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Exploring skill options|U6

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Posted by Reynard on 05/22

In the discussion about the recent skill changes, the imms have suggested that we should create new characters to explore our new options. A few players have expressed frustration with this suggestion. Would it be possible for Legend to run something like a mini-testmud, where players could log into stock characters to experiment with the available skills? A testmud with a small area with a few mobs that automatically repop, no pkilling. Perhaps limit the number of characters concurrently logged in, or the duration of the connection in order to minimize the impact on the real mud? And as an aside, I find it strange that we can't unlearn augment because it requires such a commitment, yet we can unlearn any and all first and second circle words. It seems to me that so many words requires a much greater commitment than herblore>poultice>augment. |U6

From: Sandra Wednesday, May 14 2003, 09:57AM Just a small note, we did put in the 5 fight skills on april fools day for everyone to test out prior to installing them into the game for real. Will we do things like this all the time? Dunno. As for the augment/2c words thing, 2c words are considered half-hearted mage requirements. Whereas 3c words are 'full' mages and require a high commitment. Thus, augment is considered a 'full' druid and requires a higher commitment than poultice. -Sandra |U6

From: Masha Wednesday, May 14 2003, 11:46AM I have to agree with some of the appends I've been seeing on the boards about the new skills, requirements, and whatnot that the Imms have put in. Unfortunately, there's a caveat to all these changes: some of the Imms don't seem to understand why some people are a bit irked about the changes. (Not going to point fingers on this one, really.) People were told -- by the Imms -- that there were not going to be any new skills added until skilltrees were completed. More to the point, it was not said "We're not sure what's going to happen in the future, but for now, this is our policy." No, it was said, "No, we will not be adding anything until skilltrees." And, as a result, people thought that with the current system, they might as well use their practices. There was no reason not to, so people went off and learned things like skin, fishing, cooking, etc. Now suddenly, new skills and not a lot of warning to go with them. We, as players of Legend, had about a month's worth of warning. Of course, for the people who can make level 50 characters in a week --and they exist-- this is not an issue to make a new character. Others, unfortunately, who take anywhere from six months to a year to make a level 50 character, this could be rather frustrating as well as irritating. I personally don't have too many problems with the new skills, I just have issues with the fact that the Imms don't seem to understand the fact that some of these people are upset. They just seem to blow it off as if it's unimportant. --Masha Corlan |U6

From: Taziel Wednesday, May 14 2003, 11:28PM Well said, Masha. =) |U6

From: Sandra Thursday, May 15 2003, 05:08AM People were told, when skilltrees were still being worked on, that all coding energy was being placed on trying to get them in. When that work stopped, people were told so. Then came the constant questions about balance. 'strength fighters suck', 'my fighter sucks!' 'Do something about fighters!'. We tried tweaking the fight system. Didn't work. We tried weakening other types. Didn't work. So, this year, we discussed adding in new things for fighters to help them come up to par. We had hoped that the 5 new fight skills would go in for the mud's birthday as a nice surprise. Due to testing and such, that didn't happen. So, we told everyone they were coming, put them in for april 1st so that everyone could try them out, and tweaked them some more based on comments from that day. Then they 'went live'. People WERE told that we weren't sure what was going to happen prior to these going in. The only thing we knew for sure was that skilltrees were on hold. We offer skill reimbursements for some skills so that people can choose to get the new skills. Sure, it's not every skill we're offering to reimburse, and that most likely won't ever happen until the currently-on-hold skilltrees are complete. Do I understand that some people are upset by not being able to get the skills? Sure I do. But I have to ask myself this questions: Would I rather a few people be upset because their character can't learn a new skill or two, or would it be better to try and balance out the fighter class as a whole? While I'm sorry that some people went skills-happy and learned everything on their allskills list just because they had extra practices, I'd rather try to balance out the class as a whole. So if that makes it seem like I, or other imms, are blowing off the complaint that people don't have enough practices, I would have to say so be it. Amusingly though, with the years of complaints about fighters, we've finally worked to get them up to par, yet have yet to hear much more than 'I want more practices!'. -Sandra |U6

From: Dolor Thursday, May 15 2003, 07:18PM Funny. I remember specifically stating in my particular append (on another post about the topic) that I was absolutely happy there were new skills going in. That I know of, NOBODY is complaining that there are new skills. But I still have yet to see an imm address the point @& are new skills. But I still have yet to see anybody address these points- 1) That is was stated several times in the past by imms that the implementation of any new skills would not occur until after skilltrees. 2) That at the time skilltrees was implemented, a skillwipe would occur. 3) Taking these two statements together, the implementation of any new skills would not occur until a skillwipe occured. Any number of players followed this particular logic tree, and several have built their characters based on that third statement. When it was decided that skilltrees was on hold, I don't recall anybody bothering to state "And by the way, since we may never finish skilltrees, we may be putting new skills in now." In other words, although skilltrees were put on hold, nobody bothered to tell the playerbase that the logical assump- tion derived from two bona fide statements by the imm staff was no longer correct. I don't think this should be "fixed" at all. The fact is that adding skills is a good change overall, and anything done to try to "balance" older characters who have burned all their practices will do more harm than good. We have enough practices as it is (I, for one, still have 13 of them puttering around back here) and there's no justification for a skillwipe over a whopping eight new skills. But I have yet to see anybody in authority accept the fact that those characters who should benefit from this change but cannot because of statements imms have made in the past are going to be just a tad pissed off. And by the way, Sandra, does the phrase "vocal minority" mean anything to you? It just might be that you haven't heard much other than "I want more practices!" because people who are just content with the change don't feel any need to write a post on the discussion board saying "I love the new skills! Nothing to complain about!" It would be a pretty worthless discussion, anyway, and besides, the new skills are nice, but they're not good enough to inspire people to compose poetry in their honor, and if that's what you're expecting, you'll be waiting in the coffee shop a long time. Count your blessings: the biggest complaint you've had (other than "these skills don't do anything", which I noticed was actually addressed and worked on) is this rather trivial thread here. It could be infinitely worse, after all: non-fighter types could be complaining that you've over- balanced, but I have yet to hear that one, and the fighter types haven't been complaining that the skills are worthless lately, so--wonder of wonders--the change is probably about the best you could hope for. If you're going to be mad because not everybody is ecstatic, you're going to be very angry indeed. Dolor, temporary devil's advocate, who points out that he's one of the biggest beneficiaries of the new skills, so he's not biased against them. |U6

From: Sandra Thursday, May 15 2003, 09:24PM Reread my append, Dolor. I did address the points you bring up. Yes, when trees were being worked on, we said no new skills til they were done. Trees were put on hold. We said they were put on hold. We began working on balance. Tweaks to the system didn't work. Some people begged for new skills. It took us a while, but here they are to help with balancing the fighters. As for being mad, nah I'm not mad. It's the norm. |U6

From: LadyAce Friday, May 16 2003, 02:57PM Part of what you guys need to understand is that what we say in Q&A is what is true at the time. At the time we said "no new big stuff 'til trees", we said that because it was the plan at the time, it was what we believed to be true at the time. But we can't predict the future, and we can't promise to never ever change our minds. If the only things we could tell you were things we could promise would be true forever....we would either be frustratingly vague all the time, or unable to say anything. Surely the last thing you want from us are a bunch of people who will never level with you about their thinking, whose slippery politicking keeps them from ever committing to anything...surely the last thing you want is for us to be the sort of people who never change their minds, who never react to experience and feedback, and who hold on to old strategies even when changing conditions have made those strategies far less workable. Q&A is your chance to see how things stand, but it's not a religious experience, and we don't have a pope. Things change, we learn, you tell us things we didn't realize, and we're all wrong now and then. -LA |U6

From: Pop Wednesday, May 21 2003, 09:39PM My point also wasn't complaining about the fact that new skills are in -- I have yet to hear a good argument as to why we can't 'unlearn' worthless skills which we learned because there was nothign else to do with the practices for the last many years. Explain why the mud and morale and the game would be compromised by letting people unlearn skills which there is no benefit from having -- like 'listen' and others. Why cannot I trade them in for a practice -- there should be different levels of skills -- I don't see how giving a character a chance to rectify past mistakes by unlearning skills makes the game worse -- it makes no sense at all. I don't have the time to make new characters and besides -- I like this character I would really just like to trade in some worthless skills -- instead you all offer the chance to trade in the skills I have which I actually use. -Pop |U6

From: LadyAce Thursday, May 22 2003, 05:41PM I think that the gap between what you're talking about, Pop, and what we're talking about, is that we look at it from the opposite way. Skill reimbursals are a matter of "what particular skills have been effected by the change?" If the reqs change, or pre-reqs, or something changes drastically in terms of purpose (eloquence is an example here), the particular effected skills are what we change. So while I understand the perspective that you were just playing around with useless skills, we haven't done anything that changed those skills. Ascribing this to trees just ends up being a red herring. New stuff has come in, off and on, in a rush or in a trickle, even as the plan with implementing trees changed over time. -LA |U6


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