It's been a while since I've been on, and it was quite a bit of
time before that that I logged on that I logged on for the purpose
of playing. I'm writing this post because I was approached today
by a friend and asked to read recent items on the discussion board.
I was then asked to post about why I stopped playing legend. I
agreed not because I want to attack anyone or point fingers but
because Legend was a big part of my life for a long time and it
will always have a special place in my heart.
Someone once told me that you can separate the people who leave
legend into two groups:
1. the seriously vocal ones who usually come back within a day,
sometimes within an hour, and amazingly sometimes even 5 minutes
2. those who kind of quietly slip out the door and may come back
every so often to read boards or say hello, but for the most part
eventually fade away never to be heard from again.
I am a part of the latter. I have, as Flower and perhaps one or
two other characters, been vocal on chat and/or in rp situations,
but very rarely on the mud have I spoken out in an occ manner
I started playing legend some time in 1997 and played off and on
for 6 years. Heh even to the end I didn't consider myself an
oldbie, but I think 6 years is a long time to have devoted to
characters and to a place. In those six years I was never warned,
verbally or otherwise about anything nor was I ever involved with
anything that had a detrimental impact upon the mud.
Legend has made me laugh, has made me cry, has given me some of
the best friends I will ever have in my life who I still talk to
every day and I still look very fondly on that day when I was
looking up MUDs on the net, saw in Legend's description that it
was newbie friendly and decided to give it a go.
I can't pinpoint the exact time when I became dissatisfied with
the mud or a catalyst that caused me to start contemplating
quitting because I don't believe there was one. The truth is, I
just started to notice little things that I didn't like very much.
Players who contributed to the downward spiral of the MUD I could
ignore because generally those who were troublemakers (ahh I know
you all fondly remember at least a few ;) ) ended up banned or
leaving. Even the quality of troublemaker started taking a dive
in the past few years, going from being highly amusing the people
everyone loved to hate, to being just annoying children.
It could of course be argued that I simply matured, but hell I
still laugh when I think of hmm I don't think I'll name names. ;)
In any case, I -can- say that what cinched it for me was the
immortal staff. Now by that I don't mean the individuals, but
rather the attitude that was being presented to the mortal
I found that it was becoming almost impossible to find an imm to
talk to for one, because even when 10 were signed on, there would
only be maybe one or two who were visible, and even those were
not always at keyboard or in window.
There was at least one new imm who I actually had to report for
breaking the rules on their mort in an interaction with myself
When players brought up problems where they disagreed with the
opinion of one imm or another, there were numerous cases where
the immortals involved reacted very rudely even when the mortal
was being polite. Even when I -did- have an opinion as to the
state of things, I refused to post about it and only talked it
over with certain imms I knew could be objective even if it was
their project that was being argued about because anyone who stuck
their heads up were having them chopped off.
It was almost as though disagreeing with an imm even politely
was becoming against the rules.
I understand that in a lot of cases the mortal involved was
confrontational but .. hmm let's put it this way. If you're
scolding a child and the child gets red-faced and yells "you're
stupid!" is it really appropriate to yell "So are you!" and lock
them in their room?
I have been an imm on other muds and am in fact an imm elsewhere
currently and I have to say I am a stickler for rules. I believe
they should be enforced and I have in my capacity as an Imm clashed
with players and received flames in the process. That being said,
I stopped playing Legend because I cannot be a part of a community
where people who are in positions of power become so cynical and
busy that they forgo common courtesy to the playerbase. I left
before the incidents that have been talked about in previous posts
precisely because I saw where things were going and knew such
incidents were going to happen. I love Legend and always will, it
is -because- I loved the game and the place and the memories that
I left, because I couldn't stand to watch where it was going.
So what was the purpose of this post? In truth I'm not really sure.
Perhaps it's my way of feeling less guilty for abandoning the MUD
I loved for so long without speaking my mind. Mostly though I'm
hoping that the imms will look and see that there are people who
-do- have good histories and who have played here a long time who
are simply asking you to take a step back from being offended and
truly look at the relationship between mortals and immortals at
the moment. It isn't just a few troublemakers protesting warnings
anymore, it's dedicated members of the playerbase who have devoted
years of their lives, the same way you have, to making this mud
a better place.
With love and fond wishes for all,
Monday, September 01 2003, 12:30AM
Thank you for your honesty. I feel it too, but am hoping things
will get better and on that chance, I hang on.
Monday, September 01 2003, 02:25AM
Well said, and not just cuz im an imm where you are too =p. I
seem to have done the same... But I have to say I definitely am
more vocal when I feel im being mistreated in any way, shape, or
form. I can sometimes sound like a complete ass, or what some would
call a normal teenager on a mud, tho I sadly am older =p. Yeah I
take things to heart a bit more, and when angry im not the best
person around... but knowing me, if the conversation is mature,
I tend to stay mature. Sometimes it just seems the only way
to get something into someone's head is to act like them..
anyway yeah.. enough of me rambling.. just wanted to say I
can see where you coming from in your post. Hopefully things
will turn around, a friendly atmosphere is always a plus :).
Sandman et all
Monday, September 01 2003, 09:01AM
Ohhhh, slow fade out. Sounds like whats happening to me.
Oh, so does the no one seeming to notice. Oh, guess I'm
not alone then...
Monday, September 01 2003, 12:24PM
disagreeing with immortals isn't even close to
being seen as a rule violation. I'd encourage it
because most of the immortal staff as human (wiht a few exceptions
that i'll leave up to speculation) but the manner
in which people choose to disagree can come into
conflict with the immortal staff. Yes the staff should
always be professional and courteous. What you all
have to realise is that you are ONLY seeing the public
side of things that are going on when you feel that
an imm is being unreasonable and rude to someone.
This in no way excuses rude behavior but when you take
half of a conversation and later marry it with
the version of the story you get from someone who
might have talked to someone involved you never
truely understand what went on.
I completely agree that the immortal staff on legend
has changed it's attitude and the way it deals with
things over the years. That is the nature of the beast.
I would like to ask that people who have problem with
individual imms take it up with them or me wither in
person (sorta) online or in mudmail/emails. If all
you want to do is feel like a victim and not contribute
to a solution there is not a lot that the imm staff can do
about it except take a defensive position and hold it.
If you see a problem atleast point it out to someone
who can do soemthing about it and bring along any
suggestions you ight have to fix it. Now here is a VERY
important point to go along with that. Just because
you propose a solution doesn't mean it's teh best or even
viable so don't be offended if it doesn't get implemented.
that is also the nature of the beast that is a community project.
Tuesday, September 02 2003, 03:23AM
you people make me want to cry
I understand flower's fading away thing though
mine wasn't imms but just a general feeling of moving on
legend gives everyone somthing, and most give somthing back
it's funny how a place like this can live on
in your life like a weed when you think you've moved on
what a big run on sentance that was!
legend gave me a lot of thrills and kept me up way to late
a lot of nites. I still miss being here time to time
but like I said, it's gave me so many good friends
who I sadly do not talk to very much anymore
some people just move on in life
Sunday, September 07 2003, 01:48AM
As another member of Flower's latter group, I feel compelled to share an
experience I've had recently. I have also kinda faded out, for many
reasons both related and unrelated directly to Legend. Bottom line, it
doesn't hold my interest the way it did in 1994 or even 2000.
Since leaving, I also have played other muds, and I've realized some
interesting things about Legend.
One mud in particular has very little visible rule enforcement by imms.
That's not to say there aren't strict rules...there are. It's just that
the players there are far less inclined to break them. Players are very
protective of their gameplay experience, to the point where I have yet
to witness any need for immortal intervention in several months of play.
It's made very clear from the beginning that if you aren't going to play
right, just move along. Why are these players so different from Legend's?
I am left to conclude that Legend somehow courts a type of player who is
less interested in the community aspects of mudding.
Speaking of immortal intervention, that's another thing I've realized
sets Legend apart. Several other muds I've been to have imm staffs who
operate largely behind the scenes. Compared to those, Legend seems like
"The Immortal Show". Throughout my years here, conflicts between morts
and imms, and sometimes even between imms, have been very public. Imms
always seem to be in the spotlight on Legend more than on any other
mud I've been to since. One look at the boards gives the impression that
the imms are indeed a bigger part of the community than the regular
players. How this got to be this way, I don't know...maybe it's a degree
of self-indulgence by the imms, or maybe it's just tradition here. But
I think a change in that regard would do Legend good.
Legend's a great mud with many positive qualities, and like Flower I'll
always look fondly back on my time here. But the players and immortals
both seem to lend themselves continually to an atmosphere of tension and
strife, and those are things I come online partly to get away from.
Sunday, September 07 2003, 11:42AM
I have to agree that legend does seem to carry a certain
number of players both past and present who would rather
not follow the rules that have been created to protect the
community. I think that is something that has slowly gotten
more and more the case since the early days on Legend and
comes with growth in an environment where we don't just
toss people out the door. Any number of people will know
my opinion on that subject but from the beginning we have
kept to the theory that we want/need players and that everyone
deserves teh same fair chance to shape up. Over the years
we have had to close our doors to very few. I think that
if we had been a bit stricter and less tolerant of some
of the abuse that has happened that there very well might
be a different atmosphere .. I just can't say if that would
be a dead (no real players and no energy) or more
As far as teh immortal involvement ... on Legend that is
just how it has always been. The immortal staff has always
been encouraged to be known and to get involved with the
community. I don't think that is a mistake. I think that
coupled with the above observations about rule breakers
makes for a very touchy situation. I suspect that if we
removed the element of legend that had a problem with
authority and rules in general that the immortal involvement
in the community would be far more positive. I also don't
see how we could make a chance like this to the existing
structure. It would be a VERY hard sell to be even more
strict with the rules and also to maintain the high
quality of players we have. Some of our most notorious
rule breakers have also been responsible for testing
the gaming engine that we are developing to it's limits.
Removing them now might just set us back 5 years on our
ability to test changes.
My point in all this? Boiled down from the previous post
and mine ... legend tolerates more bad behavior than
I think we should and that coupled with the imm staff's
egomaniac approach to being involved makes it a
very hard situation to make right.
Monday, September 08 2003, 03:31PM
I definitely appreciate the thoughts & feedback shared on these
threads, and have been turning the ideas in my mind (and will go on
In particular, I was thinking about the use of boards, and the level
of imm involvement on them, and the idea of Legend as "the immortal
show. I know that when imms don't respond to board posts, we often
hear that players would like to hear more from us. And, when we're
not active in speaking on channels or putting together events, we
hear about that, too.
I haven't gone to a large number of other muds, but the few I've visited
have had widely varying levels of imm involvement -- on one, it was as if
there were no immortals at all, you were online to play a set game, and
it might get upgrades every so often. On another, I had an imm interrupt
me while I was solving a quest and try to tell me how to do it, and
that I was doing it wrong... Others, the imms tended to be visible, saying
things now and then, doing events or organizing various things, etc.
So it seems like there are a lot of models that work -- and while
there may be many different models that work, not every model works
One element about the level of imm/player interaction on Legend is the
fact that many players are very engaged with sharing ideas and suggestions
and feedback, and the imms are engaged with responding to it. It's the
sort of thing that could always be better -- lack of time, lack of time!
-- but it's also one of the primary reasons that the imms tend to be
so visible -- there's a pull from players to have interactions.
As far as level of activity in community-building more generally --
expectations differ widely there as well. I think it is most excellent
when interactions develop without immortal involvement -- I just sit
back and cheer and cheer :). On the other hand, imm involvement seems
to be the sort of thing that some people appreciate -- having someone
to get mobs involved, provide other resources & encouragement, help
with publicity, etc. if there's an event planned, for example. We're
also in a good position to be 'noticers of themes' -- a certain kind
of question coming up often, a certain person having a hard time
figuring out how to get started -- since we're not fighting, walking,
talking to mobs, etc. we tend to notice themes emerging on channels,
or in logins -- and all of that boils down to extra services that
wouldn't be provided if we weren't here to provide them.
At any rate, I'm very interested to hear what everyone has to say about
this -- do you want to see more of us, less of us, have different styles
of interactions with us? What sorts of tools might be of use to players
in their own community-building? Self-forming clans were meant to help
with that, what other mechanisms strike you as useful?