging... It's one thing to make mobs harder, but all that does is challenge mages to prepare with more charmies, other chars to prepare with getting a big group together. That isn't challenge, it's just increasing prep time. To make the GAME more challenging, you have to make areas dangerous for us all the time, not just when we decide it's time to start the fight. I like what has been being done with increasing accountability for your actions in some areas, you attack a mob and others in the area become agg to you. I'd like to see more of that kind of thing, except staying for a much longer time. Once you kill, you get a murderer/criminal flag, and then the guards then are agg to you, maybe even hunt you down, until you do a quest or something to redeem yourself. Or quests where depending on how you do it, it makes some mobs agg (as in Alaska). These things could make areas much more dangerous for those who want it, but still be newbie friendly. -dly. Also, more random events that can hurt you: nasty weather affects like sunburns, heatstroke, frostbite, flu, boats that may fall apart (I think most boats used to be this way, but it was changed?), various natural disasters. Whatever fits into different areas. Note all these are things to hurt and kill you. These add enough risk to make the game interesting and fun. The risk of losing strings just makes people not want to play. |U6

From: Herbert Wednesday, November 06 2002, 07:50PM Ok I read ALL of the appends god that took forever, anyway here are the few feeble points I want to make.. 1. Strings - To Save or Not To Save? I liked Wraiths idea of a DT-Proof coupon system which would be a high end prize, and I liked LA's idea of eating prize strings and lesser prize quality strings both are good options as long as those poor unfortunates who already have their string sets can somehow convert to these DT-Proof versions or something.. But yeah DT's SHOULD be scarier, as it stands you DT and assuming you know enough people you can be re-eq'd in hours, right down to annoying SL/PD/OneTime Quest items. 2. Mobs - How Much Death Is Enough? Basically all the appends up till now have said what I have thought as well, about massive hps and hitting hard does not make a mob a challenge, what i would like to see its effects and such being more of an issue.. bloodloss is a good example because you cant do much about it at present short of renting it off, and Bart's paris mobs are good examples as well, where they target healers (Mellieu being the best example of that yet, as he has justification for it) But challenge should come with reason, i dont want to see english knights in polished plate mail casting firestorm at me just so they will be harder to kill, just as I dont want to see gray haired wizards damcapping me and alternating bashing me.. Im all for change and challenge, just make sure its executed with a good reason. 3. Hippos - Just To Finish Up. The hippos were the cause of it all, but I have to say thanks for posting it on welcome and letting us know, and thanks for making that post entertaining sounding so that I would actually read it, this year i say we all vote Hungry Hungry Hippos as best bug. Herbert. |U6

From: Herbert Wednesday, November 06 2002, 07:59PM oh yeah I just recalled the making teachers charge for highend skills thing someone bought up, that was a cool idea, but only if you can find a way for a 25str dex mage to carry 50k for me first. but yeah its a nice idea H |U6

From: Sigrid Friday, November 08 2002, 02:27PM As for the strings issue: DTs back to eating strings. Strings are no harder to get than eq. And why not punish stupid and clumsy people as much as possible. As for the hippos: It was my boat. And now its famous. And I dont like loosing my strings to dumb hippos when DTs dont eat the neighbours string. But I certainly never ever hoped for the quite nice act being taken out of the game. If I'd known this'd be the consequence I believe I would have just not said anything. But for the main issue: A loud, yes, I want challenges. No, I dont want the entire place made easier. But I guess in order to stop the process I should start whining some (more) ? Since that is part of what's caused some of the downgrades? The Icelander for more places where you need a brain to survive! |U6

From: Wraith Saturday, November 09 2002, 05:34AM The problem I see with having DTs only eat certain items is that it doesn't usually make any sense. If indians ambushed you, they might leave a few items around, but why would they all be strung? If a random chance of having an item being eaten is used, then it should apply to all objects; strung or otherwise. If a bag is lost, then the chance of losing items from the bag should be extremely high; a few items could still fall out and be found later. To be honest though, I don't care much for DTs. In most cases, there is a logical way that items should be recovered, but they just aren't allowed. I'd prefer to see rooms that slay PCs, but still allow the possiblity, even if it is almost non-existant, to re-enter the room and regain the items. DTs should be left to bottomless pits, vats of acid and the like. Even then, you may be able to enter without dying. From my experience, players tend to avoid challenging mobs until their character is level 50. At that point, it's difficult to make a challenging mob that doesn't cheat. Consider the gond. He examines the PC that he's fighting to see what tactics and skills will work best. However, he is also almost guaranteed to have higher fight stats. While his skills are likely to work against the areas your character is weak, he doesn't have any corresponding weakness to be exploited. He was also insanely tough with the first revision I made; defeating Sune and Dew together. After many reductions in difficulty, he can still be a challenge to some characters. What exactly is desired in a challenging mob? Excitement or a big reward? If you are bored with the mobs that you have been fighting (at any level), which ("non-cheating") mob do you go and fight solely for fun? - Wraith |U6

From: Craven Saturday, November 09 2002, 02:49PM the problem with people not fighting challenging mobs or whatever until 50 was created by the imms when you changed xp. Noone fights mobs bigger then them anymore because its simply not worth it. I MIGHT be able to take out a level 50 mob for 60k at level 35. A good challenge, odds are probably against me, not for me. Or I could go fight 4 mobs my own level for 15k a piece and maybe lose 100 hp. While we want challenges, we want to advance as well. Its a fine line to walk. And usually when presented with the two choices, people will choose advance over challenge. I don't know the best way to fix this without making leveling too easy, but I guess it would be to give a bonus again to fighting mobs above your level. I DO NOT think making mobs your own level do more damage will fix this, it will just make people that much more upset. I simply try to hit 50 now so I can pk, though I haven't made a new character and leveled it up to 50 in a long, long time. I USED to fight mobs because it was challenging and interesting. So in conclusion, that is my feeling on mobs, challenges, and progression. However, it seems to be the imms general concensus that leveling should be a slow, boring procedure alone and some incredible joy ride if your willing to join groups of 5-10 and go fight in these "group" areas like pd, sl, and at. I won't even go into my feelings about these areas. :) - Craven |U6

From: Karrion Saturday, November 09 2002, 10:54PM I personally hope you make Inferno nice and tough, but it would really be a dissapointment if the only folks who didn't need a group to do it were con keres. One of my favorite things about the old hell was that if you familiarized yourself with the area you could run round the whole place solo. That was where I xped from 25 to 50, where I got all my gold, where I hid out if I was bein' chased by someone with a massive level advantage on me and so on. There was still a risk of dying is something happened to go wrong, or you ran into a mob you didn't mean to, but point is that you could go there solo. We don't need another SL/PD/AT/KZ, all of those are great for groups, but where the hell are you supposed to go solo? I understand that community and socialization are things you guys want to encourage, but it'd be really nice if that wasn't your only option for areas more difficult (or less crowded) than Klien and Crusades. |U6


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