Posted by Lex on 01/14
Does anyone else think the rent on housing is way too high?
Take for example my garret
Initial cost: 228,000
Daily Rent: 2,900
Yearly Rent: 1,058,500
Yes, that's right! The yearly rent is over 4 times the building cost!
This game is supposed to be fun -- not a job away from my job! Yes,
getting gold is faily easy to do, but its NO FUN! How about putting the
fun back in? Wasn't the point of housing to let players put a little
something back into the game? I can't fathom what it would be like to
try to maintain a 3-4 room "home" for each of my level 50 characters...
Three to four million per year of money running -- NO THANKS!
Would be nice if I could share 1 house across chars but that is probably
against the rules of crossplay.
Many long term players may remember when people got each other equipment
for free... never see that now... everyones too busy money running, or
they have to charge you to supplement the insanely high cost of
contributing to this mud.
-Lex Luthor, hating the 'high-rent' district
Tuesday, November 26 2002, 01:55PM
another thought -- anyone else wonder why the newbie boxes here
are almost always empty? yeah, because everyone takes the stuff
and sells it at the closest merchant...
Tuesday, November 26 2002, 07:05PM
initial building cost: 0
rent 10% tithe
yearly rent what ever i want to donate
ever consider, houses my have been put in for the good of the groups
not the good of the lone?
if you don't like a house, don't have one..cuz thats all the imms will say
Tuesday, November 26 2002, 07:06PM
Personaly I haven't had a house since my alts bank account dropped
from like 2 million to 0 and couldn't pay for it. Obviously not all of
this was housing charges, but quite a chunk was...anyways I agree money
running is just to painfully boring, i'm doing a set of mobs that gets
me like 12k per repop(assuming the store is open, which it isnt ever :P)
but as soon as I get the +5 item I need from this random item dropping
jerk, i'll go back to more important things...money and xp both
From: yanno...and actualy one of the most annoying things here is I have
to kill a mob with two good items for someone and he only needs one of them
items so I drop the other in the closest newbie box or whatever I run sl
and nobody wants any of the items so they all go in..yanno whatever..the
point is I am constantly(when I am playing, which hardly can be called
constantly anymore :P) dropping good items into the newbie boxes and
constantly coming back 10 minutes later to see them all gone, which is fine
fine it's what they are there for, but then 2 minutes later I see rune
circled ring or whatever on auction that's just annoying...maybe the boxes
can have like a level 10 limit? Anyone over level 10 can't get stuff
out of the boxes...now this probably wouldn't do much except make a buncha
low level characters really rich but...better them than some level 50
jerk who could get the item on thier own :P I know getting gold when you
are small is even more painful than when you are big, so I wouldn't even
care really but maybe thats just me.
Wednesday, November 27 2002, 08:20AM
this is mostly to Habeeb:
i see your point, however BEFORE housing went in there already were
guild halls, and in my opinion better ones than we have now with te 6
trans mobs that could be killed to cut off escape routes.
so, one could draw the conclusion that housing was put in so that people
NOT in guilds could also have 'halls'...
Wednesday, November 27 2002, 10:36AM
But before housing went in, anything dropped in a clan hall
poofed with the next reboot/crash. And IMO housing is expensive
but having the ability to save random items over time is
Wednesday, November 27 2002, 11:40AM
i suppose, but most of the random items sitting in houses are stupid
items like eggs, and jack-o-lanterns and stupid strings no one wants
i think houses are basically garbage cans these days for things we
dont want to have to look at :P
Wednesday, November 27 2002, 02:19PM
Presumably if people are paying to keep them, they don't mind looking
at them :) the junk command is handy for unwanted stuff.
I agree that housing is expensive (having had a house and lost it,
myself) -- but I'm not sure I can agree that it's too expensive. All
kinds of benefits come from having a house, and maintaining them is
not all that difficult -- money running is not all that difficult. It
does take regular effort, but I've found that the only times I had
trouble maintaining a reasonable house was when I wasn't logging in
Maybe it'd be more fun to have a house if you used a different philosophy
of money running -- selling nice eq and killing wealthy mobs can give
you a big lump sum, but are less reliable methods. Just hacking up
a few mobs with good eq, getting it and selling it, might take a few
minutes, and only move you up bit by bit, but it's often much more
efficient. You can make it part of your ongoing experience -- set up
a coins trigger, watch yourself get loaded up with gold fast. Keep
an eye out all the time for light, sellable-to-shops type stuff.
Do some of the money-earning quests now and then. If it's a pain to
get money in small daily chunks, get it in massive incredible chunks,
and vice versa. I know that when I got in a rut earning cash, that's when
I got reallllly bored with it.
Just some thoughts, anyways....
Thursday, November 28 2002, 11:23AM
it might worth it if you didn't pay MORE rent to have an item in it. That
bothers me more then anything else about housing, and is why I refuse to
buy a house. I buy it, pay it in FULL, then have to pay incredible rent
on something I own, and lets not forget if I choose to PUT anything in it,
I will now probably pay 3-4 times the normal rent value. Its a stupid
system and it really ruins housing in my opinion. But some people seem
to love it, so I guess at least a feature that took forever to code
appeals to a few people. I bet if I could save items in my house without
going broke in 2 days would make a lot of people like them more.
Thursday, November 28 2002, 11:52AM
my suggestion to i think cheyla was to double the initial cost of
houses, and make the house/door/lock/etc zero rent. so it would cost
about 1 million gold for a nice 2-4 room house, and you'd only pay
daily rent on stuff thats inside it, i.e. extra equipment.
another really cool thing i thought of, might take a wee bit of coding,
was to add a special "ancient timeless chest" items, items where if you
put a timed item in them it would not decay until removed from said
chest. you could keep whatever you wanted in it.
another possible solution would be give more cash to high level mobs.
abbot sugar is on most everyone's money run, for a reason. what if big
mobs like jim southland, sayyid said, etc had 5k-10k gold? or what if
they had a chest/jar in their room and you re-used the code in the abbey
basement so that the coins appeared when they are killing in said chest?
Friday, November 29 2002, 01:03AM
I agree with Mandarb on this one, having to pay rent for eq you already
own is kinda gay. I think lock/door/rooms and stuff should incure rent
charges, but your stuff inside should not. Some of us don't spend every
waking minute, or even more than a day or two a week on here. With rand
stat items, switching eq is something you have to get a full SL group for
so you can get it done RIGHT THEN, or gimp yourself by losin' no longer
need eq and make the switchin' even harder. Random stuff make the time
it takes to switch even greater as well, I have had to store about half
of a full eq set for around 4 to 5 days before, because 3 random items
refused to pop the right one.
Blah, blah, blah.. Take off housing rent on eq and other items inside
and I wouldn't see the problem. Be kinda coo if the rent was collected
monthly rather than daily, as well.
Friday, November 29 2002, 05:02AM
From: No nests for lazybirdgirls!
Err, but that aside. I think if all the eq that goes into your house
is all free rent that's a little bit er - unreasonable. Shouldn't be
able to store a full eq set for 2k rent!
What I think might be more reasonable is for eq to rent for free _up to_
the daily rent of the house. I.e. if your daily rent is 2.8k and you put
a 2.7k piece of gear in your house, you don't pay rent on it. But! If the
gear or the amount of stuff in your house adds up to 2.9k, then you pay
2.9k (or whatever) per day. Basically deduct the daily rent from the rent
you pay for thingies that you put in your house.
This would also give more incentive to get big ookiy 15k rent houses!
(And um, is ooky to pay for zips.
(Not sure if I was clear so um. You pay daily rent, and the balance of
any rent on gear that is in your house and exceeds your daily rent!)
From: Ponders that sentence being any clearer.
Saturday, November 30 2002, 12:21PM
OK, I swear I was gonna append exactly the same suggestion that Wren had,
and exactly for the same reasons, if you paying 15k rent for an house
why not to have at least 15k of object rentable at no cost?
So far beside RP reasons i see no advantage on having a big house
vs a small cottage.
Tuesday, December 03 2002, 02:25AM
Maybe it could be optional when you pay rent too? If I wanna pay 2k per
day or 60k a month or...a ton per year, for people like me who log on
once a month and find that thier 2k per day rent has pigged out thier
bank account, we could log in for our montly and go "Oh crap I better
sell a coupon to some dork fast!" And make our monthly payment
Cause as it stands now I could never have a house, hell I just lost
like 4 casino coupons because of how often I log in.
Tuesday, December 03 2002, 02:28AM
One more thing, and I realize this probably only applys to me but
I get sick of playing one char and if you have a daily rent thing
you gotta play that char to maintain them and thier house and whatever
when I get on I wanna log on to whatever character I like the most at the
time. Not have to log into stupid akai cause his stupid 5k per day payments
requires that I run around like a monkey with its head cut off trying to
kill some freakin gold mobs that this character gets butchered by, what
with his wierd stats and lack of skills. One more thing sorta on this
same point, what if you could transfer houses between alts? Houses
don't really do anything for a character so it's not like buying a house
with a level 50 and switching it to your level 10 would do much good
since they wouldn't be able to pay the rent anyways, so I don't see
why this wouldn't work. Would let me not be bound by who has the
housing payments to keep up either, play who I want when I want
Thursday, December 05 2002, 10:01AM
yea i dont think that would work akai, cuz you could probably store
eq in the house, transfer it to your lowbie, get all the eq, then
transfer back, making it an easy way to switch eq between alts :P
Saturday, December 07 2002, 01:00PM
The Wren idea has been suggested before and was shot down. I
Monday, December 09 2002, 07:49AM
just too lame for me, i sold my house =P
Wednesday, December 18 2002, 03:33AM
door can add to the already high rent cost, hence me without a door =p
Wednesday, December 18 2002, 08:43AM
Oh, please, 100 coins a day is too much for you? Sorry, but that's sad,
especially considering where your house is. That's like one mob a day
there. You'll forgive me if I don't sympathize with you, but rather
every single player who complains that you're lacking a door when they
accidentally wander into your house.
Wednesday, December 18 2002, 11:09AM
they add up, +(
Thursday, December 19 2002, 11:29AM
Hmm. Gonna have to agree with Kaige here. I've stumbled into your house
From: If you dumped some of your duplicate photos you could
probably afford the door. And those hovels are pretty cheap, right?
Probably not more than 3K a day? I just made 3k in 6 kills, took about
15 minutes (course I took time out to talk with someone and made a
phone call in there as well), so I'm not sure what's not adding up
for you the right way...
Finlay the wanderer
Friday, January 03 2003, 11:28PM
My DAILY rent, on the average, for my villa and a Castle
in the crusades... for the sake of RP... is some $90,000 gold.
Yes, that is daily. I wish I could get away with your rent
and still have all that is needed. I cant. I run like a madwoman,
have others that help when they can, collect needed things, and
sell off items, coupons, strings as needed. Does it get insane sometimes?
HELL yes! Is it worth it in the longrun? I think it is. Housing tends,
for many people, to have RP basis as well as just a place to rent and
keep some of your possessions. For me the RP is very important and
without the housing the rp would not quite be the same.
I can agree that housing can be very expensive, but keep in mind that
people house per their needs. 1 room, 3 rooms, or a couple dozen rooms :)
How important is your purpose to you?
Saturday, January 04 2003, 08:57PM
Not at all. Give houses a use other then rp and maybe I'll buy one.
Sunday, January 05 2003, 11:19PM
For all those that complain to me about my house, here is a few points...
- without those photos, I won't even bother keeping up a house =p,
- duplicate photos? why? cause I like to have them, nuff said,
- how important is the house to me? (MG), not important enough to pay the extra rent for door
extra rent for door.
- there is a few others, but I forgot what I was going to write =p
ps- maybe later in time, doors will be free, and you can all thanks me for it =)
Monday, January 06 2003, 09:57AM
I think the fundamental flaw in the whole housing thing is in its name.
Other than the 'neat' factor of being able to claim stake to your own
corner of Legend, 'housing' was, from its original inception, a way
to bleed money out of the system. Other than food and water, money
exchanged hands; it never left the system. 'Housing' was a voluntary
method for getting money out of the game, and in turn, making
some effort at retaining the value of the gold piece.
But, in all fairness to me, it was easier to name the constants
HOUSE_PRIMARY_ONLY rather than
The former, on a code level, is just much easier to work with, and,
well, 'housing' has a snazzier name.
There is no analogy to any real-life housing arrangement. There was
never one by design. For its intended 2 purposes: giving people a
bit of legend, taking money out of the game, the system works. The
clincher though is that it's voluntary. There's absolutely no encounter,
quest, game changing event that requires you have a house (the opposite,
though, isn't true, again, by design - some quests can open the ability
to build housing in certain areas).
Here's what it boils down to: If you think housing is unfair in cost,
if you think the reward you get for the amount of effort you put into
maintaining it is not worth your time, don't use the housing code.
Monday, January 06 2003, 01:33PM
I almost buy your arguement Ruf, but not quite. Here's why:
1) You and the builders have put significant time into housing to
make it not only functional but interesting and appealing.
2) Despite what you say, most of the features of housing do in fact
provide an analogy to rela-life housing.
3) Again, despite what you say, the implementation of housing did
cause a game changing event, that being the 'ripping out' of the old
clan hall system.
So, what have we? An elaborite housing system that sucks money out of
the game, for those choose to participate, which has in fact increased
the amount of money going into the system because everyone and all thier
alts money-run day in and day out. Hmmmmmmmm... working as intended?
Why not just sell coupons? Why not just subtract 5% from all bank accounts
I don't think anyone is calling for a re-write of housing, just that the
cost be scaled better to the reward. The daily charges for a moderate
3-4 room house are ridiculous, given that its per char not per RL player.
The best suggestion I saw was that if you own a 10k / day rent house you
get up to 10k worth of gear storage.
Another suggestion, increase the initial cost and decrease the daily cost
by a factor of 10.
Or, here's one I know you'll love, put back the old clan hall system and
see how many houses get demolished?
But you are right on one point, it is optional, and like many others here
who find money running insanely boring, I choose not to have a house.
Monday, January 06 2003, 04:29PM
"You and the builders have put significant time into housing to
make it not only functional but interesting and appealing."
- never said it wasn't interesting and appealing. Interesting/appealing
does not equal necessity, though.
"Despite what you say, most of the features of housing do in fact
provide an analogy to rela-life housing."
- If they do, a very bad one. In real life, you buy a house as
an investment. It either increases or decreases in value. If you
rent, you don't own. If you own, you don't rent. There may be an
analogy in that in both RL and 'housing' on Legend, your domicile
consists of a series of rooms connected by passageways or doors.
Beyond that, it doesn't hold up. There is no situation in RL that
is even close to how it's set up here. Sorry.
"Again, despite what you say, the implementation of housing did
cause a game changing event, that being the 'ripping out' of the old
clan hall system."
- Hate to be the burster of bubbles, but the old clan hall system was
going bye bye whether housing was going to be implemented or not.
Adding clan ability to purchase/own/maintain housing was implemented
solely because it was relatively simple with the design mechanisms
put in place to track house ownership.
"Why not just sell coupons?"
Because strings have a specific place in the game as a reward for a
different type of activity. The rate they come into the game isn't
determined by the amount of effort someone puts into the game system
(eg by killing mobs, collecting gold).
"... subtract 5% from all bank accounts ..."
Because we want it to be voluntary and give something in return.
"The daily charges for a moderate 3-4 room..."
Buy a smaller house if you think it's too expensive.
"given that its per char not per RL player."
Everything, with the exception of warnings/bannings which are strictly
an out-of-game type deal, is based per character. That won't change.
"The best suggestion I saw was that if you own a 10k ..."
A fundamental design decision in Legend's core creation was that
Legend will never have 'lockers.' Housing bent that rule ever
so slightly, but it won't budge beyond that. A 10K room gives you
a room. Period. If you want to store stuff beyond your X rent
limit, you pay for it.
"Another suggestion, increase the initial cost and decrease the daily cost
by a factor of 10."
Ahh, the diamond in the rough. Actually, housing daily cost has already
been halved once. Think about that, refine the idea. Toss it around...
"put back the old clan hall system"
Not gonna happen. Ever. Sorry. Period. The nightmare of dealing with the
old clann hall system on an immort level was staggering.
"But you are right on one point, it is optional..."
Actually, I'm right on a few more points, but thanks =)
"who find money running insanely boring, I choose not to have a house."
Face it. Housing is like the lottery with a consistent losing return.
The lottery's a tax for people who don't know how to do math. Think about
it. Enjoy your house, but realize that they're not going to turn into
an appreciable investment.
Monday, January 06 2003, 07:50PM
ohh, old clan hall system, how about old clans? And kick those freeforming one back to
one back to the abyss?
Tuesday, January 07 2003, 08:13AM
The old clan system, like old clan halls, are gone. Forever. That
system was an awful lot of work for the staff, and ain't gonna
Tuesday, January 07 2003, 09:33AM
old clan system
the part that i would like to have back is the 'trans' mobs. you
could (if you wanted) code it so each clan can pick 1 mob per era
as a trans mob, set a password, and have it summon you to the hall.
of course the 'clan hall' would be a house in the current system,
bought and paid for, minus the daily rent, where the door was removed
and no exit provided, save some sort of mort command to return to the
trans mob you entered from. you could have the nightly job that
subtracts rent from all bank accounts delete any item in the hall
is this a lot of work? probably. too much? relative to your opinion
on the value of the old system vs. the current system.
Tuesday, January 07 2003, 09:36AM
to address some of Rufus' points:
by features of housing comparing favorably to real life i was speaking
of doors, furnature, lighting, the different rooms (bedroom/closet/kitchen)
/etc). in the financial/investment sense, you are correct, they don't.
and, as to coupons coming into the game not being determined by the amount
of effort someone puts into the game, what about redeeming for coupons,
which is based purely on xp, i.e. the amount of effort someone puts into
ok, didn't know old clan system was going not being an immort
as for houses not being a locker for equipment, not sure i agree 100%.
currently they are, it just costs gold. and, seems to me most are
a locker for strings and photos and other crap thats zero rent...
even a 1 room house with a door has rent of near 3000. thats about
1.1 million gold, i have characters from 5+ years ago that dont have that
much gold saved up.
"attempt at refining the idea you liked"
1) double the cost of building (for new houses)
2) keep the rent charge the same, but make it once per week instead of daily
3) make EVERY house come with a default door of some type, and update
that stupid house near the stag =P
Tuesday, January 07 2003, 10:19AM
Adding 'passwords' to trans mobs and having them linked to certain
rooms to trans people to requires a reboot.
From: automate it, what's to stop someone from choosing
a quest mob and a password that is already on a keyword list
they have? Either making the trans mob useless or the mob's
trigger text useless.
The amount of code required to emulate the subjective look it took
to evaluate each trans mob when it was requested would be immense.
It's not coming back. Debating it is futile.
Monday, January 13 2003, 01:48PM
From: nod ruf
i didn't expect that all to be automated, too much coding for
the benefit. but the old clan hall system, while maybe creating
a ton of imm overhead, was a very cool feature to this mud.
just my 2 cents...
Tuesday, January 14 2003, 07:31AM
Just a note, my house is 1568 rent, able to rent, with lighting,
a door, and a bunch of stuff I don't want to throw away. There's
an even cheaper one in Malta. I bet there are less expensive ones
other places too, but I'm happy with my fishin' hut.
Housing is useful to characters/players for a lot of things and
there are plenty of options ranging from "dingy little room to
hold yer stuff and have privacy" to "huge expensive place adding
a whole new element to rp". The cool thing is we all get to pick.
Except the door thing. People at intersections should be required
to get doors. :P