Posted by Dolly on 08/31
Normally, I like and appreciate the way the mud has been handled from
an administrative standpoint. Today, I feel differently. Yes, I do
understand that all players are expected to read and understand the
rules. Yes, I do understand that warnings are not the end to life as
we know it. But today, I saw a new player to the mud warned, and with
the warning, bothered enough to leave the mud, for a minor offense.
The newbie in question revealed the location of a spell word in a
request for information. My feeling on this is one of annoyance at this
particular matter. I honestly feel that adminstration was much more
effective when someone was reminded of the rule for a first offense -
not immediately stuck with an official warning. Only when someone
has shown a trend of disregard for the rules should they really be
punished - a newbie who makes a simple mistake once could still be
a contributing member to the MUD society, but, instead, we are short
a member of the community.
Friday, August 29 2003, 10:00AM
had said newbie stuck around long enough to discuss it with
the immortals online at the time perhaps they wouldn't have left.
But having logged into legend and agreed to play by the rules they
are subject to the same standards that the rest of you are.
consistency is very important and will be maintained at every point possible.
possible. I'm sorry if soemone felt the need to leave over a verbal warning for a blatant rule violation.
Friday, August 29 2003, 10:05AM
Verbal warnings are given to document that a person has been made aware of
the rules, -- why? because some people will pretend ignorance indefinitely.
That said, the person in question was not a newbie and should know better.
Friday, August 29 2003, 11:19AM
Shrug, cops give verbal warnings for minor offenses like speeding, and since
Shrug, cops give verbal warnings for minor offenses like speeding, and
since the Administration is basically a police force, I don't see why
they think they are somehow better than cops. Oh well, whatever, warn
everyone into oblivion for all I care, whatever gets you off.
Friday, August 29 2003, 11:39AM
it always comes down to being accused of taking enjoyment
out of giving warnings. I know I will never convince anyone
of this but we don't enjoy warning or punishing people. We
would all prefer it if we didn't have to. But being consistent
is teh first step we are taking in trying to make everyone
understand that we aren't playing favorites or that teh rules
are only enforced by some people. A verbal warning carries
no punishment other than what you inflict on yourself for
your own sake of feeling stepped on by authority. Though a
pattern of minor/verbal warnings will force us to look closer
at the whole history of a player rather than just what is
the current infraction. That is why the warning system has to
stay in place teh way it is and every infraction needs to be
assigned a warning .. verbal or more serious.
Friday, August 29 2003, 01:43PM
I like consistancy a lot. And I can totally picture some newbie
flipping out and running off after being warned. But were you visible
had he chosen to try to talk it out? Or was this a hit and run warning..
I remember I used to get warped into Satsu's office whenever I did something
something bad...or he would warp into me and talk about it. Now half the
time I don't even know if i'm being punished by an admin or some builder
or what....(and yes I realize it says thier name when you get a warning,
don't be so picky!)
Friday, August 29 2003, 03:18PM
I didn't issue the warning, I got back to the keyboard
about 5 minutes later. I think the person who did had been visible at the time
time though. Hard to say. They were discussing it on chat as well. So thee person wasn't
person wasn't hit and run.
Friday, August 29 2003, 04:21PM
I don't think warnings are that bad, myself. I do understand the need
of consistent rules. And I don't think that you all take joy in
the issuance of warnings. But I do feel that perhaps before the warning
is issued would be the ideal time to discuss the matter with the affected
party. A warning may take them by surprise, and, until you have a firm
understanding of what exactly it means, it could scare someone off.
I understand why rules are in place and the neccesity of their
enforcement. But it is equally important to understand that you are
dealing with people, not mobs or nameless 'cases'. People are going
to react perhaps in an unusual way, which is why I feel it would be
very nice to discuss with the person and THEN give them a verbal
warning. I've had characters issued verbal warnings for various
offenses by imms who were invis and had absolutely no intention of
talking about it. I reacted differently than the person in question,
but I could see why someone would react as they did.
Friday, August 29 2003, 07:11PM
I was online at the time this happened, and the immortal that issued
the warning WAS visible, IS in the admin department, and WAS
speaking with the player from what I could tell. I was away from the
keyboard at the moment it happened but got back in time to see the
warning occur and was around briefly for the subsequent chats and
sudden decision to go linkdead instead of sticking around to have
the chat with the immortal that happened to be visible.
If the warning hadn't been issued already, I would have issued it
myself. I wasn't visible and since I was leaving for work pretty
much right then, no, they wouldn't have been able to talk to me.
That's the way life goes sometimes, we don't always HAVE the ability
to sit and chat and hash out exactly what they did wrong, why, and
how they can make sure they don't do it again in the future, a
process that with some people, can take upwards of an hour.
So forgive us if real life or more pressing LegendMUD business calls
(I wouldn't sit and chat with you about a language warning if I was
already dealing with a harrassment issue, but I would still warn you
for it) and we make the decision to just issue the warning. We are
trying to be consistent across the board, fair across the board, and
in general more concise with the rules. We are trying not to give
anyone a foundation for claims of favoritism or inconsistency.
If you receive a warning and need to discuss it, disagree with it,
or need clarification, you won't necessarily get immediate
attention. But you can always drop a mudmail to the immortal
that warned you and/or Chocorua and/or Kaige regarding it and if you
don't want a written reply, you can ask to schedule a meeting to go
As for cops issuing verbal warnings for speeding... How many people
that have gotten "just a warning" have missed out on the ticket more
than just the once? I've got a coworker who should get a speeding
ticket a week, but his luck holds firm and the cops keep on being
nice. He certainly hasn't learned his lesson, the cops have no idea
he's a chronic offender since they don't track verbals, and I fear
for his victims the day he gets into an accident because he was
speeding. Just think if those verbal warnings were actually tracked
- maybe that second time around he'd actually get a ticket like he
should have instead of getting lucky and getting off with just being
inconvenienced for a few minutes.
We used to just issue verbal warnings without documenting them. That
practice bit us in the ass pretty bad on more than one occasion, got
us accused of favoritism and inconsistency, and gave the comminuty a
few bad apples that got left out to rot instead of being put in the
frdge for a while.
Anyhow, enough rambling here...
Saturday, August 30 2003, 04:01AM
Ok.. let's see if I can make sense of this from all these posts.
Said newbie was warned, and since you say it was done by a vis immie
I shall assume it was Bart. It would seem that the newbie WAS discussing
the warning and accidently chatted some of this on chat.
For which they promptly apologised. An Invis Immie then jumped on
chat and was.. shall we say a little bit rude. From her post, we can
assume this was Cheyla.
I would suggest that it was not so much the warning, which I see as
deserved (assuming it was a verbal), that scared them off.. rather
some invisible person jumping down ther throat.
Those of us who had dealt with said newbie thought she was rather nice
and really was a newbie to the mud! So, way to go chasing away good
My 2 cents worth!
Saturday, August 30 2003, 08:36AM
That post of Gripe's is probably the most useless and idiotic waste of
bandwidth I've yet to see on this board.
Saturday, August 30 2003, 08:46AM
Well, I'm glad the administrative staff isn't all as negative as
you are, Kae. I tried to avoid this post being used for personal
attacks, which is what too many complaints about administration
are, then you have to go and directly jump at someone for posting
what they saw. Thank you.
Saturday, August 30 2003, 09:11AM
Please explain to me where exactly the objectivity is and the personal
attacks aren't in playing guessing games as to which immortals were
involved. That was nothing but a waste of time and bandwidth which
has nothing to do with the issue you raised, Dolly, nor serves any
purpose but to start more flame wars. Thank you in return for
playing along with it, I suppose.
Saturday, August 30 2003, 09:38AM
What other option is there in response to clandestine abuse from
invisible imms? The newbie was mistreated by an invisible imm,
and we were not able to see who it was. What's the other option?
Saturday, August 30 2003, 09:46AM
you make some assumptions about the situation that
I'd like to know more about.
1) how is it you know they were mistreated by an invisible imm?
2) since when is it anyoneelse's business to judge a situation
they only know half the story of?
I see a lot of angst against the imm staff here
for doing the job that i have asked them to do.
Warnings are given out for every infraction and I want
them given out immediately so they are not forgotten. Any discussion that happens after the warning
happens after the warning is given out is carried out by the individual
staff member and I can't control what it is. I was on and I saw what this supposed "abuse"
abuse by an invis imm was and it was a request to read the rules.
Yes people don't like it when invis imms give them instructions
but like it or not sometimes those instructions necessary and meant in a helpful
helpful manner. It is only the player's deep seated hate for the immortal staff
staff or authority in general that puts it into an abusive light.
If this supposed newbie (probably was a newbie by the definition
of "hasn't made a level 50 char yet") would have not gotten
angry and dropped link, perhaps a discussion could have happened.
We won't ever know now what might have happened.
Saturday, August 30 2003, 09:52AM
Another thing to keep in mind - I know you're looking to be
consistent in handling rules violations - however, you're dealing
with a HUGE variable - human nature. People are going to react
very differently to the same punishments. Some people will try
to see exactly how many warnings they can get before deletion,
some people will try to avoid warnings. Some people can be
turned around by a brief discussion. Perhaps the search for
consistency is a bad idea because it leaves out the very thing
this game is based on - players. You can consistently manage
as many artificially intelligent mobs as you want. But without
some grasp of basic psychology, or even a little empathy,
administration is not going to be succesful in handling people.
Saturday, August 30 2003, 09:56AM
I don't have a deep-seated hate for adminitration - I just have a
desire to see things amended for the better. Just because I have
no warnings on my record, does NOT mean that I'm not bothered when
I see things happen. I know about the mistreatment because it
happened on a PUBLIC CHANNEL. Everyone on the mud saw it happen.
The problem I have with the authority of this mud is that every
bit of constructive criticism is taken as a personal attack -
that's NOT what I'm doing here. I'm trying to inspire change
for the better. When I see an injustice, I want to see it
corrected. The administrators police the players, but there
needs to be some sort of oversight by the players to ensure
that we are fairly treated.
Saturday, August 30 2003, 10:11AM
As a witchie who has spent a lot of time helping all the little
newbies in the world, and devoted an amount of time to this one,
I can definitively state that she was a new player. One of the
reasons I choose to devote some of my time to newbies is that I
can still remember my early days here on Legend. (No really, my
brain isn't that foggy yet!) This little one hadn't even ventured
out of her hometown yet! I do hope she comes back because she was
Saturday, August 30 2003, 10:09AM
how people are punished for their rule breaking
is handled very much on a case by case basis. The
warning system isn't a punishment unless you personally
have a need to take it that way. That is not how it is
used or intended. It is a record of that character's
past crossings with the rules. It is provided to the
player as a tool to allow then to know that they
have had documented problems.
As for empathy and all that you ask for .. it's there
but when someone immediately jumps to the defensive
about a situation there is no way to salvage the
situation without a lot more time than we always
Again the whole situation did NOT happen in the public eye
on chat. Only the players complaint and a reminder to
read the rules.
Saturday, August 30 2003, 10:18AM
The best way to avoid just making the staff really angry and quite unlikely
to take your complaints seriously is to stick to valid issues that you know
about and preferably even can back up if required or at least have
witnessed yourself. I'm talking directly to Gripe on this, because his or
her attack on immortals based on mere guesswork was childish and as I said
earlier, a waste of bandwidth. It had as much validity as if I was to find
a report that a character duplicated an item and concluded that since Dolly
was around at the time and the wind is westernly, she did it. To conclude
that anyone who comes across as grumpy is Cheyla, or that Bart is the only
visible immortal, is about as right and well-founded as to declare Dolly a
constant cheater or state that Cyrene was in fact doing all this on purpose
to start a flame war. Absurd is the word that describes this best.
Here is one thing you can do for certain, Dolly, on this issue and others
like it: Acquire a log of the incident in question and demonstrate what
exactly you mean by abuse. The log of the incident I have only shows one
comment to be made by an invisible immortal:
[Chat] (Immortal): read help rules, please
It's obvious from your posts that you feel that more than this occurred.
I'm positive I'm not the only one who will want to know what you're talking
about before agreeing that any abuse occurred.
The other option that you ask for is the same old one as players have and
have always had: Grab whatever evidence you have, even if it's third party
gossip, and go talk to the head admin and/or the implementor about it. The
immortal staff is by no means perfect, and this is your most efficient way
of having a situation addressed without it turning into a flame war where
anyone else with an old issue or nothing better to do can pitch in and
muddy the waters for everyone, achieving nothing for anyone.
I'm truly disappointed, I'll admit, and that is why I reacted as harshly as
I did. Gripe and you, Dolly, are both old players who are familiar with the
rules and the way the system works. Neither of you have a bad admin record.
Why this sudden need to declare the revolution on behalf of an old player
who returned to us (I base this on her own statement the day before that
she had come back to Legend after being disappointed with another game for
its lack of community feel), made a small mistake, and dropped link without
being even willing to discuss the issue with anyone?
Saturday, August 30 2003, 10:13AM
Um. Long spammy post. Me currently reading a book called
"Why We Hate" by Rush W. Dozier. After witnessing what happened to
spark off this post, plus all the other stuff that's been going
on for the past few weeks on this board, in q&a, all of that, me
just sorta found this portion of the book incredibly, if
Quoting starts here:
Hate has four core elements: obsessive, intense dislike; negative,
binary stereotyping and generalization; a lack of empathy for the
object of the hatred; and a basic sense of hostility that can trigger
aggression - the fight response. Through stereotyping, hate involves
prejudice, but prejudice doesn't necessarily involve hate. Some
European colinists, for example, felt paternalistic rather than
antagonistic toward indigenous peoples. But these kinds of us-them
distinctions always have the potential to blossom into hatred. Hate
is more complex than instinctive emotions such as fear or surprise.
It has no characteristic form of physical expression. The physical
manifestation of hate can range from instant, violent rage to cruel
laughter and perverse joy. But the underlying theme of all these
forms of expression is hostility. A wide variety of emotions and
feelings can be the source of hatred: frustration, envy, grief,
pain, fear, anger, disgust. Intense dislike in the context of
hate means that the primitive neural system has marked a
phenomenon as a significant threat to survival and/or reproduction.
Studies of human behaviour have identified at least eight major
sources of prejudice and hatred: group fitness, identity,
competition for scarce resources, control and dominance,
powerlessness, fear and pain, status, and social roles. Almost
all involve elements of the us-them distinction. The basic us-them
dynamic is often describes as group fitness. This is the tendency
of members of an in-group (or us-group) to value themselves more
highly than they value non-members - a primitive tendency to
promote group cohesion, which can be crucial in coping with threats.
One's sense of identity can also promote unfavourable contrasts
with others. The Nazis defined the Aryan master race by belittling
other "races." Sometimes, the sense of identity of longtime
adversaries begins to derive solely from their opposition to each
other. David Grossman, an Israeli novelist, has argued that this
is a major problem in the Middle East conflict: "All of us, Israelis
and Palestinians, were born into this conflict. Our identity is
formulated, to no small extent, in terms of hostility and fear,
survival and death. Sometimes it seems as if Israelis and
Palestinians have no clear identities without the conflict, without
the 'enemy' whose existence is necessary, perhaps vital, to their
senses of self and community."
...Seeking control and dominance is another basic human tendency
that often leads to conflict, especially when an in-group seeks
to dominate an out-group ("them"). A sense of powerlessness and
vulnerability can also lead to prejudice and hate, as the
primitive neural system perceives itself as being trapped by a
threat. ... Fear and pain are related feelings that tend to push
the primitive neural system into overdrive and may create hatred
of whoever or hwatever produces these feelings. One's social status
can also lead to primitive prejudice and us-them divisions. We
tend to positively stereotype those of higher status (celebrities,
for example, in Western culture) and negatively stereotype
those of lower status. And, finally, social roles can cause us
to prejudge others and ourselves with stereotyped expectations.
Employer-employee, doctor-patient, husband-wite, and a slew of
other social roles come with preconceptions that may or may not
fit our individual abilities and needs. ... The problem with
social roles often comes when there is a presumed
superior-inferior relationship with other people.
The quality of mercy is not strain'd,
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath: it is twice blest;
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes:
'Tis mightiest in the mightiest: it becomes
The throned monarch better than his crown;
His sceptre shows the force of temporal power,
The attribute to awe and majesty,
Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings;
But mercy is above this sceptred sway;
It is enthroned in the hearts of kings,
It is an attribute to God himself;
And earthly power doth then show likest God's
When mercy seasons justice.
End spammy post!
Saturday, August 30 2003, 11:19AM
kae's append no. 10 is soooo hostile, that I don't see how on this very
string imms can claim that it is merely consistency and not hostility.
kae herself says that dolly and gripe are old players who never had
problems with admin (ie respected the rules), so where's all this hostility
i didn't see what happened with said newlyn, but just seeing this board
and kae's append made me sick.
admin should make her apologise.
Saturday, August 30 2003, 12:07PM
I agree that Kae's reply was hostile, but her
hostility was drawn out from what she saw as a
(err an) attack on the immortals. I don't know
that it was the best response but that is her
choice to make. I certainly won't be forcing
anyone to make apologies. That is up to Kae to
decide. For teh record I think she was right
the views she was responding to were a waste of
bandwidth in the current discussion because they
were from OLD bad blood between the imm staff and
specific players, not how this newlyn was treated.
Saturday, August 30 2003, 03:29PM
That is exactly the freaking problem! You see everything as an attack
against the immortals these days!
I can't even count how many times recently i've seen the imms flip
out over nothing, on the disc board or at QnA.
Obviously this whole stupid admin issue is sensitive to us all
(well, to you all. I don't give a turd) but when imms spaz out on
somebody who is asking a question at QnA or freak out about some minor
suggestion on the disc board thats bad.
Saturday, August 30 2003, 03:44PM
There is a big thing that everyone is missing here and I'm probably
wrong, and I probably have no idea what I'm talking about but what
I'm thinking is that Legend isn't a beaurcracy charged with the
management of millions of people, it's a tiny little village stuffed
into a tiny little area of the internet. We are maybe 200 people from
all over the world, and all members of a tiny tiny little community
that is extremely unique, rather friendly, and something I am glad to
say that maybe in all my years I've contributed positively to it.
Yes, by whatever voting process is used, Immortals are the pseudo-
government of this place, and the administration wing is the police
force, and I do think they do their best to make sure everyone is happy.
My main problem is, we are all human beings, and its not like there
are SO MANY people, and SO MANY things going on that the immortal staff
is SO overwhelmed that they must resort to a system of beaucratic
indifference. We are a tiny little place, and I think a little more
human to human personal contact is not out of the question, and I dont
think it will create a feelings of favoritism anymore then that which
already exists. In Conclusion, just try to remember, we are not a bunch
of people trying to foil the immortals every plan, and the immortals
are not a small cabal of plotters intent on destroying the MUD experience
I imagine 95% or more of the people in our village are good human beings
intent on nothing more then having a good time, and helping others.
I feel the worst part about this whole post has been the anticeptic way
that the immortal staff has approached it. A lot of us have been here
just as long as most imm's and have just as much emotional investment in
this place. Well that rambled way to much, but never the less my desire
for the administration arm of the Immortals is to stop treating
administration like its a government complex, and realize that this is a
tiny little village, most of us have been here for a long time and we're
all if not friends, at least acquaintences. In the Administrations quest
for fairness and universal accountability, they've lost focus on the people
-e and that is the worst crime of all
Sunday, August 31 2003, 12:15AM
I like that it's always the admin staff that can change
the way things are handled. I like how it is always the
administrative staff that are out of line and don't have any
feelings about the way things are handled. You couldn't
be further from the truth of how things are done or how
we look upon our duties here. The fact that we have to enforce
the rules on legend and enforce them consistently (or at
much as we can without this being a paying job that we have
scheduled coverage for). The ONLY way for the admin
staff to keep any face of fairness is to be consistent.
Can that be done with compassion? yes it certainly can.
Will it always be? unlikely to be 100% the case, mostly
because of percieved feelings. An immortal who issues a
warning to someone is always seen as the "bad cop" and no
matter what we do we have to deal with that. Chances are
sooner or later someone will have to issue that warning
(because i have told them to, i want every infraction
documented, call it what you like) and not have the time
to sit down with the player and discuss the finer points
of the rules. This is why we have email.. mudmail, tells
and of course there is always later... with the possible
exception of harassment there is NOTHING that is so
important that admin deals with that can't wait to be discussed
at a later time when both parties have time.
If you want more compassion then start showing some. Try
and treat the administrative staff like human beings and
understand that by issuing these warnings they are acting
in your best interest. Generally when someone crosses a line
that they either didn't know existed or weren't in the mood
to pay attnetion to, a warning is all it takes to set them
straight. Our players, on the whole, are intelligent
individuals and if they bother to read the rules will understand
them. unfortunately in today's world where
noone is willing to wait or to do more than skim documentation
it is unlikely that people will read the rules that are posted
and there fore they will break them. By issuing the warnings
immediately and making sure that documentation is in place
for the future everyone is treated fairly. I know that
a lot of people think that I enjoy being a sadistic
jerk to the player base and that everything I say is dripping
with contempt... Those that are so convinced I doubt
that I will be able to get through to.. so be it. If I
hated you all so much believe me .. it would be a lot easier
to NOT be here but to be running my own mud where I made my
own rules. Fortunately legend exhists and I don't have
to go through all that and Legend's rules are very much
fair. I'm proud to be part of the staff that is making
sure that we continue in this direction and I am sorry
if anyone takes my blunt nature as rude or condescending.
Most of you don't know me well enough for me to have
the energy to dislike you. That is good. I prefer to
be able to meet new people from time to time. Let's just not
do it in an administrative fashion.