Posted by Hebe on 06/27
Mostly, this is a comment for Rufus about the changes.
On one hand, i couldn't agree with him more, that
there's way too many people that take advantage
of these areas, and can't find the way from tara
to agrabah on their own, but they're level 50 due
to running SL & PD. Well, moreso PD but i won't get
into that at all. both areas are a problem.
That being said..
I think this is a mistake. I think that these people
will always find a place, and a way to level fast
without properly exploring, and without knowing
the mud as well as they should. I think this hurts
several char types drastically, mostly healers.
In todays day and age, healers aren't really needed,
with half druids, mages, battle surgeons, and the like.
I'm having a hard time seeing where the level 35 100 spirit
druid will go, to help someone heal to gain xp while
healing. groups just aren't a big part of this mud
anymore, period. I would think that we would encourage
larger groups, not do things to make them smaller.
Anyway, i don't want to whine, so i'll shut up now.
just my two cents.
Friday, June 25 2004, 10:24PM
I'm kinda thinking the minimum level increase on its own would have
accomplished on its own the goal of allowing fewer newbies to powerlevel.
As far as getting people to explore other areas... I don't really see it
happening as a result of this. Instead, I see the other "main" xp areas,
like Klein, getting hit far more often. Just because SL and PD aren't as
attractive anymore, I don't really think people are necessarily going
to seek out out-of-the-way places like Anasazi or Melbourne that were
largely ignored before.
Hey, I could be wrong, it would be far from the first time...I just don't
see this accomplishing the (vaguely) stated goals.
Friday, June 25 2004, 11:22PM
If I had a dollar for every time I had to tweak something in SL
or PD, I'd be a very, very rich man.
That being said, there's a number of factors that influenced
Originally, SL was extremely difficult, as was PD. They've
never received anything but upgrades in their power, and
I've always attempted to maintain a risk vs. reward where
the mobs primarily used what code and skills give them
to succeed (I've stayed away from making my mobs anti-
something unless it was logical or necessary, the rougher
ones occassionally use specials that have no defense
or whatnot). I've stayed away from specifically flagging
my mobs anti-charm, or throw anti-charm acts in because
I wanted every class type to be valued.
The mobs, at this point, have been tweaked, retweaked,
rethought, recoded, re-evaluated to the point I'm tired of
looking at them. The stats vs xp vs skills they use vs
environment, vs... whatever, has gotten so muddled and
confused that I'm not exactly sure what changes I'm making to
them any longer.
But still, through this all, players have continued to ramp up
and face up to the challenges, and, with rare exception,
I'm tired of constantly having to re-evaluate the mobs based on
the commonly held belief that both areas are 'xp trains' and
givaways where equipment, xp and gold are concerned.
This change is the first part in a (hopefully) final
re-evaluation of both areas as I'd like to move on to other
things. What you're fighting there, now, are what are considered
default mobs, both in xp, stats, abilities in damage. I modified
the more major characters based on very strict increases that
ensure that they are worth exactly the xp they give.
It was a way to leave them in-game instead of doing something
like removing all the resets except for a big sign that said
There are many, many, many level 50+ mobs in the game. And
cutting off the monty haul aspect of both of these areas was
the only way I could discourage their use so that I could
find out what people consider a challenging and worthwhile
Of the changes, the only two that are permanent are the level
restrictions on both areas and the new pool in SL. Everything,
in due time, if I'm allowed the chance, will be revamped.
I've stopped fighting the fight and given in to the fact that
although I'm able to code with large numbers while using
skills and abilities available to players, the encounters
ultimately end up getting mastered and the areas are
rapidly perceived as easy places for xp. There will always
be something to be learned about encounters that will make
them easier, but I want SL and PD to be durable areas that
remain challenging into the future, while still encouraging
a moderate usage. Before this patch, they were used far more
than any other XP area. Is it because of the density? The ease?
The loot? The ability to PL there? That's what I need to find
out, and no amount of tweaking with the numbers that were
in place would ever tell me that.
Saturday, June 26 2004, 12:16AM
I can see your frustration, Rufus. And i didn't mean
to critisize you, or your areas in any way. I adore
the fact that you have to be four fifths of the possible
levels to even enter an area of that nature.
xp is everything, on Legend. it drives 90% of what
we do, with your two areas as they were, they were
certainly the fastest way of getting xp. i think
pd is much more guilty of this than sl, though.
i think sl was nearly perfect, exactly the way it was.
i don't think it was run nearly as much, but that's
because pd is easier, and quicker. you can do one side
of pd and be done, and have a nice bunch of xp in the
meantime. however, if this change only applied to pd
and not sl, that would quickly change, i understand that
and i remember the days before pd fairly well. but even
at that point, sl wasn't run nearly as much as pd is run
these days. i'd guess one side or another of pd is run an
average of twice per day, and sl twice per week. sl takes
a little more thought and planning. and the newbie that's
playing the flavor of the month really isn't capable of
understanding all of it's quirks, which is untrue of pd.
You and i talked in great lengths about sl a few days
back, and i think i made myself clear that it's by far
my favorite area in the existing mud. it likely always
will be and i'll miss it quite a bit, if this change
Honestly, i dislike pd, because of what it has become.
i've disliked it for a very long time, and never bothered
to learn it, because of that. though i'm quite guilty
of going on runs there to gain quick xp. but i'd MUCH
rather run sl, period.
Now, after saying all of that, I'll say this.
Sl is the original puzzle area. it was the first of it's
kind on this mud, and it will always be extremely unique
to me because of that. I feel very strongly that it
should stay as it was yesterday, with one modification.
Level 50 to enter, period.
This solves two problems, in my mind.
it gives level 50 healers, who can rarely find
100k xp a week, something to be useful for.
it also keeps the lowbies from powerlevelling.
As far as PD, i have no suggestion whatsoever, i
just think it's sad that something you've
put so much time into has resulted in what we call pd.
i'm done rambling for now, i suppose. i just really
hate to see this change.
Saturday, June 26 2004, 10:55AM
If you dont wanna have to deal with the downside of making a pure healer...
Then dont make one.
Saturday, June 26 2004, 06:02PM
Okay, armed with a little better understanding of why this change was
made, it seems that this is just out of frustration about people mastering
SL and PD too easily (which by the way I, like TL, think is far more true
of the latter than of the former), and a desire to find out what could
make them more challenging.
KZ is rarely run, in spite of the fact that it contains several of the
most sought-after items in the game, because people are afraid of it and
of the high potential for disaster contained therein. I think it's one
of the most fun experiences I've ever had. The danger makes it exciting.
For one thing, it's a complicated web of a maze area without simple
directions to any one target, so if you get lost, good luck. For another,
the mobs wander around like lost puppies, so you have to be constantly
alert. If you slack off, you're probably going to die. And for yet
another, the several "boss" characters are insanely tough. I don't know
whether this is due to the cheese tactics you mentioned like specials,
but they are damn tough...and the Tarasque? I bet you could count the
number of times he's even been attempted in the past year on the fingers
of one hand.
However...I have confidence that one day, KZ will be mastered. Hell will
come, and will seem insanely tough at first I'm sure...I hear Satan is
nigh-impossible. Eventually, however, he too will fall, and whatever other
challenges tossed the players' way will be met. Why? That's what we do.
Players play the game and they improve...as a result, there is never going
to be any "permanent" state you can put any area into--SL, PD or any
other--that is always going to be an enormous challenge to players...not
until there is a "permanent" state the players themselves are in, and that
will never happen.
I have never built an area on a mud, but I can understand how frustrating
it would be if I spent hundreds of hours crafting a challenging area,
thinking to myself "This will really kill 'em!" only to find that scant
months later, my area had been been dominated and had the players
practically wandering in and out at will. So I empathize. But I think
the goal you are reaching for here is ultimately one that does not exist.
That being said, however, I'm all for a much more challenging experience
(especially in PD) and I think the level restriction increase was long
overdue. I just hope the more "permanent" changes are made in a way that
retains the fun I've had in those areas for so long.
Saturday, June 26 2004, 06:29PM
Let me be a little clearer -
From: out of frustration =) I want to make one final
pass at these and hopefully they'll endure. Yeah, I'll know they'll
be mastered at some point, but I would rather them be part of the
challenging areas than constantly having it pointed out to me
exactly how easy they are and how they ruin other areas.
I wanna make a better area. That's about it.
Saturday, June 26 2004, 06:40PM
Well, maybe the cheese tactics are unavoidable. I can't speak for others,
but I know I've never said "Oh man, that mob only beat us because it
used a special. That is so CHEAP!" Either we're good enough to kill it,
or we aren't.
How about mobs with firearms who can shoot members of your group into
another room to pick them off one by one? That'd give me nightmares.
And no cheese.
Or how about more mobs with actual fight skills? There are times when I'm
fighting a mob that's usually not all that hard, but they get a nasty
headbutt in on me and I'm suddenly toast. I don't see much skill use at
all in SL or PD--if any?
That's all I have right now.
Saturday, June 26 2004, 06:51PM
That's because by the time you bring 5 hitters, and a slew of healers,
the mobs spend most of the time stunned or sitting.
I've refused, up to this point, to make things like mobs that are
unstunnable that will headbutt you =) Catch my drift?
Saturday, June 26 2004, 09:56PM
The new Hell is not meant to be as deadly as, say, KZ.
Saturday, June 26 2004, 11:05PM
I think i understand this a bit more clearly now. And the
more I think about it, the more I like this change.
First, SL / PD eq is no longer in that high of demand.
Though I still think the dagger there is the best in
the game, bar none. I've yet to play with the new weapons
there, and i'm sure they're quite nice. But in this age
of legendmud, there isn't on dominant weapon any more,
thus the gear isn't in such high demand.
From this point on, I'm not even going to address
PD, because i think it ended up being a waste of time
for the single best builder legend has. I think
it's a great area, but it's abused, and i dislike that and
will happily live without it.
Now, for SL:
I've been fortunate enough to speak to Rufus one on
one about things that are forthcoming, and I think
it's simply great. I think it will be exactly as it
was when the orginal SL was installed. And i think
we'll all forget all about this conversation, and this issue.
But i do have a suggestion, for the current SL, that
i think would improve it, as a harder area.
I think the mundane mobs, like skatha's warriors need to
be harder. I think they need to hit harder, and I think
they need to be smarter mobs. It's a problem that they're
always sitting or stunned, and I see the point of not
making them no_stun or no_sit. but i'm afraid that in
todays mud, they need to be to make them challenging.
I think another good idea, would be to make a few follow
each other. so when you shoot one in, two might follow him
and kill the entire group. perhaps make a bigger consequence for
doing something out of order, if you will. for example:
If you skip Erin, he appears and assists Cuch.
Sunday, June 27 2004, 03:57AM
Being killed by a LOTP is a joke? Is that a joke?
Sunday, June 27 2004, 10:30AM
Well, I've been to both the new Sl and PD...
I like it. I think that the changes are all for the better, while
I was a lil disappointed that I got the same xp froma crow as a pirate, I think that
think that it's all going to be for the better, as it seems
It seems to discourage really large groups, but we don't seem to have a lot
lot of people on for the runs anymore... SO, my hat's off to Rufus, and I'm happy with
I'm happy with the changes..
Sunday, June 27 2004, 01:42PM
The changes I'm trying, these are what I'm currently testing on
my test mud:
- Minimum level stays at 39
- Some folks under 44 might feel a bit singled out and require
extra protection while in PD
- Mobs wander far more frequently, and can, under certain
circumstances, wander into rooms that were previously
- Jewelled saber modified to make it a more traditional and
- Bloody rags and jewelled crown modified to make these items
worth owning, and to see if that'll entice people into their
- South side only available after triggering a certain event
- Some changes such that charmies will still be useful, but a
charmie army might have some trouble succeeding
- Slightly increased spawn timer (over the original, not the
currently, extremely lengthy one)
- AC returned to all items that had it before, rent adjusted
- Modified stats on the silver sash so they're not quite as
- Minimum level of 44 to leap across the bridge
- Increased mobs' use of fighting skills and specials
- Hound special damage now had a random factor
- Same charmy fix applied as above in PD
- Mobs should be allowed to do their special skills more
- Cuch's cloak upgraded, but rent upscaled as well
- AC returned to many items that had lost it in recent weeks
- Changed the demon king's fight strategies a bit, also
made him more likely to spawn the other two demon kings
- Skatha's warriors are a bit smarter about fighting
Sunday, June 27 2004, 01:54PM
Sunday, June 27 2004, 03:34PM
Just a couple thoughts on changes to SL
Have Erin move about like he used to way back when? I was always
somewhat confused as to why he spends his life stuck in that 1 room now.
Make Skatha get annoyed again when you wack her warriors in front of her?
Sunday, June 27 2004, 03:39PM
There's a reason erin doesn't move around like he used to. I know
one person's figured it out =)
Skatha and the warrior thing... I'm working on another way to
make Skatha and her warriors work much differently but that
will have to wait a while. Suffice to say, right now, that
she thinks her warriors should be able to stand up for
themselves. If they're weak enough to be defeated, she's happy
to stand by and watch the carnage
Sunday, June 27 2004, 07:10PM
Just a thought, that I hope you keep in mind, please don't make SL
so insanely hard like KZ, because there just isn't enough player activity
these days to get a group large enough to run KZ
I know I know, it's supposed to be that way, but those players that are
telling you SL is too easy, I can gaurantee more will tell you it's too
annoying if you make it super hard! :P
Sunday, June 27 2004, 08:23PM
I'm thinking the complaints about SL and PD being too easy are coming just
as much from the imm side as from the mort side, if not more.
Sunday, June 27 2004, 10:45PM
I like the new changes to the areas, actually I love that PD is getting harder
harder (I hate truncated lines)
but level 44 to leap the bridge? that seems steep. I tihnk maybe it should
be made level 44 to go into calatin or demon kings blah blah blah, but
lower levels should at least be able to stay for skatha's
From: just my opinion.
Oh I would like to say though that SL is one of my favorite areas and has
been for a long long time. PD notsomuch, it was always just a bunch of
quick levels, so kudos for the changes in that respect.