Throughout my time in here, except for the implementation of the new
combat skills, every change to classes and areas are detrimental to
my enjoyment of the mud. I can't hit as well as before, I can't heal
as much, I'm taking more damage, I can't have as many charmies, heck
I can't even flee. Why? The prevailing reason I heard for all this
is 'balance'. Balance? One particular class had to have less fun cos
it was having more than another? Why not try empowering weaker
classes rather than taking the steam out of what's cooking? Or at
least, have that firmly in mind before making any changes?
I understand that balance is a perpetual process, but hey, I think
we've hit balance-nirvana. It used to be that London snipers were hot.
And then later everyone wanted a str mage. And then druids. Now, I can
say that all classes are equal, cos they all suck. (Why can't we have,
as another mud in mudconnector claims, 'at least three classes that
boasts to be the best' ?) And why has this to be? I heard it was to
keep up the challenge, but why do I have to be penalised for getting
more skilled and efficient? I learn how to play a particular class to
make levelling easier, not harder. Sure, stagnation is a problem too
but some I would prefer stagnation to deficit growth, while others
will outgrow the mud no matter what. People will still leave. More
importantly, creating new toys to play with such as new classes,
new hometowns, new spells, and well, new skills is the positive step
forward, not adding hps to mobs and making hunt slower.
And the impression that I get from Q&As is that the imms welcome
discussions, but have already made up their minds on important issues.
Last time I attended I felt like I was on the psychiatrist couch prattling
away while the shrinks are sneaking out for a meal. How about making
a game -for- the players, instead of -to- the players? The only changes
to the game which came out Q&A and player ideas that I'm aware
of are cosmetic. I can't speak for others but so far, the staff's idea
of fun has not resonated with me. (Sidenote: When you're captaining a
ship, you can't really claim to be a passenger.)
The whole point of my post is pitching for players and imms to -add- to
the game, instead of taking away from it. Why make it poorer when it can
Resentful about gameplay, but not really caring anyway
Wednesday, October 29 2003, 05:00PM
I agree its kind of sad, people learn how to use something really well
maybe even abuse it, so it gets gimped. And then we find a new way, and
that gets gimped. It's like the riaa and thier battle against music piracy
everytime the imms gimp one tactic, we will just find another. Every time
they crack down on something like kazaa, 10 more programs have sprung up.
This is fine and all that except, think of the newbies!
The way we are heading, eventually only expert players will even be able
to kill mice on this mud. Fine, whatever, we can all deal, but a new player
is gonna look at these changes, like wimpy not existing at all, and be like
what is with this crazy place?!
I think lelldorin has some good points, I think the imms will read it
and ignore it, or disagree and ignore it, or deep down realize he is right
and still ignore it. But I can honestly say that for me...I don't care.
Maybe if I cared about legend as a game at all, I would care, but I haven't
enjoyed playing legend in umm...well, since after my first month here.
I just like the people here so I come back. So it makes no difference to
me if we become a mush, a moo, or just a damn chat room.
Gimp us all you want, remove pk, who cares. Not me,
Thursday, October 30 2003, 04:09AM
Many of the changes made in the last three or four years haven't
resonated well with me either. Heck, I'm still sore about the changes
made to hit/dam gear... Wimpy was a regular blow too, but wimpy
was a BUG. ("Bugs" on here are like "terrorists" in RL. What's
a bug? Something the immortal(s) decided not to like.) I suggested
wimpy be given an award for being the oldest bug on Legend, but
I don't believe it was. There are still a few goodies left in the
cookie jar--which I treasure. When these are taken away, I suppose
I'll quit. (Although these are trade secrets, I'll let you in on
one: the ability to move from room to room, lag free--which really
is quite ridiculous. Surely, there should be lag when you move
from room to room--should there not? Can a person travel across the
globe in a matter of seconds? No! There should be lag when you
move--and lots of it. It should take at least ten minutes if not
chant vina jiv mrti ex hour.) I won't be surprised when it takes five newbies to kill
(oops.) newbies to kill a mouse. Heck, why not? "Mouse run
forming at crossroads." XP running--at all levels--should be an
epic adventure, no? Even the food costs more now! And why shouldn't
it? Bandages should cost more too. Everything should cost more!
Ok. Maybe I'm indulging in a lil' cynicism. The changes haven't
been THAT bad. Some of them have been a tad flabbergasting, though.
The ever-growing legions of assisting mobs, for instance.
Little mobs that assist each other are bothersome, annoying.
Big mobs that assist little mobs are worse. A while back, one of my
lowbies got snuffed out by a level 50 mob that assisted the
under-level-ten mob that he attacked. Insane.
In short, I agree. I agree, agree, agree. I couldn't agree more!
I never post to this board--lest my lust for balance wreak havoc
on the MUD--but I felt it was my civic duty to AGREE.
Thank you, Lelldorin, for your more tactful, better-stated opinions.
-Sheriff Moo Montana
Thursday, October 30 2003, 07:55AM
heh, this is pretty much how i summed things up about 3 years ago,
and 2 years ago, and last year.
the few elite imms who do make the key decisions have never really
been interested in making a dynamic, fun game for players, well
at least not in my opinion -- they have an idea of how they want
gameplay to be, in regards to time spent and risk vs. reward --
and they continue to push the mud in that direction.
the problem is, its text based mob killing, and with games like
everquest and daoc, well, how much fun is that?
you can't beat the social aspect here and the long time players that
make up much of the community - just remember what you are logging
in to play: a chat room with a rpg backdrop - add to that the pk
system which is quite enjoyable, and thats why players are here.
why not have a marauder like npc in ever major starting town?
or, why are so many quests one time only? why not let players
repeat them (for the reward item, not the xp)?
or, why make over-rent cause you to lose all your gear, why not
write a function that starts deleting your highest rent items until
you are under (in the case of autorent), and why not when you type
'save' or get autosaved, if you are over rent, go back to your last
i could go on and on... but i have before and i know the immorts
thoughts on these subjects won't be changing.
Friday, October 31 2003, 12:00AM
yeah me agree too. all thems do is downgrade downgrade downgrade...
first hunt was level based, then perc based, (a reasonable
but still annoying change), then it got huge lag on.
now they thinking of making it so you cant hunt unless they've been
in that room, and no hunt over water! If you do that i want my pracs
back. ALL i use hunt for is finding mobs in area's i hardly ever go.
Finding my way home when i dont have a recall scroll etc. I dont
PK, and even with those changes hunt would be virtually useless in PK
cross a river and they lose the trail.
as thems say, this is a game, and in my experiences, games you
play tend to be fun. Or at least TRY to be fun.
As a newbie hunt let me find my way around and EXPLORE. The thing
thems immies wants you to do. You get rid of being able to hunt
mobs then i think most newbies will get lost (like they regularly do)
hunt a mob (thats only 3 rooms away mind you) find no trail
wander around a bit getting more lost, decide game is boring
then LD and never return.
In anycase, I know the imms dont really care about my opinion...
Friday, October 31 2003, 07:13AM
I have to agree, the mud has perpetually been getting slower
and slower on things. Making long repops and slowing down skills
and abilities leaves you sitting around more often then not
doing nothing. Which is BORING and really leaves a bitter taste
in most peoples mouths. Immortals have tried to give reasons for
this but bottom line those reasons have always seemed, well,
without a great deal of merrit shall we say. Sure they are logical
and maybe there is a point in there somewhere, but comparitive to
the problem the point becomes somewhat mute. Will these posts
change anything? As most have allready said, don't bet on it.
I'm sure immortals will say ohh people have said these same things
for years now and they keep coming back.
And im sure some will jump on the bandwagon and say how much they
adore this mud and everything about it. To these people I say great
continue to have fun and enjoy yourselves. But there are a significant
amount of the playerbase who are scratching their heads and wondering
just what these changes and some of the charistics of the mud have
to do with having fun. and to that I have to agree that they seem
to take away from the fun.
Personally, people keep coming back for some reason, and short of a
significant number of people just up and leaving, the immortals will
continue to feel secure in their views of how this mud should
operate and you will continue to see more of the same. And as they
the immortals love to say, This is not a democracy so deal with it or
Ohh, my final thought, just because something seems realistic or
makes sense in the real world, does not mean it is suitable for a GAME!
Saturday, November 01 2003, 04:51AM
I as well, have to agree with this standpoint on things.
For near 5 years now I have been a member of the community
from the time I was 14 years old. Personally, I look back and realize
it is rather simple to amuse a 14 year old boy, and still, I am amused
with the mud, and find times when I can genuinely enjoy it, however...
for 5 years, I have enjoyed certain classes, I have played probably
as many, or more classes, than most people here have...and honestly
I feel that the idea the imm's have of "balance" is so pathetically
off kilter, that its not worth mentioning as something they strive for
at this time.
Within my stock of character, I can boast near 10 sniper characters,
most of them dex snipers. I go through this mud daily, with one
character or another, in mobkill and PKill, and I do not see the
"balance" idea in effect at all. Mages, will destroy a sniper,
fighters, will generally destroy a sniper, healers, will destroy a
sniper, and mobs will destroy a sniper.
Contained within this game are items that, when they were put in
were honestly, useless as far as Im concerned, items to resist
attacks from certain classes. The items make me personally flinch
away, because what I see of this mud is a world where mobkill will
require these items to be a regular part of your eq list, and PKill...
well, they already are a regular part of PKill, sadly.
Continuing to downgrade classes, because they contain one stat that you
consider "powerful" is folly, a dex sniper can paralyze with a backstab
a fighter can paralyze with a warcry, and a mage can worse for wear with
a stun, these skills will, logically, balance one another out, they are
not likely to happen every time you use them, therefor, well set for each
"class". A sniper can -=Gasp=- snipe, a fighter can -=Gasp=- fight, and a
mage can -=Gasp=- deal damage, and heal, through casting. You now have a
basis for each "
Granted a basis is not enough, so we get into the skills that makes legend
somewhat unique, such as tumble, which has of late, become useless.
Before the introduction of topple, mages already have the no-tumble skill
to work around the skill that kept most dexies alive, from time to time.
Then topple was introduced...not a bad idea for a skill....but if you want
reality and logic contained within your game, if that is what you're striving
for, Id like for you to take this scenario into mind
Character A is a dex sniper, good at tumbling, moving quickly, a thief like type
Character B is a fighter, good at dealing damage, breaking through his
Character A realises this, so Character A stays very alert through combat
Character B notices Character A, Character B topples
Now, Character A is a master of staying on the defensive, he's alert
he's paying very close attention.....now, logically, Character A would
Character B grabs your legs and pulls them out from under you, you land
on your back, lightly armored, unencumbered, thinking, you'd roll back
and out of the way....to your feet....a tumble-like maneuver...or so one
would think -=Shrug=-
And before I end this.....I dont mean to insult anyone, this is how I
logically see the situation play out in my mind...this is how I see the
mud, I still do love the mud, I will always love the mud, but the
continuous destruction of player characters, certain classes in particular
and upgrading of mobs...is not for the better. You may look to enforce
grouping, but not all of us want to group all the time, sometimes, its nice
to go off by yourself and just have some random fun, which is already
impossible with certain classes, and slowly is becoming impossible with
the remaining....please give the words we speak in this post some thought
Sunday, November 02 2003, 12:53AM
I also agree. If you are going for realism then why would an assassin type (sniper), who knows he is going to shoot the target, not be able to run away from them.
If you are going to change wimpy, you should have to remove auto rush as well, or at least make it have the same lag as flee.
Sunday, November 02 2003, 03:59AM
oooh, go cheap boy!
you say them not do nothin till lots peps leave
well, why dont lots peps leave? might let imms know EXACTLY how we
feel about this. Now we can leave permanantly, leave until they upgrade
something, or just have a prostest day/week/hr type thing.
Personally I think a protest day would be most appropriate, letting
the imms know how we feel and that we are serious in the matter
while not disturbing your mudding fun too much.
Going buy the latest LT, mon had highest avg of players...
so, why not monday week (10 november) everyone that agrees
that the imms should stop downgrading everything just doesnt
log on. Nothing more nothing less.
all those in favor, append!
Sunday, November 02 2003, 12:33PM
I'm all for some sort of display. I'd be willing to boycott for a day.
But then again, I don't log on much anymore, mainly for the reasons
Primo, who used to spend lots of time here...
Sunday, November 02 2003, 12:55PM
Ah the good old days.. I long for them too. Let's go back to the
time when everything was dex based.. when that expensive housing
wasn't an option and you carried everything you owned on your back.
When you died you had to find someone to praise you up to 100 prestige
because otherwise you'd be over rent..
I loved that heady time when all the druids had to have 100 spirit
because otherwise augment didn't work.. when nobody could tumble
a stun, and that's what everyone pretty much used because rudh
You're right.. things were much better in the old days.. and nothing
new is ever added.
Thanks for the great walk down memory lane..
Sunday, November 02 2003, 02:20PM
Acutally, I had more fun then than now. But that's just me. I'd
love it if they would give someone a really old version of the code
and someone would open up a new mud based on that code. I'd play
there every day again.
Sunday, November 02 2003, 02:34PM
Some great posts here and I must add my 2cents to the pile.
I must say, I agree with pretty much everything that has been
said by the players here. Recent changes, while some have been
beneficial (I enjoyed the fighter improvements) a lot have simply
made the mud -harder-. Solo xping just becomes more and more
of a chore, and I have given up on it pretty much completely on
my characters. Personally, I prefer to gain my xp this way. I do
not like having to rely on group runs and friends as my only way
of gaining xp efficiently.
A few specifics:
Topple- Insane skill, I find it atrociously powerful when fighting
against it. The only counter seems to be having a high strength,
but even my strength chars have trouble with it. Although I can
simply use topple to counter topple.
Wimpy- Had much more impact in mobkill than pk (correct me if
I'm wrong, I found max wimpy to be a disadvantage in pk), as
the wimpy change is largely responsible for killing solo xp. I
have seen this other places, were a socalled bug' that has been
in the mud since it's beginning is removed and there are very
large consequences from it. Unintended or not, I just can't buy
that a change like that is purely because it was a bug.
General changes that have forced characters to be more
specialized have also bugged me, like putting in a (relatively
high) min perc and such. I find myself struggling to make a
original character that has not been played to death. Sure there
are hundreds of small variations but I feel once I have a
character that covers a broad class, making another similar one is
redundant. One of the things I like (liked) best about legend is
the ability to construct a personalized, interesting character that
hopefully nobody else has made or seen.
Huginn- I do not think they are referring to changes like that,
obviously getting away from dexmud was a good thing. You
seemed to miss the point, which is how much things have
degenerated recently, although this has happened before I think
this is a bit beyond the usual you changed something
wahwahwah postings'. It seems that no matter what good things
are added (new skills) something else gets really fouled up. (Solo
Is this really the way changes should be implemented?
It is the legend way apparently.
Shivan, long winded grendel.
If this post comes out right, I will be stunned.
Sunday, November 02 2003, 10:08PM
Quick comment from the sideline (I don't have a lot of time to get
into details right now, sorry):
Could it be that rather than solo xping having become too difficult,
group xping has become too easy? I mean, I see people hit 50 in a
couple of days and redeeming left and right from a few certain areas,
and the same time, some of those people can't find Sherwood from
Richard, so to speak. Just a thought.
Monday, November 03 2003, 05:56AM
Kae....Im not understanding how this has relevance to what the
players are talking about...however...I will try to answer for
I spend perhaps 7-12 hours on legend daily, of those hours,
5-10 are usually spent mobkilling, solo mind you, with any alt
you can think of, 2 are spent PKilling.
I have 4 level 50 alts, in 5 years, 2 with any redeems at all,
1 of them having had 2, the other 1. Leveling to 50 in days...
thats with help..yes, if you're running 3 or 4 people in klein
or salem, its going to be easy...this is a logical assumption..
those mobs arent meant for 4 man groups...And if other areas
seem easy with groups, its like Lelldorin said, we're becoming
efficient, but you'll yank that shortly I figure, finding out
how and removing it. Doesnt matter anyway...As far as finding
sherwood from richard
From: thats no one's fault but their
own, I spent my first 2 months on this game exploring, I may
not have gone far then, but I got the basics, and that was
enough to get me moving, by myself, even then, as a newbie.
Solo XPing is difficult, plain and simple, leveling to 50
is not a few days venture alone, only with groups...and
redeeming....I dunno who you're seeing redeeming left and
right....but if you are...well, wouldnt you're alts redeem
easier knowing those areas....I know you're alts need to
From: But you admitted you like running solo...
could that be the problem?
Falenn, a greedy bastard, who just wants to have some fun
Monday, November 03 2003, 06:54AM
I'd be happy to admit that I prefer to xp run solo. In fact, I
do that 99% of my time, not being much of a group person. There,
feel better now? :)
What I meant is, over the last couple of years, some (obviously not all)
players have come to expect to reach level 50 and redeem like nuts in
extremely short time. Because of this, standards for 'having a hard time'
is obviously dropping.
As far as I'm concerned, there needs to be areas and things to do
for people who don't feel attracted to the spam level of big groups
and/or live in time zones with less players around. You can count me
into both of those, btw. That does not, hwoever, change the fact that
Legend is _primarily_ targeted against groups. Nor does it change the
fact that a lot of newer players don't feel the need to really explore
because well, as long as they can find the French beach or the cross-
roads, they don't really _need_ to.
I don't think it's circumstantial, however, that the people complaining
here are mostly older players who were not 'raised' in this fashion.
To me, that indicates that we've made it a tad too easy to get big in
groups and a tad too difficult on the soloing side. That is of course
my personal opinion, not that of the staff as a whole, yada yada.
Rather than reminiscing about the Good Old, let's look at what it
is that makes Legend dull to some of us these days and maybe work out some
ideas to fix some of the issues, or at least address them. Contrary
to what a certain number of people think, the immortal staff does read this
board, and public opinion does matter.
Monday, November 03 2003, 07:03AM
Umm. I just wanna point out a couple of thingies that seem to have been
overlooked or misrepresented here.
I dun wanna comment on solo xp running, cause a lot of that depends on both
your skill level AND your chartype. Some characters just aren't made for
it, some are. (Eek, seems I did comment squee!)
What I do wanna say is, this bringing up of how things are 'much harder'
for 'new players' and should be looked into...I don't agree that they're
I actually think they've gotten a lot easier in many ways. Wha ways?
- More easily accessible good puny weapons especially if you start
in certain hometowns.
- Donation boxes
- Stashes of gold you can stumble on and go oooh hey, now I know where
to get rich! (Okie well it isn't a huge amount but to a real puny it
is fairly sizable.)
- Tamer crocodiles
- Tamer boars
- Warning signs on tuff areas
- More general +1 to +5 stat gear that is on mobs even true new punies
can kill, and get a sense of accomplishment from finding said gear.
- Mobs haven't gotten harder at lower levels. If you're kick/fleeing
footpads, you aren't a true puny anyway. Wimpy changes are pretty much
irrelevant. What about those muds that lag you per command and don't let
you clear? Me, I've had punies squashed that way in those places cause
imma overenthusiastic about magic missiling sommink.
There's lots of udder stuff but being featherbrained I canna fink of it
atta moment and anyway, this post is spammy enuff soo...
Monday, November 03 2003, 11:42AM
Interesting post...and to everyones utter amazement....no comment. :)
Monday, November 03 2003, 01:37PM
Kae mentioned what to do to maybe make xp-running less boring - with
the currently available graphical games out there (EQ, DAOC, AC, etc)
I don't think a text based game can ever compete. Just my 2 cents...
But since muds are (generally) free and easy to connect to, people still
play them for the fun/social aspects. Would be nice to see the things
that can get us past the "time-sink" part of the game to doing the "fun"
Monday, November 03 2003, 04:54PM
Time for my 2 cents as well.
I've been here a considerable amount of time, I've seen drastic changes,
I've seen the old DexMUD as they call it, whatever. The fact is we
need to get out of the past and stop comparing current legend to the
way old things worked. Legend has been, and always will be, a quite
unique mud. Now, back in the past it was considered a class-less mud,
as shivan said it was fun to find a class noone else used, or maybe
haven't even seen. Well, thats dead and gone. Instead of comparing
it to those days, we just need to accept it for what it is, and call
legend a class based mud on all of those mudsites out there.
Now, new changes. Sure, you've given fighters more of a chance,
you added new skills, new spells. Now, answer this for me:
I'm a mage, I've gotten nothing new in ages. All I see on the
boards for mage changes, is X mob(s) are now going to kick the
living snot out of charmies. Hows that balancing MY class? I'm
just getting weaker and weaker, and mobs are becoming more and
more of a hassle. I've made a lot of XP, I've run a lot of
group areas. This character was originally not even intended
to be in the main rotation of my played alts. It was a character
intended to help DT victims and friends with gear or experience.
However, I've become attached to what this character could do.
Now, mobs that were easy, and mobs that carry decent equipment
are getting upgrades versus charmies. Generic level 50 mobs
even, like Klein shopkeepers. They don't even give any amazing
amount of experience to me compared to other things I can solo,
but they deal extra damage to my charmies, so much that a
650 doppelganger can't even tank one with a full army and myself
hitting. Thats kinda sad.
Solo XP. Heh. is there such a thing anymore?
All I see is people begging and pleading to leech my big area runs
because leveling is such a painful process. I find that I can
get from 1-25 ish easy enough, but anything after that solo takes
me FOREVER. I have a level 32 character thats a half create mage.
He has approximately 750K to level. I gain approximately 8-12K a
kill solo, because I haven't learned to exploit any big mobs that
might be easy and give me a lot of experience. 8-12K a mob, and
I can kill maybe 10 if I get lucky.
That means I have to rest 8 or 9 times, even more sometimes, just
to get a level. Factor in that sleeping all of my HP to full takes
a good 20 minutes, that means it'd take me probably 4 hours in average
to get a level, and that is if I strictly XP run, and don't
socialize and chat, and I always sleep and not listen to channels
when regenning. If thats your idea of fun, well, hahahahaha.
I do enjoy Legend still, maybe not as much as I used to but, I've made
a lot of friends here, and became attached to my characters because
I have put so much effort and time into them.
People hitting level 50 in a few days? I haven't seen that happen.
Once I leveled a char to 50 in 6 days.
That character was a str/iron will/surgeon. How did I level to
50 in 6 days? Well, I made a character I designed from grouping.
Get operate at level 5, get people to kill klein while you heal,
you hit 25 in no time. Run PD and SL a lot, get from 25-highbie
status in no time. Throw in the fact I could heal myself and
fight, and it got me XP in the solo department when noone felt
like running klein or salem, or to a bigger extent SL or PD.
Healer characters, when grouped, fly through levels. I'm sure
it's always gonna happen that way, until the healing class
becomes useless with more gimping changes. Already the strain
of 10 mana and 10 moves instead of 5/5 are being felt, but
still healers can level fast. Whats the next step? Making an
operate cost the same as an augment?
This is getting kind of long, so I'll make my final point:
Legend IS fun, but continuously getting less fun with changes
wimping classes, and preventing jack-of-all-trades so to speak.
Specialization - Strong in one aspect.
Originality - Not strong in any one aspect, but mediocre at a
few. I'd prefer origanility, personally. However, originality
is becoming less and less of an option around here.
-Zedikae's Player I spose, since it comes from my experiences with
almost any possible character type here, and have 30 or more
Monday, November 03 2003, 09:09PM
I think Zedikae hit the nail on the head -- well said.
Friday, November 07 2003, 04:05AM
Moo, you are funny!
Saturday, June 19 2004, 11:04PM
Hell, I have to point out, for the little I do know about various
foreign languages, I've learned from Legend, sadly enough. I like
the smattering of words here and there. If you can't figure it
out, screw ya. I like it fine, and from what I see, a far
majority like it too.
Rock on, builders. If it wasn't for you, I wouldn't know that
Kleinstadt means, 'Little Town'. If people can't be bothered to
look at the descriptions of things, that's their fault. I
know that when I look at an 'Ein Kind' in Klein, I know that it's
a child just by looking at it. Hell the word 'kindergarten'
should have been a dead giveaway.
Guess people just don't have insight like they used to. Must
be the dumbing down of children due to T.V. and internet