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Just bored. Well, really bored.|U6

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Posted by Lelldorin on 06/19

Throughout my time in here, except for the implementation of the new combat skills, every change to classes and areas are detrimental to my enjoyment of the mud. I can't hit as well as before, I can't heal as much, I'm taking more damage, I can't have as many charmies, heck I can't even flee. Why? The prevailing reason I heard for all this is 'balance'. Balance? One particular class had to have less fun cos it was having more than another? Why not try empowering weaker classes rather than taking the steam out of what's cooking? Or at least, have that firmly in mind before making any changes? I understand that balance is a perpetual process, but hey, I think we've hit balance-nirvana. It used to be that London snipers were hot. And then later everyone wanted a str mage. And then druids. Now, I can say that all classes are equal, cos they all suck. (Why can't we have, as another mud in mudconnector claims, 'at least three classes that boasts to be the best' ?) And why has this to be? I heard it was to keep up the challenge, but why do I have to be penalised for getting more skilled and efficient? I learn how to play a particular class to make levelling easier, not harder. Sure, stagnation is a problem too but some I would prefer stagnation to deficit growth, while others will outgrow the mud no matter what. People will still leave. More importantly, creating new toys to play with such as new classes, new hometowns, new spells, and well, new skills is the positive step forward, not adding hps to mobs and making hunt slower. And the impression that I get from Q&As is that the imms welcome discussions, but have already made up their minds on important issues. Last time I attended I felt like I was on the psychiatrist couch prattling away while the shrinks are sneaking out for a meal. How about making a game -for- the players, instead of -to- the players? The only changes to the game which came out Q&A and player ideas that I'm aware of are cosmetic. I can't speak for others but so far, the staff's idea of fun has not resonated with me. (Sidenote: When you're captaining a ship, you can't really claim to be a passenger.) The whole point of my post is pitching for players and imms to -add- to the game, instead of taking away from it. Why make it poorer when it can be richer? Lelldorin Resentful about gameplay, but not really caring anyway |U6

From: Sana Wednesday, October 29 2003, 05:00PM I agree its kind of sad, people learn how to use something really well maybe even abuse it, so it gets gimped. And then we find a new way, and that gets gimped. It's like the riaa and thier battle against music piracy everytime the imms gimp one tactic, we will just find another. Every time they crack down on something like kazaa, 10 more programs have sprung up. This is fine and all that except, think of the newbies! The way we are heading, eventually only expert players will even be able to kill mice on this mud. Fine, whatever, we can all deal, but a new player is gonna look at these changes, like wimpy not existing at all, and be like what is with this crazy place?! I think lelldorin has some good points, I think the imms will read it and ignore it, or disagree and ignore it, or deep down realize he is right and still ignore it. But I can honestly say that for me...I don't care. Maybe if I cared about legend as a game at all, I would care, but I haven't enjoyed playing legend in umm...well, since after my first month here. I just like the people here so I come back. So it makes no difference to me if we become a mush, a moo, or just a damn chat room. Gimp us all you want, remove pk, who cares. Not me, |U6

From: Moo Thursday, October 30 2003, 04:09AM Many of the changes made in the last three or four years haven't resonated well with me either. Heck, I'm still sore about the changes made to hit/dam gear... Wimpy was a regular blow too, but wimpy was a BUG. ("Bugs" on here are like "terrorists" in RL. What's a bug? Something the immortal(s) decided not to like.) I suggested wimpy be given an award for being the oldest bug on Legend, but I don't believe it was. There are still a few goodies left in the cookie jar--which I treasure. When these are taken away, I suppose I'll quit. (Although these are trade secrets, I'll let you in on one: the ability to move from room to room, lag free--which really is quite ridiculous. Surely, there should be lag when you move from room to room--should there not? Can a person travel across the globe in a matter of seconds? No! There should be lag when you move--and lots of it. It should take at least ten minutes if not chant vina jiv mrti ex hour.) I won't be surprised when it takes five newbies to kill (oops.) newbies to kill a mouse. Heck, why not? "Mouse run forming at crossroads." XP running--at all levels--should be an epic adventure, no? Even the food costs more now! And why shouldn't it? Bandages should cost more too. Everything should cost more! Ok. Maybe I'm indulging in a lil' cynicism. The changes haven't been THAT bad. Some of them have been a tad flabbergasting, though. The ever-growing legions of assisting mobs, for instance. Little mobs that assist each other are bothersome, annoying. Big mobs that assist little mobs are worse. A while back, one of my lowbies got snuffed out by a level 50 mob that assisted the under-level-ten mob that he attacked. Insane. In short, I agree. I agree, agree, agree. I couldn't agree more! I never post to this board--lest my lust for balance wreak havoc on the MUD--but I felt it was my civic duty to AGREE. Thank you, Lelldorin, for your more tactful, better-stated opinions. -Sheriff Moo Montana |U6

From: Vyper Thursday, October 30 2003, 07:55AM heh, this is pretty much how i summed things up about 3 years ago, and 2 years ago, and last year. the few elite imms who do make the key decisions have never really been interested in making a dynamic, fun game for players, well at least not in my opinion -- they have an idea of how they want gameplay to be, in regards to time spent and risk vs. reward -- and they continue to push the mud in that direction. the problem is, its text based mob killing, and with games like everquest and daoc, well, how much fun is that? you can't beat the social aspect here and the long time players that make up much of the community - just remember what you are logging in to play: a chat room with a rpg backdrop - add to that the pk system which is quite enjoyable, and thats why players are here. an example: why not have a marauder like npc in ever major starting town? or, why are so many quests one time only? why not let players repeat them (for the reward item, not the xp)? or, why make over-rent cause you to lose all your gear, why not write a function that starts deleting your highest rent items until you are under (in the case of autorent), and why not when you type 'save' or get autosaved, if you are over rent, go back to your last successful save? i could go on and on... but i have before and i know the immorts thoughts on these subjects won't be changing. |U6

From: Archaon Friday, October 31 2003, 12:00AM yeah me agree too. all thems do is downgrade downgrade downgrade... first hunt was level based, then perc based, (a reasonable but still annoying change), then it got huge lag on. now they thinking of making it so you cant hunt unless they've been in that room, and no hunt over water! If you do that i want my pracs back. ALL i use hunt for is finding mobs in area's i hardly ever go. Finding my way home when i dont have a recall scroll etc. I dont PK, and even with those changes hunt would be virtually useless in PK cross a river and they lose the trail. as thems say, this is a game, and in my experiences, games you play tend to be fun. Or at least TRY to be fun. As a newbie hunt let me find my way around and EXPLORE. The thing thems immies wants you to do. You get rid of being able to hunt mobs then i think most newbies will get lost (like they regularly do) hunt a mob (thats only 3 rooms away mind you) find no trail wander around a bit getting more lost, decide game is boring then LD and never return. In anycase, I know the imms dont really care about my opinion... - Arch |U6

From: Cheap Friday, October 31 2003, 07:13AM I have to agree, the mud has perpetually been getting slower and slower on things. Making long repops and slowing down skills and abilities leaves you sitting around more often then not doing nothing. Which is BORING and really leaves a bitter taste in most peoples mouths. Immortals have tried to give reasons for this but bottom line those reasons have always seemed, well, without a great deal of merrit shall we say. Sure they are logical and maybe there is a point in there somewhere, but comparitive to the problem the point becomes somewhat mute. Will these posts change anything? As most have allready said, don't bet on it. I'm sure immortals will say ohh people have said these same things for years now and they keep coming back. And im sure some will jump on the bandwagon and say how much they adore this mud and everything about it. To these people I say great continue to have fun and enjoy yourselves. But there are a significant amount of the playerbase who are scratching their heads and wondering just what these changes and some of the charistics of the mud have to do with having fun. and to that I have to agree that they seem to take away from the fun. Personally, people keep coming back for some reason, and short of a significant number of people just up and leaving, the immortals will continue to feel secure in their views of how this mud should operate and you will continue to see more of the same. And as they the immortals love to say, This is not a democracy so deal with it or leave. Ohh, my final thought, just because something seems realistic or makes sense in the real world, does not mean it is suitable for a GAME! Cheap |U6

From: Falenn Saturday, November 01 2003, 04:51AM I as well, have to agree with this standpoint on things. For near 5 years now I have been a member of the community from the time I was 14 years old. Personally, I look back and realize it is rather simple to amuse a 14 year old boy, and still, I am amused with the mud, and find times when I can genuinely enjoy it, however... for 5 years, I have enjoyed certain classes, I have played probably as many, or more classes, than most people here have...and honestly I feel that the idea the imm's have of "balance" is so pathetically off kilter, that its not worth mentioning as something they strive for at this time. Within my stock of character, I can boast near 10 sniper characters, most of them dex snipers. I go through this mud daily, with one character or another, in mobkill and PKill, and I do not see the "balance" idea in effect at all. Mages, will destroy a sniper, fighters, will generally destroy a sniper, healers, will destroy a sniper, and mobs will destroy a sniper. Contained within this game are items that, when they were put in were honestly, useless as far as Im concerned, items to resist attacks from certain classes. The items make me personally flinch away, because what I see of this mud is a world where mobkill will require these items to be a regular part of your eq list, and PKill... well, they already are a regular part of PKill, sadly. Continuing to downgrade classes, because they contain one stat that you consider "powerful" is folly, a dex sniper can paralyze with a backstab a fighter can paralyze with a warcry, and a mage can worse for wear with a stun, these skills will, logically, balance one another out, they are not likely to happen every time you use them, therefor, well set for each "class". A sniper can -=Gasp=- snipe, a fighter can -=Gasp=- fight, and a mage can -=Gasp=- deal damage, and heal, through casting. You now have a basis for each " "class". Granted a basis is not enough, so we get into the skills that makes legend somewhat unique, such as tumble, which has of late, become useless. Before the introduction of topple, mages already have the no-tumble skill to work around the skill that kept most dexies alive, from time to time. Then topple was introduced...not a bad idea for a skill....but if you want reality and logic contained within your game, if that is what you're striving for, Id like for you to take this scenario into mind Character A is a dex sniper, good at tumbling, moving quickly, a thief like type Character B is a fighter, good at dealing damage, breaking through his opponents defenses Character A realises this, so Character A stays very alert through combat Character B notices Character A, Character B topples Now, Character A is a master of staying on the defensive, he's alert he's paying very close attention.....now, logically, Character A would do thus Character B grabs your legs and pulls them out from under you, you land on your back, lightly armored, unencumbered, thinking, you'd roll back and out of the way....to your feet....a tumble-like maneuver...or so one would think -=Shrug=- And before I end this.....I dont mean to insult anyone, this is how I logically see the situation play out in my mind...this is how I see the mud, I still do love the mud, I will always love the mud, but the continuous destruction of player characters, certain classes in particular and upgrading of mobs...is not for the better. You may look to enforce grouping, but not all of us want to group all the time, sometimes, its nice to go off by yourself and just have some random fun, which is already impossible with certain classes, and slowly is becoming impossible with the remaining....please give the words we speak in this post some thought Falenn |U6

From: Rek Sunday, November 02 2003, 12:53AM I also agree. If you are going for realism then why would an assassin type (sniper), who knows he is going to shoot the target, not be able to run away from them. If you are going to change wimpy, you should have to remove auto rush as well, or at least make it have the same lag as flee. |U6

From: Archaon Sunday, November 02 2003, 03:59AM oooh, go cheap boy! you say them not do nothin till lots peps leave well, why dont lots peps leave? might let imms know EXACTLY how we feel about this. Now we can leave permanantly, leave until they upgrade something, or just have a prostest day/week/hr type thing. Personally I think a protest day would be most appropriate, letting the imms know how we feel and that we are serious in the matter while not disturbing your mudding fun too much. Going buy the latest LT, mon had highest avg of players... so, why not monday week (10 november) everyone that agrees that the imms should stop downgrading everything just doesnt log on. Nothing more nothing less. all those in favor, append! Archaon |U6

From: Primo Sunday, November 02 2003, 12:33PM I'm all for some sort of display. I'd be willing to boycott for a day. But then again, I don't log on much anymore, mainly for the reasons previously listed. Primo, who used to spend lots of time here... |U6

From: Huginn Sunday, November 02 2003, 12:55PM Ah the good old days.. I long for them too. Let's go back to the time when everything was dex based.. when that expensive housing wasn't an option and you carried everything you owned on your back. When you died you had to find someone to praise you up to 100 prestige because otherwise you'd be over rent.. I loved that heady time when all the druids had to have 100 spirit because otherwise augment didn't work.. when nobody could tumble a stun, and that's what everyone pretty much used because rudh didn't exist. You're right.. things were much better in the old days.. and nothing new is ever added. Thanks for the great walk down memory lane.. Huginn |U6

From: Primo Sunday, November 02 2003, 02:20PM Acutally, I had more fun then than now. But that's just me. I'd love it if they would give someone a really old version of the code and someone would open up a new mud based on that code. I'd play there every day again. |U6

From: Shivan Sunday, November 02 2003, 02:34PM Some great posts here and I must add my 2cents to the pile. I must say, I agree with pretty much everything that has been said by the players here. Recent changes, while some have been beneficial (I enjoyed the fighter improvements) a lot have simply made the mud -harder-. Solo xping just becomes more and more of a chore, and I have given up on it pretty much completely on my characters. Personally, I prefer to gain my xp this way. I do not like having to rely on group runs and friends as my only way of gaining xp efficiently. A few specifics: Topple- Insane skill, I find it atrociously powerful when fighting against it. The only counter seems to be having a high strength, but even my strength chars have trouble with it. Although I can simply use topple to counter topple. Wimpy- Had much more impact in mobkill than pk (correct me if I'm wrong, I found max wimpy to be a disadvantage in pk), as the wimpy change is largely responsible for killing solo xp. I have seen this other places, were a socalled bug' that has been in the mud since it's beginning is removed and there are very large consequences from it. Unintended or not, I just can't buy that a change like that is purely because it was a bug. General changes that have forced characters to be more specialized have also bugged me, like putting in a (relatively high) min perc and such. I find myself struggling to make a original character that has not been played to death. Sure there are hundreds of small variations but I feel once I have a character that covers a broad class, making another similar one is redundant. One of the things I like (liked) best about legend is the ability to construct a personalized, interesting character that hopefully nobody else has made or seen. Huginn- I do not think they are referring to changes like that, obviously getting away from dexmud was a good thing. You seemed to miss the point, which is how much things have degenerated recently, although this has happened before I think this is a bit beyond the usual you changed something wahwahwah postings'. It seems that no matter what good things are added (new skills) something else gets really fouled up. (Solo xp) Is this really the way changes should be implemented? It is the legend way apparently. Shivan, long winded grendel. If this post comes out right, I will be stunned. |U6

From: Kae Sunday, November 02 2003, 10:08PM Quick comment from the sideline (I don't have a lot of time to get into details right now, sorry): Could it be that rather than solo xping having become too difficult, group xping has become too easy? I mean, I see people hit 50 in a couple of days and redeeming left and right from a few certain areas, and the same time, some of those people can't find Sherwood from Richard, so to speak. Just a thought. --Darth Kae |U6

From: Falenn Monday, November 03 2003, 05:56AM Kae....Im not understanding how this has relevance to what the players are talking about...however...I will try to answer for you I spend perhaps 7-12 hours on legend daily, of those hours, 5-10 are usually spent mobkilling, solo mind you, with any alt you can think of, 2 are spent PKilling. I have 4 level 50 alts, in 5 years, 2 with any redeems at all, 1 of them having had 2, the other 1. Leveling to 50 in days... thats with help..yes, if you're running 3 or 4 people in klein or salem, its going to be easy...this is a logical assumption.. those mobs arent meant for 4 man groups...And if other areas seem easy with groups, its like Lelldorin said, we're becoming efficient, but you'll yank that shortly I figure, finding out how and removing it. Doesnt matter anyway...As far as finding sherwood from richard

From: snicker

From: thats no one's fault but their own, I spent my first 2 months on this game exploring, I may not have gone far then, but I got the basics, and that was enough to get me moving, by myself, even then, as a newbie. Solo XPing is difficult, plain and simple, leveling to 50 is not a few days venture alone, only with groups...and redeeming....I dunno who you're seeing redeeming left and right....but if you are...well, wouldnt you're alts redeem easier knowing those areas....I know you're alts need to redeem....

From: shrug

From: But you admitted you like running solo... could that be the problem? Falenn, a greedy bastard, who just wants to have some fun |U6

From: Kae Monday, November 03 2003, 06:54AM I'd be happy to admit that I prefer to xp run solo. In fact, I do that 99% of my time, not being much of a group person. There, feel better now? :) What I meant is, over the last couple of years, some (obviously not all) players have come to expect to reach level 50 and redeem like nuts in extremely short time. Because of this, standards for 'having a hard time' is obviously dropping. As far as I'm concerned, there needs to be areas and things to do for people who don't feel attracted to the spam level of big groups and/or live in time zones with less players around. You can count me into both of those, btw. That does not, hwoever, change the fact that Legend is _primarily_ targeted against groups. Nor does it change the fact that a lot of newer players don't feel the need to really explore because well, as long as they can find the French beach or the cross- roads, they don't really _need_ to. I don't think it's circumstantial, however, that the people complaining here are mostly older players who were not 'raised' in this fashion. To me, that indicates that we've made it a tad too easy to get big in groups and a tad too difficult on the soloing side. That is of course my personal opinion, not that of the staff as a whole, yada yada. Rather than reminiscing about the Good Old, let's look at what it is that makes Legend dull to some of us these days and maybe work out some ideas to fix some of the issues, or at least address them. Contrary to what a certain number of people think, the immortal staff does read this board, and public opinion does matter. --Darth Kae skim discussion |U6

From: Wren Monday, November 03 2003, 07:03AM Umm. I just wanna point out a couple of thingies that seem to have been overlooked or misrepresented here. I dun wanna comment on solo xp running, cause a lot of that depends on both your skill level AND your chartype. Some characters just aren't made for it, some are. (Eek, seems I did comment squee!) What I do wanna say is, this bringing up of how things are 'much harder' for 'new players' and should be looked into...I don't agree that they're harder. I actually think they've gotten a lot easier in many ways. Wha ways? Me list! - More easily accessible good puny weapons especially if you start in certain hometowns. - Donation boxes - Stashes of gold you can stumble on and go oooh hey, now I know where to get rich! (Okie well it isn't a huge amount but to a real puny it is fairly sizable.) - Tamer crocodiles - Tamer boars - Warning signs on tuff areas - More general +1 to +5 stat gear that is on mobs even true new punies can kill, and get a sense of accomplishment from finding said gear. - Mobs haven't gotten harder at lower levels. If you're kick/fleeing footpads, you aren't a true puny anyway. Wimpy changes are pretty much irrelevant. What about those muds that lag you per command and don't let you clear? Me, I've had punies squashed that way in those places cause imma overenthusiastic about magic missiling sommink. There's lots of udder stuff but being featherbrained I canna fink of it atta moment and anyway, this post is spammy enuff soo... Skweeeeflop! Wren-ta-squealer! |U6

From: Sardonyx Monday, November 03 2003, 11:42AM Interesting post...and to everyones utter amazement....no comment. :) |U6

From: Vyper Monday, November 03 2003, 01:37PM Kae mentioned what to do to maybe make xp-running less boring - with the currently available graphical games out there (EQ, DAOC, AC, etc) I don't think a text based game can ever compete. Just my 2 cents... But since muds are (generally) free and easy to connect to, people still play them for the fun/social aspects. Would be nice to see the things that can get us past the "time-sink" part of the game to doing the "fun" parts... |U6

From: Zedikae Monday, November 03 2003, 04:54PM Time for my 2 cents as well. I've been here a considerable amount of time, I've seen drastic changes, I've seen the old DexMUD as they call it, whatever. The fact is we need to get out of the past and stop comparing current legend to the way old things worked. Legend has been, and always will be, a quite unique mud. Now, back in the past it was considered a class-less mud, as shivan said it was fun to find a class noone else used, or maybe haven't even seen. Well, thats dead and gone. Instead of comparing it to those days, we just need to accept it for what it is, and call legend a class based mud on all of those mudsites out there. Now, new changes. Sure, you've given fighters more of a chance, you added new skills, new spells. Now, answer this for me: I'm a mage, I've gotten nothing new in ages. All I see on the boards for mage changes, is X mob(s) are now going to kick the living snot out of charmies. Hows that balancing MY class? I'm just getting weaker and weaker, and mobs are becoming more and more of a hassle. I've made a lot of XP, I've run a lot of group areas. This character was originally not even intended to be in the main rotation of my played alts. It was a character intended to help DT victims and friends with gear or experience. However, I've become attached to what this character could do. Now, mobs that were easy, and mobs that carry decent equipment are getting upgrades versus charmies. Generic level 50 mobs even, like Klein shopkeepers. They don't even give any amazing amount of experience to me compared to other things I can solo, but they deal extra damage to my charmies, so much that a 650 doppelganger can't even tank one with a full army and myself hitting. Thats kinda sad. Solo XP. Heh. is there such a thing anymore? All I see is people begging and pleading to leech my big area runs because leveling is such a painful process. I find that I can get from 1-25 ish easy enough, but anything after that solo takes me FOREVER. I have a level 32 character thats a half create mage. He has approximately 750K to level. I gain approximately 8-12K a kill solo, because I haven't learned to exploit any big mobs that might be easy and give me a lot of experience. 8-12K a mob, and I can kill maybe 10 if I get lucky. That means I have to rest 8 or 9 times, even more sometimes, just to get a level. Factor in that sleeping all of my HP to full takes a good 20 minutes, that means it'd take me probably 4 hours in average to get a level, and that is if I strictly XP run, and don't socialize and chat, and I always sleep and not listen to channels when regenning. If thats your idea of fun, well, hahahahaha. I do enjoy Legend still, maybe not as much as I used to but, I've made a lot of friends here, and became attached to my characters because I have put so much effort and time into them. People hitting level 50 in a few days? I haven't seen that happen. Once I leveled a char to 50 in 6 days. That character was a str/iron will/surgeon. How did I level to 50 in 6 days? Well, I made a character I designed from grouping. Get operate at level 5, get people to kill klein while you heal, you hit 25 in no time. Run PD and SL a lot, get from 25-highbie status in no time. Throw in the fact I could heal myself and fight, and it got me XP in the solo department when noone felt like running klein or salem, or to a bigger extent SL or PD. Healer characters, when grouped, fly through levels. I'm sure it's always gonna happen that way, until the healing class becomes useless with more gimping changes. Already the strain of 10 mana and 10 moves instead of 5/5 are being felt, but still healers can level fast. Whats the next step? Making an operate cost the same as an augment? This is getting kind of long, so I'll make my final point: Legend IS fun, but continuously getting less fun with changes wimping classes, and preventing jack-of-all-trades so to speak. Specialization - Strong in one aspect. Originality - Not strong in any one aspect, but mediocre at a few. I'd prefer origanility, personally. However, originality is becoming less and less of an option around here. -Zedikae's Player I spose, since it comes from my experiences with almost any possible character type here, and have 30 or more alts :p. |U6

From: Vyper Monday, November 03 2003, 09:09PM I think Zedikae hit the nail on the head -- well said. -Vyper's player |U6

From: Maja Friday, November 07 2003, 04:05AM Moo, you are funny! |U6

From: Masha Saturday, June 19 2004, 11:04PM Hell, I have to point out, for the little I do know about various foreign languages, I've learned from Legend, sadly enough. I like the smattering of words here and there. If you can't figure it out, screw ya. I like it fine, and from what I see, a far majority like it too. Rock on, builders. If it wasn't for you, I wouldn't know that Kleinstadt means, 'Little Town'. If people can't be bothered to look at the descriptions of things, that's their fault. I know that when I look at an 'Ein Kind' in Klein, I know that it's a child just by looking at it. Hell the word 'kindergarten' should have been a dead giveaway. Guess people just don't have insight like they used to. Must be the dumbing down of children due to T.V. and internet porn. --Masha |U6


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