place holder for discussion from news board. flame away
but watch the rules about language and everything.
Saturday, August 16 2003, 04:46PM
I'd have to say that you are right, I am not visible much.
that is directly related to requests from players for me to
NOT be visible and afk. Unfortunately most of my online time
is from work so the time I have to handle things is limited
to small portions throughout the day. As head admin a portion
of my job is to oversee the administration which isn't at all
necessary to be visible for. I will be the first to admit that
I don't spend enough time visible. I also don't think that
I have ever not gotten back to someone who has mudmailed/emailed
me for assistance, even if it has taken a few days. Yes it
also sometimes takes me weeks to do some updates to the
players picture pages. That just takes me a few minutes here and there.
As for not doing fun things. Well I do run games and if you haven't
been around for one of those, I'm sorry. Can't be here
and running games all the time, nor do I want to.
I thinhk that a large portion of people who see me as being rude
or mean or whatever have very little knowledge of how things
go when I have to deal with an administrative infraction.
If being very blunt and straight forward offends you, then i suggest a LOT of time
of time reading the rules and making sure that you
understand them so that we never have occasion to
discuss them after a warning is issued. It may be stating
the obvious but I have no patience for people who don't play the game
in a manner that does not break the rules.
Sunday, August 17 2003, 12:13PM
Still, handling a situation by "bluntly" telling someone to
"shut up" doesn't look very good on you. Especially since
you are supposed to be an authority figure. There are a
lot more mature and professional ways to handle a situation,
and professionally handled situations would prevent lots of
flaming notes and appends in your general direction. In
my opinion being head admin is your privelage, not your
right, and I'm sure there are 100 other players who would
gladly take a shot at head admin. Stop making it sound
like such a chore. I've been here for at least 8 years
and would love to be an IMM, as it is a great privelage,
but alas, I'd never be considered. If ya don't like your
job and the response it gets you, step down. Thats my
|1The preceeding was paid for by the Sarevok for Head
Admin campaign, located in magical Archive Land.
Sunday, August 17 2003, 04:37PM
Choc, I can't say you are good or bad as I've never met you
and judging a book by it's cover is always wrong. I thank you
for your politeness in directing this discussion over to this board
I also thank you for your honesty upon this matter. I am sorry
that I have never been present for one of your games, but what kind
of game do you usually run if you don't mind me asking?
I would be interested in partaking in such a game.
Thank you for your honesty, and bluntness on this matter.
Romanti C Utopea, Visionary.
Sunday, August 17 2003, 05:33PM
Well, for one, Chocorua always has proved a valuable source of
ideas and constructive criticism for the elf game writing!
Monday, August 18 2003, 12:50AM
okay, it seems everyone missed the point of the original post
(or the one that i thought it meant at least anyway). I do not
believe it was a flame post, more of a, 'hey i was talking on
this channel, but didnt switch channels when asked, and got warned
is that something i can be warned for?' or something. So if the
answer is yes, then we could have just got rid of ALL this spam.
But in relation to the imm topic. I don't think it's just Chocorua
that needs to be vis more
From: poke 99% of the imm team
From: hardly ever
see any of you... and occasionally I'll see LadyAce. But that's about
it. Maybe it's my punishment for not living in 'the great all powerful USA'
Anyway, thats about all i wanna write atm.
(still has no pants) :P
Monday, August 18 2003, 01:04AM
Choc, honestly, I think the problem lies with you. You choose to
be extremely hardline about rules sometimes, your manner is curt
at best, rude more often, and you get all bent out of shape when
people mention it. Well,
From: if you are going to choose to
interact with the players like that, then they are going to complain.
So if you are OK with all the complaining, then don't change. If
you'd like a better relationship with more players, consider
adjusting how you treat us.
Monday, August 18 2003, 03:34AM
I didnt mean to start a big rally on the "lets hate choc" wagon..
Alls I wanted to state was.. I am offended to have been punished over
something that,when looked at by other assuming imms, was obscure at best.
As a player who has been around and around with imms over punishments and
is known to have gone to the better path, it just offends me that even
with the showing of my turn around any minor thing, and assuming by imms,
warrants a punishment to me. I say assuming because my comment that got
me punished was taken in a way it wasnt said. It was assumed that I
was taking a shot at a person, when I was just saying that and ill qoute..
"some ppl need to learn.." by mistakes they make. It upsets me that
the first thing that comes to mind, because of my history, is that im
being some annoying little kid shootin off at the mouth and being an
overall child in the matter.
I have the upmost respect for all immortals, for I know myself how
it is to be in your shoes. And knowing that, the only way things can
be done and be done with respect from the pbase is maturely and well
thought out. It just urks me to see someone so willing and seemingly
waiting to throw out any punishment over anything.. be it a rule or
what I still feel in this case, an assumption..bending a rule to fit.
Then afterward, being arrogant and not willing to listen or even
explain exactly what had broken the rules.. doesn't seem very immortal
like. No you don't have to be friends of the pbase.. and you dont
have to be liked.. but you could atleast be civil, which sounds in the
"shut up" channel.. that you lack a little in that department.
Again, I'm not saying you are a terrible imm or anything else you may
assume from the above... I just feel as a admin, head admin, the one
in that position needs some people/social skills that arent so
confrantational..? cant spell =p
Sandman et all
Monday, August 18 2003, 07:52AM
a couple points ...
1) people seem to have the misconception that I don't
like or don't want to do the head admin position. that is
just wrong. There are aspects about the position that I find
leave a bad taste in my mouth. Most of those involve dealing
with individuals who find it easier to break the rules than live
by them. I knwo that is aprt of my responsibilities, but I don't
have to enjoy it. If i did enjoy it then people would complain
more about me, believe me.
2) there seems to be some sort of strange assumption by
a few people that people who break rules are doing it just out
of not knowing the rules. This does happen but 90% of the
warnings I hand out or defend are against people who do
in fact know better and are just upset that they got caught
or that they don't agree with the rule.
There are a few other things I would dispute but I can't.
I do get confrontational (though usually it takes something
to provoke me into that) and I am very blunt about my
perception of the rules here on LegendMud. I am taking a
hard line on enforcement of legend's rules. Consistency is
the only way to create an atmosphere where people know
what they can and can't do. Up until recently the entire
immortal staff hasn't been all that consistent when it comes to
enforcing the rules. Most of us thought it would be
better to discuss problems with players and not hand out the
warnings if the person sounded sincere. Well it's a text
based game and humans are notorious for being dishonest. A
mud is the perfect place to lie and get away with it. By
handing out the warnings and being very strict with every
infraction that comes along I can more or less say that
everyone is getting the same treatment based on their
history as a player on legendmud.
As for people who are offended that they have gained a relutation
as being a "bad apple" and are treated like it... What can I say?
It happens and that is all we have to go on to make a judgement
call on how you are going to act in the future. If it offends you
so much to be judged by your past then you need to work VERY hard
to avoid the same mistakes. That is tue for me too .. yes telling
someong on chat to "shut up" isn't professional, but it is a tool
I have to redirect a convesation that I am trying to redirect to
a channel. Often the only way to get someone's attention is to
take the more simple method of treating them like a child. I'd
rather not have to do that, but I will do whatever I have to to
make the playerbase on legendmud understand that we have rules
and we need to follow them even if we don't like them.
Now I will apologise to everyone who has ever felt offended at
something I have said or done. I am truely sorry that all of you
get offended by me. It is not (though that seems to be the
common interpretation) my goal to offend, but only to enforce
the rules of legendmud with the most consistency that I can.
Monday, August 18 2003, 08:51AM
Here is my beef with it all, choc has repeatadly said things like
"well if the players follow the rules we could have no interaction
for them to get upset about" and things like "I do get confratational
sometimes (though usually only when provoked by another)"
Sure, players break the rules, players have lied, players are all
out to break the rules and lie about it.. Keeping the rules
the same for anyone is the best way to go about it, that is
not an issue for me and it should not be an issue for others as
well since we log on to the mud knowing full well that there are
rules being enforced by the immortal staff that we are expected
to follow. You can say you are doing your job and that this is the way
it is going to be handled, but how often do people have to say to
you that they do not like your attitude when doing your job? You
place all the blaim on this apparent problem on the rule breakers
or the people you get into a confratation with, but you fail to
take any responsibility for your own actions besides that very
half hearted apoligy I read on this string to those you have
offended in the past. Including an apology on a post after saying
that you feel its everyone elses fault but your own does not
come off well in my eyes.
Fine, you are right, if players did not break the rules then
there would not be a confratation, but on the same note, if you
did not have such an attitude when dealing with people all the
time, then perhaps the attacks by the players when you address
them in such a way would not be so terrible either. The fact
that you seem to think you are the saint in the situation makes
me think that you are part of the problem. Perhaps both
parties should take a hard look at themselves, not just the
playerbase here at legend choc.
I can say that ive never been perfect when it comes to the rules
but im hardly a rule breaker or have a history of such, In
saying that I know I would not appreciate being treated like
some idoit child who is beneath you because they made a mistake.
But of course, let the excuses role out for why things are as
they are. Im sure thats working for you.
Cheap, a person just like everyone else, with feelings that can be hurt.
Believe it or not.
Monday, August 18 2003, 10:07AM
It's never been my intent to pain a picture with myself as
a saint. I have enen at times said that the way i react to
some situations is less than perfect. more often than not
my reactions to players is very blunt. I can see your point
that there is blame on both sides. I am not going to change
the way that I handle situations in an attempt to try to
draw teh best out of bad players. I know that is going to be
taken in the light that "Choc isn't willing to even try
to be nice." It's not my job to be nice and make sure that
everyone is having a great day. If you are in a position
to be into an argument with me then soemthing went wrong before
that moment. Usually there are several things that went
wrong before that moment. I don't go aggressive on people
the moment a rule is broken. Believe it or not more often than
not I take a great deal of abuse before becoming confrontational.
I know that most people on legend won't agree with me on this but
it is a waste of my time and theirs to spend hours in debate
over the technicalities of what just happened. The best plan
more often than not is to take the warning/punishment and
then come back later when you are less anoyed at being caught
and discuss it with me. You will find that when I am not
in the middle of being called named and told that I just don't
care about legend and that I am a power hungry jerk, that
I more or less deal with people in a very calm and
I'll take some blame for the way people see me as being
offensive but I won't take it all. I also think that if
people are looking for a way to avoid those situations they avoid
them int eh first place by following the rules that are
very well written, comapred to a number of muds I have played.
Tuesday, August 26 2003, 05:07AM
Well hello my darlings. What a debate -- I can't resist.
I have to say as a suggestion to you all -
Discretion is the better part of valour, my friends...
There is a lot of mud-slinging on this particular subject,
in fact some of us are tuning in as a substitute for
our soap opera. It's gotten ridiculous to the point of
sheer stupidity -- on both sides.
I wonder, if there are this many people who believe Choc
is unfit to be an imm -- is there a way to vote him out?
I have no personal problem with Choc -- which is actually
strange if you think about it, because I have a bit
of a reputation as a troublemaker here
From: point drunk MUDing
I have three warnings -- and none of those are from Choc.
Nor have I ever gotten a warning from him. Why?
I suspect it's because he's rarely here, I have no doubt
that some of my behaviour would be tolerated by him.
The last time I was playing here often for any
period of time, I think I saw Choc on vis was perhaps
once a month. Shouldn't the head admin be more accessible
to the pbase?
Again, I have no personal problem with Choc. Actually,
in all my brief dealings with him, he's been quite
decent and occasionally helpful.
Anyhoo, that's my two cents, have at it...
"Remember -- DISCRETION!" quoth the vandal
Wednesday, August 27 2003, 02:09PM
well to answer one question .. is there a way to get me
voted out? umm .. since the players don't choose the
immortal staff (and won't ever) there isn't any formal
way to be voting any imm in or out. If you can ocnvince
kaige either directly or through other imms that I
am unable to handle the position then perhaps you can
achieve that goal.
As to my time visible, again, I used to spend all of my time
here visible if i was afk or not because a large portion
of the time i cna devote to legend is while I am at work,
I was told repeatedly by a number of people that my presence
visible while afk wasn't desireable and that i was "wasting
their time." So now I am invis unless I have to go visible
to deal with something or I cna devote more than a few continous
minutes to this screen. Believe it or not I AM here a lot
more than you might think. As for being available to
players the only suggestion I can make is "TRY" to get
in touch with me. Mudmail... Email.... Pray if it's an
emergency .... these things all can work. And well if
you aren't willing to try those things if I am not
visible then whatever it is that you need might not really
be necessary for the Head Admin...
Anyhow I agree this posting did get a bit strange and
much like a soap opera. But I don't actually mind people
telling me how they feel. What annoys me is that in all
of it noone was willing to take a look at it from my point
of view. I uderstand that people find me blunt and at times rude
though I am never purposefully rude to people about things
unless they have drawn me into some sorta argument. I won't
be changing the bluntness though, I find that if I say
what i mean it leads to far fewer misconceptions, aside
from the fact that people take it as being rude.
Monday, September 01 2003, 04:41PM
I've figured I'd drop by and give my opinion on this
although I haven't been playing here in a long time.
Most of you probably don't even know/remember me.
I'm a player from eons ago.
Anyways, I think lots of you are being hard with the flaming.
I've had the chance to be an admin imm on another mud and yes
it is hard... and does feel like unwanted work at time...
like an extra load that appears at no where.
Why did I take the position then? (you say)
Well it's has its ups and its down. Like any other positions.
Being an Admin imm, you need to be tough and sometimes rough.
Sure we do not need to be super un-social or have too many behaviors
like that... but it's quite unpleasant when people start bashing us
just because we're reinforcing the rules and have them followed as
best as possible.
It _is_ our jobs to do that as Admin immortals.
Like it or not.
Chocorua is a good guy. I know it. I've played with him for a long
time when I was here.
He's good at being an imm and you guys need to try to understand it's
not always easy to make the harsh decisions that need to be done.
Anyways that's all I had to say...
Chocorua, take care my friend.
CLeo of the |13Circle of Angels
Wednesday, September 03 2003, 02:49PM
I think that Chocorua taking the time to respond
to the monotony of this post is really amazing
more than anything. It's not until we visit a true
'horror world' that we realize that our lives
here aren't all that bad. Kinda like real life
if you steal and get caught, you will go to jail.
I understand Choc's argument, and definitely see
his points and arguments. It is his choice as to how
he acts. Chocorua has been appointed our Head Admin
by our immortal department. I have trust in the fact
that our core immoretal staff would not put someone
who is a 'loose cannon' into that kind of a position
of power. Although it would be great to be able
to get to know him as CLeo knew him. I think one
can change another's perspective with kind words
and a warm smile. But, as always, everything
must be mirrored. Perhaps we should instate
a trial by jury here at legendmud. If said player
feels the need to deate his case he sets a 'court date'
and he can be convicted, or not convicted, by the people.
said person would state his case, and the warning immortal
would state their case and reasons. Players could be picked
at random for 'jury' duty and a unanimous vote will rule.
Logs would become valuable as evidence and would be shared
with jury members. Again, this would only occur when said
player wanted to challenge their punishment.
I think it would be harder for a player to act like a jerk
in front of a group of players and immortals who would
ultimately be judging his fate. Like warnings, a trial
would be recorded for one full year inside the warning screen
If an offending player re-offends while a trial marker is
still activated on their character, trial is foregone and
they receieve imediate punishment, as seen fit by the
immortal staff. trial offenders whether guilty or not guilty
should be posted and shown to the general mud public.
I think making people more accountable for their actions
will see a decrease in offenders.
that's my two cents