Posted by Ahania on 04/15
I have discussed the matter with what I feel to be just about
every variety of person this mud has. From the "hardcore" pk'ers (atleast
that is what some of them have chosen to label themselves), to The rp
pk'ers, and even the people who simply duel with friends. People of
all sorts seem in favor of the idea. Some, like myself, are opposed
or somewhat torn.
I understand the frustration with current pk. But I have become even
more frustrated with the romanticized view of old school pk. It seems over
time, everyone has forgotten why pkok was put in the first place.
Problems were tremendous. Whining was constant, and many people have
chosen to forget about the dead periods that occurred then-when yes,
indeed, there was very little pk going on. The fact of the matter is
that old school pk was a problem, and pkok was the solution. Whether
it had the desired effect or not, going back in time is hardly going
to remedy a single thing-it will simply do just that, return back to a
time that ranting and whining is constant.
To people who are frustrated with the current status of pk and long
for the freedom to jump anyone who is enabled, why are you not
accept all? If you are accept all, then you are likely reading
the averages. 1-3 people are accept all at any given time. If
everyone is dying so terribly to get old school pk back, why are
you not all rejecting the pkok system and making a statement that
you can handle being jumped by anyone and everyone. If you want the
old system, make it yours-type accept all.
I have also heard excitement in regards to "old players," who left
when pkok went in, coming back. Is this really exciting? I miss some
of the people who have left, but I do not know if this community supports
those who play the game for one reason. This is a versatile mud. If
you are only playing it for one reason, and a single change can
make you leave, perhaps this is not the mud for you. In this case,
you are likely to leave again, anyways.
Assuming this change does go in, I pity the clans it will destroy
and the characters that will have to be remade. Despite it all, I
enjoy many aspects of the mud and plan to continue enjoying many
aspects-even if one of them is taken away from me.
Wednesday, April 09 2003, 11:17AM
Wednesday, April 09 2003, 12:49PM
From what I gathered of what was said, they're not taking anything away
at all. They're
From: the PKE option alongside PKOK, because a lot of
the people who have gone AA to try and recreate the old system have found
a glaring problem: unlike in old PK, if an AA gets jumped by somebody,
there's no guarantee that AA can get any kind of retribution. With
system that comes along, there will always be some people who seek the
loopholes and abuse it. PKOK solved the old problems with PK, but it also
introduced new ones, and to claim otherwise is to ignore the big picture
just as much as those who claim PKOK did no good and old PK was a perfect
system. PKOK, like old PK, has many holes for abuse, except that now
instead of the new and uninformed being abused, it's the veterans who want
to recreate the more dangerous, but also more exciting, form of PK abused
by info-seekers and general [insert your favorite expletive here].
I don't see why
From: is complaining about the proposition for PKE.
From what I read, PKOK will still work exactly the same as it did before,
but those who choose to go PKE will, in addition to having regular access
to the PKOK functions, will automatically and irreversibly be accepting
and accepted by everybody else who has gone PKE--including all PK clans,
which finally creates a real difference between PK and RP clans under new
PK (I never did understand how the hell the clan accept thing was supposed
to work, but I may just be dense). At least, I assume that's what PKE is
going to do--stop me if I'm wrong, random imms. My point is that you
people who are complaining are acting like PKOK is being removed and we're
just going back to the old system, when it seemed to me pretty clear from
the Q&A log that's not even remotely the case. What the imms seem to be
doing is trying to mix PKOK with the original system as best they can to
please everybody, and it's probably the best compromise they could get.
-Dolor Ferriscor, who may just start playing seriously with PKE.
Wednesday, April 09 2003, 02:20PM
Agreed that it seems PKE will exist alongside PKOK,
but I doubt it will remove any of the problems that existed
with old-style pkill. They will most likely just arise again,
annoying a lot of people.
Wednesday, April 09 2003, 02:55PM
Ninety percent of the problems with oldstyle PK came from people who
didn't want oldstyle PK and all its negative aspects (jumping, multi'ing,
wolfpacking, looting, etc.). Ninety percent of the problems with PKOK
come from people who don't want PKOK and all its negative aspects (the
inability to know who you can fight from day to day, people who attack you
then reject you the next day so you can't fight back, massive crossplay
issues with PK over alts, etc.). Oldstyle PK was fraught with problems,
and PKOK is no better. By trying to combine the strengths of each system,
people who don't want oldstyle PK's problems can stick to PKOK, and people
who don't want PKOK's problems can just go PKE. You can't please 'em all,
but at least this comes closer than oldstyle PK
From: PKOK ever could.
Wednesday, April 09 2003, 11:04PM
Are you afraid that with old pk it the clan system will return to one Rp
clan, nph, and the rest being only pk clans? Is that what you mean by clans
clans being destroyed? 'Cause that was really more of a housing issue
not a pk issue...so what clans could possibly be destroyed? What characters?
characters? Clans who don't have anything to do with pk now won't need to
if this comes in and neither will characters, how exactly is it supposed
to destroy anything? Oh wait, maybe the imms will reinstate the one pk
enabled character per player rule and find us all guilty of breaking it
because we have many pkok enabled characters as is, is that what you are
afraid of? As for whining in old pk the people who whined were exactly
the kind of people pkok as sifted out of the system, the RP pkers. You
never heard a grendel or a merc crying 'cause they got looted. We left that
that kind of sissy behaviour to people like the Runeknights. Heh. And
they can stay right where they are, these nasty little Rp pkers, don't
feel the need to join pke. Stay with your little controlled boring fights
with a script all written out and everything. Matter of fact, take up
emote fighting, you'd all probably like it more. As for the old players
I think you underestimate what pkers do for everyone...who do you think
is more likely to explore a new area? An Rper looking for some item to
wave around on chat or a pker looking for a room that screws up thier
opponant? From my experience Rpers stay in thier little mud houses or in
inns and sit around doing what they do best, play acting. What interest
does an Rper have in finding a new item with awesome stats, it doesn't help
help them "serve the dark lord" Or "distribute the churchs justice" any
better, so why should they try? And from my experience they don't.
I can't wait for some of these old players to come back it will move pk
from any number of grendels or grendel alts fighting the same stupid fights
fights over and over to something a little more exciting...and maybe it
will move the rest of the mud from sitting around running klein over and
over and waiting for thier create buddy to run pd to hopefully doing
something together as a real group again, maybe explore some of those
new areas. All the old pkers left and suddenly nobody runs anything
unless it is a create based sl or pd. Whats with this paris expansion?
How would I know. Despite being active again for at least 6 monthes I have
never even seen a run go there. And i've only heard about 2 of them.
Anyways with that rant out of the way...on to the part about people
romanticizing old pk...I couldn't agree more with that. Half the time I
hear people "remembering" things that aren't true the other half they are
saying this and that never happened, when I just got done doing 'this
and it's totaly true that if we really cared we all would have just gone AA
AA and continued on as if pkok never existed...well that is true now at
least, but when pkok came in it had an ungodly amount of bugs or oversights
and ways to abuse the system. Would you keep sending in articles to the Lt
if a third of the time instead of a token kaige purged your character?
I don't think you would...the point is this ungodly pkok system was thrust
upon us with virtually no warning and us having no say in the matter and
those who did try to stay and work it out were abused by the same people
who got the ungodly awful system imp'd in the first place.
What happened when that witch post title was thrust upon you Rpers?
Did you go "by god then my character will Rp through his reputation of
witchcraft!" Hell no, you whined and whined and in some cases went beyond
whining to abusing the imms. I think we handled pkok a tad better. I
remember imms laughing at us, taunting us, telling us too damn bad. I don't
remember imms being on the verge of tears because of something we've said
Anyways what do I care about any of this crap. Guess it's time to end
Sana--Will kill you all one day pkok or not.
Wednesday, April 09 2003, 11:37PM
AHA! I think I finally understand what you meant about destroying clans
and characters. It was so obvious how could I have missed it? You. Are.
A. Knight! You are worried that now knights will be called on to live
up to the pk clan they used to be and still claim to be right? Thats what
you mean about destroying clans right..? And what you mean about destroying
characters must be...you Rp'ers will have to perma or drastically change
the Rp of thier characters who have seeped into the once great knights clan
clan right? Wow that is a good concern actually...I am so happy I could
die...maybe knights will cast off all it's dead weight and regain just a
little bit of its former glory...
Sana--Wishes there was RPOK.
Thursday, April 10 2003, 01:10AM
I think Ahania was questioning the fact that there will most likely
be ONE pke character per player. Which does mean that some people
will be forced to choose which pkiller they wish to keep as PKE,
and which to go PKOK with instead.
Thursday, April 10 2003, 09:27AM
Although I don't really see how that's an issue given that pke
would be a supplement to pkok now, not in replacement to it.
So you'd have to accept people with your pkok alts, same as you
Thursday, April 10 2003, 11:44AM
Ok my where do I start such an intersting topic.
1) PKE will cause pk clans to die.
Absolutely true, how many of us have more than one pk alt in
a clan? probably more that a few, this will reduce the number
of characters to divide among the clans, thus less pk clans.
I doubt the number of returning 'old style' pkers will
2) Whining was constant in 'old style' pk.
I don't know I never was the target of either end of 'whining' so
I really can't say. Given the level of disgust some imms have
with pk in any form I can imagine that it was a problem.
I do belive in this regards pkok is a superiour system, heaven
forbid that you have to treat your opponents with any level of respect
so that you can actually fight. I guess its much easy to play
the 'jerk' as so many 'old style' pkers seemed to do.
3) Why not go Accept All?
Yes why not? I've had atleast one AA alt pretty much at all times
since pkok came into existnce and gee guess what, most of the
pkok complainers seem to lack the guts to go AA, wonder where the
problem is here?
4) Pkok with PKE is good.
I dont have any problem with it. If it amkes both sides happier and works
great I'm all for it. Lets hope those who play PKE actually have
the consideration to treat their opponents with a bit of
the consideration to treat their opponents with a bit of respect due
to them. Time will tell here I imagine.
I'n my opinion the biggest problem I saw with 'old style' pk was the
way people treated each other. All you see is the same people
fighting the same people over and over again, heavan forbid that you
fight someone you know or someone you are friends with. It
get real dull if you as Player X get jumped and killed everytime you
are on by player Y, such fun is it not? All to often I saw in
old style' pk the "i dont like Z so I'm gonna kill them over an over
mentality. Guess it sure sucks that under pkok that person could
reject you and your childishness. If dont like the other player
thats fine but atleast treat them with some respect.
Ah yes and lastly Sana whats you problem with RPers? Is it
that odd that others enjoy different aspects of this Mud that you do?
But I guess if you use pk as ego reinforcement or for some other
reason you wouldn't understand.
Secondly what does the fact that Ahania is a Knight ahev to do with
anythng? It doesn't make her posts any less valid, but then
I guess you see the term 'knight' and automaticly think 'idiot'
or 'victim' and rather try and understand the true point.
current Infernal, and once upon a time a Knight
Thursday, April 10 2003, 12:12PM
bring in the old, keep the new, enough said
Thursday, April 10 2003, 03:57PM
Well said Groo. And yes I an a knight, and it has nothing to do with it:)
Thursday, April 10 2003, 04:46PM
I apologize in advance for the length of this post.
Attention! Attention! Rumors of my Knight of Legend-ness have been greatly
exaggerated. I am not, nor have I ever been, a Knight of Legend. I am a Knight
Templar. Now then, that being said:
1 - I would first like to respond to some of the things Sana
ever-so-eloquently said. To start with, let's just get the whole sickening
segregation thing out of the way. Why does anyone have to be JUST an RPer
or JUST a PKer? They don't. Surprisingly enough, there are quite a few of
us out here who enjoy rushing up behind people we don't know beyond the
asterisk next to their name and placing sharp objects in their back, RPing
with anyone who is willing to do so, AND prancing across MUD-dom slaying and
exploring for fun and profit. PKers are the best explorers? Have you lost
your mind? People who enjoy the game in its entirety are the best explorers.
Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking PKers, as I said, I've done my
fair share of it. However, I think this strange fence between PK and RP
simply has to go. What we should strive for is not a world great for one or
the other, but a world great for both of them.
2 - Something needs to be done, just as something needed to be done about the
old PK system. Most of the folks whining about "the good old days" have no
idea what they're talking about because they didn't play in "the good old
days." If you don't know how to use a clan token or password and you lament
for said days, you're in need of a hearty beating about the head and shoulders.
However, the current system IS in need of change. Abuse under PKOK is just as
prevelant as it was under the old clan system (and let's stop calling it old,
eh? It makes me feel like a geriatric.) Besides that, it is my opinion that
PK clans should be just that. PK. Of course, in a perfect world I would like
all clans to be composed of mature folk who enjoy the game in all of its
aspects and respect (not necessarily like, but respect) other players...but
I digress. If you prefer RP to PK but still enjoy PKing every now and again,
PKOK is the obvious choice. If you prefer to PK and then quickly hide
somewhere until you can reject all, then please pack your things and head
to loser-land. There's TONs of folks guilty of that. I'm not sure why Ahania
is getting knocked for being a Knight. I've seen at least three non-Knight
PK clans that do nothing but sit around and twiddle their thumbs.
3 - Grendels and Mercs didn't whine? Come on. If you don't know better than
that then you're in the same boat as the lamenting folk who know nothing
about tokens and passwords. The problem isn't people whining. The problem
is people not respecting other players.
4 - I'm not sure if PKE hand-in-hand with PKOK is the answer. I am sure that
its going to
From: change things. However, until folks understand
that what made the good old old old days so special was mutual respect, a
bit (hint, modicum) of maturity, and a common love for the game then it won't
matter what system is put in.
- Trinity, the Knight Templar who was willing to RP a witch post title,
explores on a regular basis, PKs, and enjoys the game as a whole (oh,
and "distributes the churchs justice")
Friday, April 11 2003, 01:57AM
Some interesting points everywhere. Not sure what I could possibly add
but I would like to think I'm in the old pkiller category, if not
with this character. :) Anyway, yes, the 'old days' had its ups and
downs, but in the 7 years I've been here it's never been THIS down
for this long. But I agree with Trinity. I really don't know that
this will fix anything. More then likely it will just cause more
unseen problems. BUT, having said that, I still think it should be
imp'd if for no other reason then at least we're TRYING to fix it.
It's a very, very hard problem to solve and why not throw a few ideas
around and test em out, ya never know.
My biggest point would be exactly what Trinity said. PK will NEVER
be the way it was 5 years ago. The problem is maturity and age. When
I started here at 14 I was more immature and stupid then I am now if you
can imagine, but I was surrounded by the exact opposite. Now adays
there are no guides, no teachers, noone to guide people in how to play
the game to the maximum effect. Unfortunately, there are no code
changes that can fix this. I don't know if it can ever be fixed. But
until people do respect each other and don't just think of them as a
mob with a special name, maybe things will change.
mob with a special name, nothing will change.
And before you say it, yes, often times I lose my temper and don't
exactly follow these rules to the tee, and yes, I'm guilty of being an
ass on more then one occasion. But I try to be nice whenever I can. I
help newbies, I reequip people I've never seen, I go on runs when
someone needs a specific item, even though I hate runs and may have
better things to do with my time. The thing is, we need to think of
this as more of a community and less as an arena before pk will work
again. While I've certainly killed for little or no reason before, by
far the most fun pk is when you have a reason, a TRUE reason that
not only justifies their death but makes your victory that much more
If any of you think I RP, you're crazy, but it DOES help pk. When I
say rp, I don't mean Tancred RP. I'm not talking about pretending
someone is having a baby and actually recreating the birthing process
over 10 RL hours with an imm playing the doctor. What I'm talking
about is the Knights defending their honor and killing Infernals
WITHOUT talking trash before or after, I'm talking the Infernals
pretending they are invincible and laughing when they die, mocking
their killers for their pointless crusades. A little pretend never
hurt anyone, and for some reason I can't explain, it seems to make
pk a whole lot more fun.
- Craven, who just rambled for 15 minutes and didn't say a damn thing.
Friday, April 11 2003, 02:39AM
ooooh clan tokens!!! I'd start playing again if they brought that back
if for nothing else to yell at players who killed the password mob :P
Friday, April 11 2003, 08:58PM
Actually from my experience being respectful or being nice or being
anything won't get you accepted by certain people.
Tuesday, April 15 2003, 07:29PM
So here I am trying to figure out what to say on this subject
Am I one of those hardcore pkillers? I like to think so
Do I Rp? Sometimes I like to think so, but I know
deep down that I don't rp much if at all.
Many of you know me. Hell I'm sure many of you hate me
I have killed and been killed many times by alot of you
Do I whine? Sometimes yes. Look I was even a Merc and I whined
So no that you have an idea of my play style let me say this...
PKOK is good. I love it. I love being able to pk with any char
type I feel like playing at the moment
BUT PKOK is bad also. Why?
Morphine FireStarter Huma Valis Landy Arsene Castor
Gaidal Asmodean Nothing Dune Agni to name a few
Why did I name these names? Because they are the namesake
of the mud. They are Legends to LegendMUD.
What does this have to do with pkok? Everything
Who can name a Legend that emerged in pkok?
Pk is nothing without Legendary people hunting you down.
While it may be fun to fight someone such as Dolor
it doesn't hold a candle compared to fighting a legend
Personaly my heart hasn't raced in my chest since these
people where phased out. And lets face it they where.
I don't know if I made my point clear or not
all I know is I eagerly await the possiblity of PKE
P.S. And yes I do look forward to multi/looting under PKE
Why because sometimes it's needed to start a good war
and everyone knows war is where the fun is