Discussion Archives Index


Current Index

Posted by Dolly on 08/31

Normally, I like and appreciate the way the mud has been handled from an administrative standpoint. Today, I feel differently. Yes, I do understand that all players are expected to read and understand the rules. Yes, I do understand that warnings are not the end to life as we know it. But today, I saw a new player to the mud warned, and with the warning, bothered enough to leave the mud, for a minor offense. The newbie in question revealed the location of a spell word in a request for information. My feeling on this is one of annoyance at this particular matter. I honestly feel that adminstration was much more effective when someone was reminded of the rule for a first offense - not immediately stuck with an official warning. Only when someone has shown a trend of disregard for the rules should they really be punished - a newbie who makes a simple mistake once could still be a contributing member to the MUD society, but, instead, we are short a member of the community. |U6

From: Chocorua Friday, August 29 2003, 10:00AM had said newbie stuck around long enough to discuss it with the immortals online at the time perhaps they wouldn't have left. But having logged into legend and agreed to play by the rules they are subject to the same standards that the rest of you are. consistency is very important and will be maintained at every point possible. possible. I'm sorry if soemone felt the need to leave over a verbal warning for a blatant rule violation. Chocorua |U6

From: Kae Friday, August 29 2003, 10:05AM Verbal warnings are given to document that a person has been made aware of the rules, -- why? because some people will pretend ignorance indefinitely. That said, the person in question was not a newbie and should know better. |U6

From: Demandred Friday, August 29 2003, 11:19AM Shrug, cops give verbal warnings for minor offenses like speeding, and since Shrug, cops give verbal warnings for minor offenses like speeding, and since the Administration is basically a police force, I don't see why they think they are somehow better than cops. Oh well, whatever, warn everyone into oblivion for all I care, whatever gets you off. |U6

From: Chocorua Friday, August 29 2003, 11:39AM it always comes down to being accused of taking enjoyment out of giving warnings. I know I will never convince anyone of this but we don't enjoy warning or punishing people. We would all prefer it if we didn't have to. But being consistent is teh first step we are taking in trying to make everyone understand that we aren't playing favorites or that teh rules are only enforced by some people. A verbal warning carries no punishment other than what you inflict on yourself for your own sake of feeling stepped on by authority. Though a pattern of minor/verbal warnings will force us to look closer at the whole history of a player rather than just what is the current infraction. That is why the warning system has to stay in place teh way it is and every infraction needs to be assigned a warning .. verbal or more serious. Chocorua |U6

From: Nelson Friday, August 29 2003, 01:43PM I like consistancy a lot. And I can totally picture some newbie flipping out and running off after being warned. But were you visible had he chosen to try to talk it out? Or was this a hit and run warning.. I remember I used to get warped into Satsu's office whenever I did something something bad...or he would warp into me and talk about it. Now half the time I don't even know if i'm being punished by an admin or some builder or what....(and yes I realize it says thier name when you get a warning, don't be so picky!) |U6

From: Chocorua Friday, August 29 2003, 03:18PM I didn't issue the warning, I got back to the keyboard about 5 minutes later. I think the person who did had been visible at the time time though. Hard to say. They were discussing it on chat as well. So thee person wasn't person wasn't hit and run. Chocorua |U6

From: Dolly Friday, August 29 2003, 04:21PM I don't think warnings are that bad, myself. I do understand the need of consistent rules. And I don't think that you all take joy in the issuance of warnings. But I do feel that perhaps before the warning is issued would be the ideal time to discuss the matter with the affected party. A warning may take them by surprise, and, until you have a firm understanding of what exactly it means, it could scare someone off. I understand why rules are in place and the neccesity of their enforcement. But it is equally important to understand that you are dealing with people, not mobs or nameless 'cases'. People are going to react perhaps in an unusual way, which is why I feel it would be very nice to discuss with the person and THEN give them a verbal warning. I've had characters issued verbal warnings for various offenses by imms who were invis and had absolutely no intention of talking about it. I reacted differently than the person in question, but I could see why someone would react as they did. |U6

From: Cheyla Friday, August 29 2003, 07:11PM I was online at the time this happened, and the immortal that issued the warning WAS visible, IS in the admin department, and WAS speaking with the player from what I could tell. I was away from the keyboard at the moment it happened but got back in time to see the warning occur and was around briefly for the subsequent chats and sudden decision to go linkdead instead of sticking around to have the chat with the immortal that happened to be visible. If the warning hadn't been issued already, I would have issued it myself. I wasn't visible and since I was leaving for work pretty much right then, no, they wouldn't have been able to talk to me. That's the way life goes sometimes, we don't always HAVE the ability to sit and chat and hash out exactly what they did wrong, why, and how they can make sure they don't do it again in the future, a process that with some people, can take upwards of an hour. So forgive us if real life or more pressing LegendMUD business calls (I wouldn't sit and chat with you about a language warning if I was already dealing with a harrassment issue, but I would still warn you for it) and we make the decision to just issue the warning. We are trying to be consistent across the board, fair across the board, and in general more concise with the rules. We are trying not to give anyone a foundation for claims of favoritism or inconsistency. If you receive a warning and need to discuss it, disagree with it, or need clarification, you won't necessarily get immediate attention. But you can always drop a mudmail to the immortal that warned you and/or Chocorua and/or Kaige regarding it and if you don't want a written reply, you can ask to schedule a meeting to go over it. As for cops issuing verbal warnings for speeding... How many people that have gotten "just a warning" have missed out on the ticket more than just the once? I've got a coworker who should get a speeding ticket a week, but his luck holds firm and the cops keep on being nice. He certainly hasn't learned his lesson, the cops have no idea he's a chronic offender since they don't track verbals, and I fear for his victims the day he gets into an accident because he was speeding. Just think if those verbal warnings were actually tracked - maybe that second time around he'd actually get a ticket like he should have instead of getting lucky and getting off with just being inconvenienced for a few minutes. We used to just issue verbal warnings without documenting them. That practice bit us in the ass pretty bad on more than one occasion, got us accused of favoritism and inconsistency, and gave the comminuty a few bad apples that got left out to rot instead of being put in the frdge for a while. Anyhow, enough rambling here... Cheyla |U6

From: Gripe Saturday, August 30 2003, 04:01AM Ok.. let's see if I can make sense of this from all these posts. Said newbie was warned, and since you say it was done by a vis immie I shall assume it was Bart. It would seem that the newbie WAS discussing the warning and accidently chatted some of this on chat. For which they promptly apologised. An Invis Immie then jumped on chat and was.. shall we say a little bit rude. From her post, we can assume this was Cheyla. I would suggest that it was not so much the warning, which I see as deserved (assuming it was a verbal), that scared them off.. rather some invisible person jumping down ther throat. Those of us who had dealt with said newbie thought she was rather nice and really was a newbie to the mud! So, way to go chasing away good new players. My 2 cents worth! Gripe. |U6

From: Kae Saturday, August 30 2003, 08:36AM That post of Gripe's is probably the most useless and idiotic waste of bandwidth I've yet to see on this board. |U6

From: Dolly Saturday, August 30 2003, 08:46AM Well, I'm glad the administrative staff isn't all as negative as you are, Kae. I tried to avoid this post being used for personal attacks, which is what too many complaints about administration are, then you have to go and directly jump at someone for posting what they saw. Thank you. |U6

From: Kae Saturday, August 30 2003, 09:11AM Please explain to me where exactly the objectivity is and the personal attacks aren't in playing guessing games as to which immortals were involved. That was nothing but a waste of time and bandwidth which has nothing to do with the issue you raised, Dolly, nor serves any purpose but to start more flame wars. Thank you in return for playing along with it, I suppose. |U6

From: Dolly Saturday, August 30 2003, 09:38AM What other option is there in response to clandestine abuse from invisible imms? The newbie was mistreated by an invisible imm, and we were not able to see who it was. What's the other option? |U6

From: Chocorua Saturday, August 30 2003, 09:46AM you make some assumptions about the situation that I'd like to know more about. 1) how is it you know they were mistreated by an invisible imm? 2) since when is it anyoneelse's business to judge a situation they only know half the story of? I see a lot of angst against the imm staff here for doing the job that i have asked them to do. Warnings are given out for every infraction and I want them given out immediately so they are not forgotten. Any discussion that happens after the warning happens after the warning is given out is carried out by the individual staff member and I can't control what it is. I was on and I saw what this supposed "abuse" abuse by an invis imm was and it was a request to read the rules. Yes people don't like it when invis imms give them instructions but like it or not sometimes those instructions necessary and meant in a helpful helpful manner. It is only the player's deep seated hate for the immortal staff staff or authority in general that puts it into an abusive light. If this supposed newbie (probably was a newbie by the definition of "hasn't made a level 50 char yet") would have not gotten angry and dropped link, perhaps a discussion could have happened. We won't ever know now what might have happened. Chocorua |U6

From: Dolly Saturday, August 30 2003, 09:52AM Another thing to keep in mind - I know you're looking to be consistent in handling rules violations - however, you're dealing with a HUGE variable - human nature. People are going to react very differently to the same punishments. Some people will try to see exactly how many warnings they can get before deletion, some people will try to avoid warnings. Some people can be turned around by a brief discussion. Perhaps the search for consistency is a bad idea because it leaves out the very thing this game is based on - players. You can consistently manage as many artificially intelligent mobs as you want. But without some grasp of basic psychology, or even a little empathy, administration is not going to be succesful in handling people. |U6

From: Dolly Saturday, August 30 2003, 09:56AM I don't have a deep-seated hate for adminitration - I just have a desire to see things amended for the better. Just because I have no warnings on my record, does NOT mean that I'm not bothered when I see things happen. I know about the mistreatment because it happened on a PUBLIC CHANNEL. Everyone on the mud saw it happen. The problem I have with the authority of this mud is that every bit of constructive criticism is taken as a personal attack - that's NOT what I'm doing here. I'm trying to inspire change for the better. When I see an injustice, I want to see it corrected. The administrators police the players, but there needs to be some sort of oversight by the players to ensure that we are fairly treated. |U6

From: Jenna Saturday, August 30 2003, 10:11AM Squeal! As a witchie who has spent a lot of time helping all the little newbies in the world, and devoted an amount of time to this one, I can definitively state that she was a new player. One of the reasons I choose to devote some of my time to newbies is that I can still remember my early days here on Legend. (No really, my brain isn't that foggy yet!) This little one hadn't even ventured out of her hometown yet! I do hope she comes back because she was rather nice! |U6

From: Chocorua Saturday, August 30 2003, 10:09AM how people are punished for their rule breaking is handled very much on a case by case basis. The warning system isn't a punishment unless you personally have a need to take it that way. That is not how it is used or intended. It is a record of that character's past crossings with the rules. It is provided to the player as a tool to allow then to know that they have had documented problems. As for empathy and all that you ask for .. it's there but when someone immediately jumps to the defensive about a situation there is no way to salvage the situation without a lot more time than we always have. Again the whole situation did NOT happen in the public eye on chat. Only the players complaint and a reminder to read the rules. Chocorua |U6

From: Kae Saturday, August 30 2003, 10:18AM The best way to avoid just making the staff really angry and quite unlikely to take your complaints seriously is to stick to valid issues that you know about and preferably even can back up if required or at least have witnessed yourself. I'm talking directly to Gripe on this, because his or her attack on immortals based on mere guesswork was childish and as I said earlier, a waste of bandwidth. It had as much validity as if I was to find a report that a character duplicated an item and concluded that since Dolly was around at the time and the wind is westernly, she did it. To conclude that anyone who comes across as grumpy is Cheyla, or that Bart is the only visible immortal, is about as right and well-founded as to declare Dolly a constant cheater or state that Cyrene was in fact doing all this on purpose to start a flame war. Absurd is the word that describes this best. Here is one thing you can do for certain, Dolly, on this issue and others like it: Acquire a log of the incident in question and demonstrate what exactly you mean by abuse. The log of the incident I have only shows one comment to be made by an invisible immortal: [Chat] (Immortal): read help rules, please It's obvious from your posts that you feel that more than this occurred. I'm positive I'm not the only one who will want to know what you're talking about before agreeing that any abuse occurred. The other option that you ask for is the same old one as players have and have always had: Grab whatever evidence you have, even if it's third party gossip, and go talk to the head admin and/or the implementor about it. The immortal staff is by no means perfect, and this is your most efficient way of having a situation addressed without it turning into a flame war where anyone else with an old issue or nothing better to do can pitch in and muddy the waters for everyone, achieving nothing for anyone. I'm truly disappointed, I'll admit, and that is why I reacted as harshly as I did. Gripe and you, Dolly, are both old players who are familiar with the rules and the way the system works. Neither of you have a bad admin record. Why this sudden need to declare the revolution on behalf of an old player who returned to us (I base this on her own statement the day before that she had come back to Legend after being disappointed with another game for its lack of community feel), made a small mistake, and dropped link without being even willing to discuss the issue with anyone? |U6

From: Wren Saturday, August 30 2003, 10:13AM Um. Long spammy post. Me currently reading a book called "Why We Hate" by Rush W. Dozier. After witnessing what happened to spark off this post, plus all the other stuff that's been going on for the past few weeks on this board, in q&a, all of that, me just sorta found this portion of the book incredibly, if tangentially, relevant. Quoting starts here: Hate has four core elements: obsessive, intense dislike; negative, binary stereotyping and generalization; a lack of empathy for the object of the hatred; and a basic sense of hostility that can trigger aggression - the fight response. Through stereotyping, hate involves prejudice, but prejudice doesn't necessarily involve hate. Some European colinists, for example, felt paternalistic rather than antagonistic toward indigenous peoples. But these kinds of us-them distinctions always have the potential to blossom into hatred. Hate is more complex than instinctive emotions such as fear or surprise. It has no characteristic form of physical expression. The physical manifestation of hate can range from instant, violent rage to cruel laughter and perverse joy. But the underlying theme of all these forms of expression is hostility. A wide variety of emotions and feelings can be the source of hatred: frustration, envy, grief, pain, fear, anger, disgust. Intense dislike in the context of hate means that the primitive neural system has marked a phenomenon as a significant threat to survival and/or reproduction. Studies of human behaviour have identified at least eight major sources of prejudice and hatred: group fitness, identity, competition for scarce resources, control and dominance, powerlessness, fear and pain, status, and social roles. Almost all involve elements of the us-them distinction. The basic us-them dynamic is often describes as group fitness. This is the tendency of members of an in-group (or us-group) to value themselves more highly than they value non-members - a primitive tendency to promote group cohesion, which can be crucial in coping with threats. One's sense of identity can also promote unfavourable contrasts with others. The Nazis defined the Aryan master race by belittling other "races." Sometimes, the sense of identity of longtime adversaries begins to derive solely from their opposition to each other. David Grossman, an Israeli novelist, has argued that this is a major problem in the Middle East conflict: "All of us, Israelis and Palestinians, were born into this conflict. Our identity is formulated, to no small extent, in terms of hostility and fear, survival and death. Sometimes it seems as if Israelis and Palestinians have no clear identities without the conflict, without the 'enemy' whose existence is necessary, perhaps vital, to their senses of self and community." ...Seeking control and dominance is another basic human tendency that often leads to conflict, especially when an in-group seeks to dominate an out-group ("them"). A sense of powerlessness and vulnerability can also lead to prejudice and hate, as the primitive neural system perceives itself as being trapped by a threat. ... Fear and pain are related feelings that tend to push the primitive neural system into overdrive and may create hatred of whoever or hwatever produces these feelings. One's social status can also lead to primitive prejudice and us-them divisions. We tend to positively stereotype those of higher status (celebrities, for example, in Western culture) and negatively stereotype those of lower status. And, finally, social roles can cause us to prejudge others and ourselves with stereotyped expectations. Employer-employee, doctor-patient, husband-wite, and a slew of other social roles come with preconceptions that may or may not fit our individual abilities and needs. ... The problem with social roles often comes when there is a presumed superior-inferior relationship with other people. New quote. The quality of mercy is not strain'd, It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven Upon the place beneath: it is twice blest; It blesseth him that gives and him that takes: 'Tis mightiest in the mightiest: it becomes The throned monarch better than his crown; His sceptre shows the force of temporal power, The attribute to awe and majesty, Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings; But mercy is above this sceptred sway; It is enthroned in the hearts of kings, It is an attribute to God himself; And earthly power doth then show likest God's When mercy seasons justice. End spammy post! |U6

From: PixieNi Saturday, August 30 2003, 11:19AM kae's append no. 10 is soooo hostile, that I don't see how on this very string imms can claim that it is merely consistency and not hostility. kae herself says that dolly and gripe are old players who never had problems with admin (ie respected the rules), so where's all this hostility coming from??? i didn't see what happened with said newlyn, but just seeing this board and kae's append made me sick. admin should make her apologise. |U6

From: Chocorua Saturday, August 30 2003, 12:07PM I agree that Kae's reply was hostile, but her hostility was drawn out from what she saw as a (err an) attack on the immortals. I don't know that it was the best response but that is her choice to make. I certainly won't be forcing anyone to make apologies. That is up to Kae to decide. For teh record I think she was right the views she was responding to were a waste of bandwidth in the current discussion because they were from OLD bad blood between the imm staff and specific players, not how this newlyn was treated. Chocorua |U6

From: Nelson Saturday, August 30 2003, 03:29PM That is exactly the freaking problem! You see everything as an attack against the immortals these days! I can't even count how many times recently i've seen the imms flip out over nothing, on the disc board or at QnA. Obviously this whole stupid admin issue is sensitive to us all (well, to you all. I don't give a turd) but when imms spaz out on somebody who is asking a question at QnA or freak out about some minor suggestion on the disc board thats bad. |U6

From: Magius Saturday, August 30 2003, 03:44PM There is a big thing that everyone is missing here and I'm probably wrong, and I probably have no idea what I'm talking about but what I'm thinking is that Legend isn't a beaurcracy charged with the management of millions of people, it's a tiny little village stuffed into a tiny little area of the internet. We are maybe 200 people from all over the world, and all members of a tiny tiny little community that is extremely unique, rather friendly, and something I am glad to say that maybe in all my years I've contributed positively to it. Yes, by whatever voting process is used, Immortals are the pseudo- government of this place, and the administration wing is the police force, and I do think they do their best to make sure everyone is happy. My main problem is, we are all human beings, and its not like there are SO MANY people, and SO MANY things going on that the immortal staff is SO overwhelmed that they must resort to a system of beaucratic indifference. We are a tiny little place, and I think a little more human to human personal contact is not out of the question, and I dont think it will create a feelings of favoritism anymore then that which already exists. In Conclusion, just try to remember, we are not a bunch of people trying to foil the immortals every plan, and the immortals are not a small cabal of plotters intent on destroying the MUD experience I imagine 95% or more of the people in our village are good human beings intent on nothing more then having a good time, and helping others. I feel the worst part about this whole post has been the anticeptic way that the immortal staff has approached it. A lot of us have been here just as long as most imm's and have just as much emotional investment in this place. Well that rambled way to much, but never the less my desire for the administration arm of the Immortals is to stop treating administration like its a government complex, and realize that this is a tiny little village, most of us have been here for a long time and we're all if not friends, at least acquaintences. In the Administrations quest for fairness and universal accountability, they've lost focus on the people -e and that is the worst crime of all Magius |U6

From: Chocorua Sunday, August 31 2003, 12:15AM I like that it's always the admin staff that can change the way things are handled. I like how it is always the administrative staff that are out of line and don't have any feelings about the way things are handled. You couldn't be further from the truth of how things are done or how we look upon our duties here. The fact that we have to enforce the rules on legend and enforce them consistently (or at much as we can without this being a paying job that we have scheduled coverage for). The ONLY way for the admin staff to keep any face of fairness is to be consistent. Can that be done with compassion? yes it certainly can. Will it always be? unlikely to be 100% the case, mostly because of percieved feelings. An immortal who issues a warning to someone is always seen as the "bad cop" and no matter what we do we have to deal with that. Chances are sooner or later someone will have to issue that warning (because i have told them to, i want every infraction documented, call it what you like) and not have the time to sit down with the player and discuss the finer points of the rules. This is why we have email.. mudmail, tells and of course there is always later... with the possible exception of harassment there is NOTHING that is so important that admin deals with that can't wait to be discussed at a later time when both parties have time. If you want more compassion then start showing some. Try and treat the administrative staff like human beings and understand that by issuing these warnings they are acting in your best interest. Generally when someone crosses a line that they either didn't know existed or weren't in the mood to pay attnetion to, a warning is all it takes to set them straight. Our players, on the whole, are intelligent individuals and if they bother to read the rules will understand them. unfortunately in today's world where noone is willing to wait or to do more than skim documentation it is unlikely that people will read the rules that are posted and there fore they will break them. By issuing the warnings immediately and making sure that documentation is in place for the future everyone is treated fairly. I know that a lot of people think that I enjoy being a sadistic jerk to the player base and that everything I say is dripping with contempt... Those that are so convinced I doubt that I will be able to get through to.. so be it. If I hated you all so much believe me .. it would be a lot easier to NOT be here but to be running my own mud where I made my own rules. Fortunately legend exhists and I don't have to go through all that and Legend's rules are very much fair. I'm proud to be part of the staff that is making sure that we continue in this direction and I am sorry if anyone takes my blunt nature as rude or condescending. Most of you don't know me well enough for me to have the energy to dislike you. That is good. I prefer to be able to meet new people from time to time. Let's just not do it in an administrative fashion. Chocorua |U6


Current Index