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Vive la Revolution - LONG|U6

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Posted by Gripe on 09/02

Ok, since Kae seems so upset by my assumption (and yet quite willing to make plenty of her own) I shall explain the reasoning on which they're based. Assumption #1 Bart warned the newbie Choc stated in his post 'I think the person who did [warn them] had been visible at the time'. And Cheyla in hers 'the immortal that issued the warning WAS visible'. Bart was the only visible imm on at the time, hence Bart warned the newbie. BTW, if it hasn't been blindingly obvious from our previous posts, none of us appear to have a problem with the newbie actually being warned, we have a problem with the actions of the invis imm(s). Assumption #2 Cheyla was in invis imm Well, I'll admit this one is a little bit more of a gut feeling. Lets see how I intimated it from the posts. Well, since Cheyla CHOSE to put in her thoughts on this discussion, it does tend to suggest she has some vested interest in this. In her first post, she seems quite sure of what actually happened, she emphasized it quite a lot. And yet, in her second post she 'was around briefly for the subsequent chats'. Sounds rather well, vague. Yes, I'm reading between the lines here, but nowhere nearly as bad as Kae's useless usage of analogy would like to suggest. Basically, I saw the incident, read Dolly's original post and then the blathering from the imms and was rather incensed. By the way, feel free at any time to deny it was Cheyla, I'll be happy to put forward an apology. Assumption #3 The newbie was a new player Maybe they'd visited legend briefly before, but as far as I'm concerned, they were a new player. And now for the next part of my rebuttal; Choc asks 'how is it you know they were mistreated by an invis imm?' We saw it, duh! and also 'since when is it your [being the players] to pass judgment?' When your [being the invis imm(s)] lack of care for us gets to the point your actions cause us to lose a potential acquisition to our player base. If you haven't noticed, this is a game and a game well, needs players and many among us go out of their way to encourage new players. And now, let's move onto Kae, who feels the need to put in her opinion on this matter despite not being an admin imm nor apparently around at the time. Let's see, ah yes, 'valid issue' I think is the term she used. I think we, as a player base, have a right to feel angry and upset about this incident. There is a general lack of care for the player base coming from certain imm factions at the moment, this incident being just one example. It comes down to the fact the WHOEVER the invis imm was, they were wrong! How about instead of starting a flame war you accuse us of starting you could respond to Dolly's post with something like, 'Yes, this incident was regrettable, the warning was already being dealt with when someone unaware of what was going on joined in and scared this person off. We're sorry about this. Thanks.' Also, stop blaming the newbie for dropping link. I'm going to ignore your childish jibes about being childish and a waste of bandwidth. Based on guesswork? well yes, but I am capable of READING FOR COMPREHENSION. I did, and by the severity of your response I'm guessing I was pretty darn close. What do I mean by abuse? Did I say that? I don't think so! I called the invis imm (who I am still going to assume was Cheyla) rather rude. And accused them of jumping down the newbie's throat. Something I still state they did, even though I'm not a lame logger so I cannot now prove it. Since, you obviously have a log, perhaps you'd like to post it in its entirety rather than selectively quoting it so we can all decide for ourselves. And so, as we draw to the end of the incredibly long post, let me tell you about the need for revolution and why I felt the need to respond. I was present for this incident, I saw it and saw how wrong it was. I saw Dolly's post, and agreed with it mostly. I then saw Choc and Cheyla's posts and from the information within them I understood a bit more of what happened. More importantly, I recognized the misinformation supplied within them and felt the need to put forward another view of history. Like, the fact that this newbie ACCIDENTLY chatted and apologized, a fact which appeared to have got lost! Choc: 'Only the players complaint and a reminder to read the rules' wrong, wrong, wrong! I felt the need to post, even though I'm normally such a good little player, although Kae, how you know that is beyond me since I would appear to be only level 1. What has seemed to have got lost is that this is a gaming community and we need both players and immortals. The current lack of respect being shown to the player base by some of the immortals is a worry and I fear that we will lose players because of it, you've almost lost me. Warnings are often deserved, we all get tired, forget, are too wasted, etc to function properly every now and then. I have NO problem with warnings, I have a problem with the attitude rather aptly displayed by the immortal staff in response to Dolly's original post. And Choc, as to admin always coming under fire.. well duh! isn't your job to administer the player base? Of course you're going to come under fire. However your attitude displayed in such comments as 'supposed newbie' are rather less than helpful. And how about whining 'but when someone immediately jumps to the defensive', admin is conflict resolution, someone being defensive is something YOU should be able to handle. And by the way, talking about always jumping to a defensive position.. ahem! This could have been entirely avoided by apologizing for you mistakes like any good manager would do, instead YOU started a flame war, not us. Regards, The apparently old player with a good admin record. Gripe |U6

From: Kae Sunday, August 31 2003, 06:07AM [Chat] Cyrene: Ok, why does the old warrior continue to block my path when I have given him coins? [Chat] Someone: he's really senile and doesn't remember you giving him any? [Chat] Cyrene: Bleh. I have him five and now I only have 1 left. [Chat] Cyrene: Here brat, brat, braaaat.... -sigh- Chat] Dolly: you might need to find a local newbie, and sell the newbie for some funds [Chat] Cyrene: I am a local newbie. :( [Chat] Dolly: find a newer newbie to sell! [Chat] Sephia: sell yourself to the tavern men! [Chat] Cyrene: you're kidding? heh. [Chat] Dolly: Tika's already got that tavern covered [Chat]: Sephia nods her agreement with Cyrene. [Chat]: An aura of heavenly light appears above Sephia's head. [Chat] Cyrene: :notes the horns peeking from behind Sephia's head... [Chat]: Sephia grins evilly. [Chat] Cyrene: (grin) [Chat] Cyrene: I have been told to learn 'vina', I must visit an [mob name]... but someone else has said that no, there is someone in this town who can teach me this word. Can someone help me discover which is correct? [Chat] Kundry: errrr don't say all that on chat [Chat] Cyrene: Er, I'm new and haven't given anyone anything. I was asking to find out what to believe of what was given me. Innocent mistake. Warning is unexpected and seems a tad harsh. [Chat] Cyrene: drat. mischannel. [Chat] Someone: read help rules, please [Chat]: Monkeygirl waves hello to the world! [Chat]: Wib beeps Monkeygirl on the nose. [Chat]: Pitchfork waves to Monkeygirl. [Chat]: Monkeygirl beams at Wib inquiringly. [Chat] Cyrene: I did. I wasn't giving information. I was asking for it. Sorry to see no one seems to comprehend the difference. I'm still eager to hear where exactly the invisible immortal was abusive and out of bounds. |U6

From: Chocorua Sunday, August 31 2003, 12:16PM not sure why this needed a new post but I will respond to a couple points here. Yes it is my job as head admin to deal with the administrative troubles of legend and more often than not that ends up in some kind of confrontation. Sadly that is true. I don't think that it needs to be that way and contrary to the general tone of these threads I don't go out of my way to cause confrontation or be defensive. As far as the new player being driven away, that is regrettable. I feel sorry that a reminder to read the rules was offensive to them enough to make them drop link and never return. Oddly enough the response that it was a mischannel was probably being typed at teh same time as the reminder about the rules and when you take into account that there could be lag on one side or the other. I still don't think that the invis imm's comment to read the rules was out of line. Now if it is all simply because the person was invisible then we are dealing with an entirely different set of reasns to be upset. Immortals will be on and invisible at times and we will at times use chat. Sometimes we might even not remember that we are invisible before making a comment that we don't expect to be controversial. It is every so popular to remind me and the imm staff that we are dealing with people (humans for the most part i suspect) on the other side of the link. That goes both ways and someone who would rather drop link and avoid the entire situation perhaps made the right decision for them and we are here now participating in this holy quest to rid the realm of injustice without t anyone to defend. anyhow I know my view points are rarely popular. But remember when you are on an online game no matter how hard you try to be anonymous it's unlikely to be successful. Patterns always emergy giving you away. It is also entirely likely that this whole mess we are dealing with now is really about something entirely different. yes i know that last paragraph was nonsense... each sentence has an intended audience. if they read it they will now who they are. Chocorua |U6

From: Sandra Sunday, August 31 2003, 12:58PM Ok, I'm going to try to make sense out of all of this so forgive me if I go off on some tangent. First, I wasn't here when all of the original incident happened. I only found out about it by reading Dolly's original post. Then, of course, I read the several appends. Wondering what went on to cause all of this, I talked with a player or two that was there at the time. Then I talked with some immorts that were also there, and gained 2 copies of the chats that occurred. So, with all of this information in tow, I pondered it for a day and here I am posting. I'm going to be rather blunt and unbiased in this post, this may offend some people, and it may not. I'll apologize in advance for that now. Ok, with that over with, let us get to the juicy stuff. I feel bad that the newbie in question decided to drop link and leave the mud due to a verbal warning and obvious misunderstanding of the situation. I had a chance to meet said newbie, and was rather fond of her and her ambitious experimentations and explorations of our little world. Do I think that the situation could have been handled differently? Sure. There are always a number of ways to handle any given situation. Do I think that it was handled wrong? Not really, save one thing(and I'm just as guilty as the next immort for this). Instead of chatting, a tell should have been sent and should have been done while visable. In our rush to point out mistakes, we often forget that new people ARE new people, and don't know who Someone is, or feel threatened when the Big Guy chats something at us. It's something that most of the immortal staff needs to remember, and while we do try, we often forget in the rush of doing whatever we're doing OOW flipping in just in time to see a problem and tossing out a short answer that's really not meant as mean but may be seen that way. I do believe that we will work on that. The admin department is ALWAYS going to be seen as the bad guys. It's a fact of life here, just as is leveling, dying, dting and whatever else. While the admin staff is very aware of this, it still takes its toll on them. Take it from a former Head Admin that couldn't wait to step down after 2 years. Almost instinctively, you'll find them on the defensive. Is that how it should be? Nope. But it's a hard habit to change. Take the police as an example, since it's been used in previous appends. So anyway, back to the situation that's started this all. One thing missing at the end of Kae's log in this post is that at the end of it the newbie dropped link. I understand that there was a comment or two after this, but the newbie was already gone and the immort had it already typed out, etc etc. I don't know if said newbie was given an explanation of the verbal warning she received before she lost link. She was told, obviously, to read Help Rules, which does lead to an explanation of warnings. Strangely, I'm glad that these posts were put on the board. It does give the imm staff a chance to reflect on how they handle situations, and occasionally we need that. However(you knew there would be one, didn't you?), the posts quickly turned harsh, from both sides, and that is where the mistakes begin. EVERYONE should take care in their posting. Yes, this includes me as I know I've been rather harsh in some of my posts in the past. And it's mainly the reason that I've not posted until now. |U6 If you feel that someone on staff reacted wrongly, was out of line, or just plain rude, stop for a minute before posting and make sure that you aren't following the same path. This goes both ways, btw. So anyway, to end this massive spewage of mine, let me just say that it was a sad thing that the newbie decided to leave. I do wish that she would come back, and hope that we've all learned from our mistakes so that no others end up with the same fate. Think before you post, if you feel that no matter what you post will be in anger, pull one of us aside and bitch away for a while. Hell, I've listened to quite a few players rant, and don't mind doing it if it'll help calm a situation. I hope I've offered something positive to the discussion. Sandra |U6

From: Nelson Sunday, August 31 2003, 02:30PM I don't want to get involved here. But is that the full log? :P I find it hard to believe they would make a comment like they did (A fightin' comment!) then just drop link before seeing what anybody said, or saying anything more themselves. Looks like that whole thing was just picking up and them BOOM! log ends. |U6

From: Dolor Sunday, August 31 2003, 04:41PM Well, yeah, that's a fightin' comment at the end, but it can also be read as a "Well, excuuuuuuse me!

From: slam door

From: " comment, too, so it makes some sense to me. But then, that's me, and I'm nuts. -Dolor. |U6

From: LadyAce Sunday, August 31 2003, 06:30PM I was going to just post and say "me too!". Sandra did a great job of conveying all the complexities and contradictions of this topic. -LA |U6

From: Jenna Sunday, August 31 2003, 07:46PM Ok, Choc's found me out! I didn't go out of my way to hide who I was. But those amongst you who know who I am will understand why I had the need to make sure my opinions were perceived as only my own. Which, BTW they are completely. I'm also amused to find I have patterns of behavior other than squealing. Kae, I never accused the invis imm of being abusive, I called them rude. Please stop putting words into my mouth, or fingers as the case may be. So, I raised a number of issues and you've chosen to dump the log. Well, thanks for actually doing that, but it does seem to be rather incomplete. The timing of the chats does not show, and only those of us actually on are going to be aware of that. The invis imm was rude because they're comments were completely unnecessary. That is, at least, my take on what was wrong with this incident. However, what has really brought down my ire, were the responses to Dolly's post. You seemed to not understand why we are upset, I explained, admittedly a little sarcastically, but really quite nicely when it come down to it. The initial response to my post WAS completely and utterly rude. And why the new post? Well both Kae and Choc had so many questions and assumptions to answer.. it ended up so terribly long and raised several new issues I felt it deserved it. I have a right to my opinions, and though I choose not to express them most of the time, I choose to exercise my right to express them now. Jenna, who does have a Gripe An now for my usage of analogy: First year uni student is downloading mp3s, her account is suspended and she comes to the help desk to find out what's happened. Tech support person comes out, introduces themselves and starts to explain what she's done wrong. During the course of the explanation, another tech support person comes out, hears part of the conversation, "I didn't know, is there a place I can read all these rules?", and decides to throw in a comment "You should have read the Acceptable Use Policy you signed!". Student bursts into tears and runs away. Later, a student representative posts on a board about this incident and management's response is "We didn't do anything wrong, she should have read the rules." |U6

From: Kae Monday, September 01 2003, 04:24AM It's the log as I have it. If there's something missing, by all means, bring it forward. Maybe I'll finally find out what exactly it was that was so rude. It's worth noticing though, that my version of the log ends where Cyrene dropped link. Which means that anything said after may possibly be rude, but it's not something she would have heard. |U6

From: Nelson Monday, September 01 2003, 05:38AM Thats basicliy administering that it was rode man and whether the newb heard it or not they coulda and apparently a lot of other people did and are pist about it. Maybe the imms need to take sensitivity training man man I got the munchies now |U6

From: Archaon Monday, September 01 2003, 08:50AM hmmm, me's read most of this (ingoring some of the REALLY long posts). Firstly what I see everywhere is LOTS and LOTS of assumptions from everyone, morts and imms alike. Probably THE biggest assumption that EVERYONE has made, was that they deliberately went LD, (okay might be a high chance, might not). As someone said, the ending comment of the log could either be interpreted as basically 'screw you i'm going home

From: slam door

From: (in this case LD would be delibrate), or it could be that they were just getting revved up for the fight, saying big fighting words or something, in which case they would lose link if say they were on dialup and had call waiting on. Or their ISP booted them or they could have dropped link for any number of other reasons. Without actually talking to the player in question all EVERYONE is doing when they talk about it (except maybe in the imms were rude thing, which i personally dont see an issue, but I wasnt there and I tend to look in the 'everyone's nice' image). Who knows, they might have been fighting words, then they got booted or maybe even lightning fried their compy so they wont be here for a while, but maybe, they will come back, who knows. Quit assuming stuff. Oh and about all this imm bashing and stuff recently. I think everyone should come to this conculsion (whether true or false it will save alot of time and hastle). Firstly since imms do have the power, its prolly best to assume they ARE right, when you don't know what you're talking about. Also a safe assumption is (and has been proven on many an occasion), no imm will change under any circumstance. They are all bitches, all out to get you and make the place hell for you (okay the hell and bitches i made up), but they aint gonna change so you may as well learn to live with it, cause if you dont you're time here is just gonna be hell. If you accept that and that you cant do anything about it, well then you can make ways to minimise contact with the imms, thus making it more enjoyable for everyone. Oh and for the record, I'm NOT on the imm's side, I personally think that lately they have been getting a tad more flak than they deserve Archaon |U6

From: Jenna Monday, September 01 2003, 10:23PM Well, since everyone seems to be ignoring any of my 'valid issues' let me try putting this shortly and simply. (or not so shortly) I saw the incident, in my opinion the invis imm was rude and had no business sticking their nose into the matter at all. I have no logs, I am not a compulsive watcher or logger. I chose to assume this was Cheyla on the strength of her posts, and, as I said, please feel free to deny this and I will apologise. I didn't talk to someone else as you'd like to suggest. At no time have any of the immortal staff denied my version of events, other than seemingly being unable to understand why we are upset about it. Kae was downright rude, defensive and unconstructive in her initial criticism of me. She has also been trying to put words into my mouth. And yet, she is not a member of the admin staff and would appear to have nothing to do with this incident. We all have a right to express our opinions, but I am somewhat bemused by her attitude. I posted anonymously so that my opinion would hopefully be taken as just that. I came out of the closet as I had no need to hide my identity from the player base. I also objected to Choc's implications about who and what I am. I'm not terribly impressed with you character assassination of me or Dolly. As you point out, we are old players with good records, we have stated repeatedly that we have no problems with warnings or immortals generally. And yet you like to accuse us of hatred and me in particular of 'OLD bad blood between the imm staff and specific players`. Perhaps you would like to explain this to me, because I have no history of bad blood at all. I am, in fact upset at the treatment of this newbie, that was all I was upset about until Kae felt the need to put in her well thought out opinions. And finally, the only admin imms I have seen on for weeks are Bart and Haley. Oh and Cheyla for about 5 minutes at the end of the elfgame. I hate to bring in this issue, but if you expect us to take it up you Choc, perhaps you should be visible. For anyone who doesn't live in your time zone you are basically impossible to get in contact with. By the way, I have a hell of a lot of compassion Choc, for your position as Head Admin and for the newbies out there. Newbies are my thing, whatever my guise is I help them. I have good reason to be upset about this incident, and even more good reason to be upset with the following response by you and Kae. But, I have no hatred as you'd like to imply, simply anger at how this was dealt with. Still willing to stand up and be counted, Jenna |U6

From: Herbert Tuesday, September 02 2003, 12:04AM Its all a shame, and I really hope its taught something. Losing a newbie is a shame, and the hostility in general is pretty disturbing and everything, I just really hope its a lesson learned.. not the beginning of something much worse. Keeping it simple, for a change, so passion doesnt get in the way of sensibility. D. |U6

From: Chocorua Tuesday, September 02 2003, 08:21AM Getting in contact with me may not be as easy as typing 'tell chocorua ....' but there are a number of methods available for communication. Mudmail and E-Mail are 2 of the most useful tools we have. I have lost a mudmail a time or two while sorting through the ones that I get but more often than not if you send me a note with a question or comlaint you will get a response. I check my mail multiple times a day. So getting in touch with me is not impossible. It might just take a little more work than sending a tell. I admit I am invis more than I'd like to be. I've found over time that people would rather that I be invisible while I am at work or oow than left vis with an afk buffer. I apparently wasted a lot of people's time somehow by trying to be visible to deal with as much as I could when i got back. This was as the players request so now I am invisible a lot. Got to love impossible situations. Chocorua |U6


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