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planes balloons and cars

1996 Topic Archives

Posted by Tsukuyomi on 10/30/96

it would be a good idea if people could ride in cars balloons and planes without having to drop their boat, I mean you can put the board in someplace in the veichle... because you have to drop the boat, no one is making use of the the veichles (not only that but maybe the fuel...) by a simple change like that could attract a number of people to use the planes and stuff


From: Kaedon Thursday, October 24, 04:37AM

In the effort of trying to keep realism, uh.. how in the world can you put a boat in a car, or balloon?? I think that things are done this way to keep realism, at least to some degree. And being able to put a boat in a car or balloon just doesn't seem to do that.


From: Mandarin Thursday, October 24, 04:40AM

uhm, you could mount the boat on top of the car, or drag it with it with a little cart that costs extra :P

From: Kaedon Thursday, October 24, 04:41AM

But there aren't carts for that, at least not to my knowledge. And have you ever looked at the car? its a convertible.

From: Lagmonster Thursday, October 24, 06:13AM

well, then. we'll just have inflatable boats instead. :P

From: Ptah Thursday, October 24, 12:37PM

We could always make it so that you have to portage ALL boats, then this wouldn't be a problem.

From: Beam Friday, October 25, 04:07AM

sarcasm? this board is ridiculous.

From: Ptah Friday, October 25, 10:42AM

No, not sarcasm. A quite straightfaced suggestion, though one that would involve a fair amount of work. Let me expand upon it.

- we're running short of item types, and currently have three overlapping item types that provide extremely similar functionality. To wit,

BOAT provides ability for one to walk on water_swim and water_noswim rooms.

GROUPBOAT provides ability for a builder-specified number of people in a group to walk in water rooms, and adds container functionality, with a "hold" so that boats may hold contents. They must be portaged over non-water rooms.

VEHICLE provides the ability for builder-specified number of people to ente the vehicle using a different interface and internal method than the group- and-get method in boats and groupboats. They can be specified for a wide range of terrain types, can use fuel (or not), are not permitted indoors, and have fields to equip a missile weapon with ammunition upon them.

Of the three, vehicles are by far the most flexible, and encompass all functionality of groupboats except the hold. Basicaly, it is a choice there between having a hold and supplying a gun.

The boat item type, however, is the least realistic, and nothing it does can't be done by making a groupboat with room for only one person. Therefore it is a good candidate to go away and free up an item type to be something else entirely.

Aside from the gains in realism for not carrying two large canoes around with you everywhere you go, there are additional things we could do if we had all boats of size unified under a single type, such as making "virtual rooms' of deck space, so that groupboats basically supplied a set of rooms to wander in, board from, have combat in, etc.

Obviously, people dislike having to get a new boat every time they hit shore, but then, the way boats are now they are pretty much taken for granted. The builders woul dhave to supply ready access to boats at every shoreline everywhere, so that it woul dbe a simple matter to cross water when in a hurry. It's a fair amount of work, but really not that bad. Plus it would give a lot more inventory/carry space to players to not need to carry a boat around everywhere. Plus all boats would have hold space.

So, not sarcasm. Some of the imms have wanted to make all boats portage for a long time now, and certainly the idea of merging ITEM_BOAT and ITEM_GROUPBOAT has been around a very long time.


From: Beam Friday, October 25, 08:37PM

Portaging boats wouldn't be that big of a problem to me. I don't like how balloons and planes seem to be only in the air so you have to fly to go get one. Also you can't recall with a plane, and they aren't rentable. This makes them a real pain to use. Also the usage for grouping with vehicles or planes is extremely confusing.

From: Mandarin Friday, October 25, 08:47PM

I personally think making the boats, uhm, portageable will make the blind spell even more powerful in pkill, and really should be reconsidered. It is bad enough that you can only to certain transes while you are blind...having boats drop all the time (like the viking dragon ship) would practically force everybody to have a cure blind of some sort.


From: Wraith Friday, October 25, 10:02PM

With most vehicles, you shouldn't be able to bring them inside to rent with them. Currently, there is a bug that lets you take all vehicles inside unless they need tracks to run on.

- Wraith

From: Tsukuyomi Friday, October 25, 10:53P

M wow, 10 replies that fast...well anyway

well i think that vehicles should be able to rent with, recall with and such... plus did you notice how little the fuel supply provides? maybe make it so that they add more fuel, (at least half way would be nice with one can) and make the plane/balloon/car able to hold more units of fuel

also, making a long path through the world might be a good idea (such as, WW2 to china or someplace far away) so people would actually make use of the cars oh yeah, gas stations or stores selling gasoline in every area might be nice too

From: Beam Saturday, October 26, 04:26AM

I get the feeling that anything that would make things easier for players will be dismissed because the people making the decisions think that things are too easy for players now. One example is that planes need a level 40 or so to be able to get them. I played this mud for about 6 months before I really learned enough for things to be easier. Does anyone else think that this mud is very newbie friendly. Should one have to put in 1000 hours before they figure everything out? Also after playing a great deal of hours it seems that most anything implemented can be overcome by experienced players, especially those with friends. Which is more valid making things harder so long time players have trouble or making some things easier so that newbies will have an easier time. Personally I am not for a mud that makes things very difficult for new players and is much easier for older players because they know all the tricks.

From: Lagmonster Saturday, October 26, 02:44PM

Honestly, making boats portage-mandatory would kill me right out, as I wouldnt be able to go anywhere while blind...besides, in non-blind circumstances, all a player needs is a dumb trigger or an alias to get by the boat-portage thingie, so i see it as being basically pointless if not discouraging in general. If you need to free up an item type, why not merge group-boat and vehicle? i'm sure you cold easily code around that too..

Lagmonster...spends most of his pkill fights blind...

From: Ptah Sunday, October 27, 05:17PM

First off, yes, we could merge vehicle and groupboat by doing away with holds in boats. Doing away with the completely superseded boat type seems easier however. If we rolled groupboats into vehicles, we might as well roll boats into them too.

There seem to be two objections to the idea: one related to pkill and blindness, which strikes me as fairly valid; and one related to the supposed difficulty for players if all boats required portaging (and Beam's resultant off-topic post regarding mud difficulty, who it is geared towards, and how pointless it is to suggest anything).

First off, let me state flatly that yes, one reason why I'd like to make boats portage is because I think it's down to a choice between that or removing boats and giving everyone waterwalking. :P It's silly for everyone to be carrying around boats all the time no matter where they are (hey look, ma, I'm in a closet, and I have a ten foot long canoe with me!).

As I stated in my post, if this change were made (which I might remind everyone, is PURE speculation, as it is a tertiary discussion off of the original post) there would need to be a LOT of work done to make boats and seafaring vehicles easily accessible at every coastal area. But that likewise, there's a lot of possible enhancements that could be made, such as a boats with actual "space" in them, etc.

The concern about blindness and boats doesn't seem to be one about boats so much as it would be one about blindness. If blindness has become the be-all and end-all of pkill, maybe it's THAT we need to be looking at, and not a simple change ot item types which could be compensated for by simply loading a dozen canoes in every coastal water room.

Certainly if blind is as predominant a factor in every clanned's character's lives as these posts make it out to be, it sounds like it needs addressed. But I don't think that we should limit the choices we make on boats, or any other issues, because of it.

Lastly, regarding Beam's post... any longterm player can tell you that we do listen to ideas and likewise, we do have firm ideas of our own. We do implement good ideas, and we do point out the flaws in bad ones. The issue of overall difficulty of the mud, or difficulty for newbies versus advanced players, doesn't seem to be one particularly addressed by this topic as a whole... if anything, the primary concerns seem to be related specifically to higher level pkillers (who tend to be the most capable players). If there were boats easily available at every possible location where one might need them, I daresay that the life of a newbie would be much easier. Not to mention that they could carry more equipment if they didn't need to lug a boat around all the time.

To say that all our changes make life as a newbie harder is ludicrous. Most of our changes affect the higher level players most, it is true-- most of them don't even affect newbies at all. Yes, life as a newbie is difficult here, but it is not nearly so difficult as myth has it, or else there wouldn't be such a thing as "level to 5" races with winners who make it in 3 and a half hours.

We DO care whether the mud is too difficult for novices, but find that most often such opinions are conditioned by the experiences on other muds of the Monty Haul variety. Under skill trees, we plan to implement a new XP scale for levels along with a new rent scale which gives newbies much more rent space and a much easier XP curve. We've also discussed for quite a long time now the craftsman skills which give players the ability to make low-stat-boost items specifically for the newbies and lower levels.

I'm getting frankly tired of the negativism that constantly comes across is Beam's posts, which rarely seem to be on-topic for long. If this board is to discuss specific issues, let's try to keep the discussion on topic. If you want to just accuse the immorts of ignoring the needs of players, attempting to make the mud way too hard, etc etc, let's start a new thread for it below, right next to the "All imms are corrupt and out to get players" and the "imms play opposite gender characters in order to get mudsex" threads. :P

Or perhaps a topic on starting your own mud would be in order?


From: Mandarin Sunday, October 27, 07:38PM

Hmm. If boats were actually made readily available in every coastal area, they should also repop quite frequently (or solve this by having a mob that sells boats everywhere) and if made portageable, would probably solve the frequent drowning problem caused by using boats too long..I half welcome this, but would like to suggest making boats work the way they do now if the player has sufficient str...viking group boats were actually carried by the vikings when they were treading land, and i think canoes should be made carry-able with sufficient str.. and, maybe, tho as unrealistic as it maybe, certain item types should be allowed to be able to take while blind, or being able to buy while blind might work..well, guess blindness will have to go to another post.

Mandarin...babbling about..nodding to himself...getting senile.

From: Lethargio Sunday, October 27, 09:01PM

of course, canoes and fishing boats being able to go around the world is also very unrealistic, if you wanted realism then small boats would only be able to go as far as maybe a bay, (like in london), then if you wanted to go around the world you'll have to make more people like the swarthy, lean captain so that you can go around the world, maybe that would make people want to use planes, and fly spells, if you improved the convenience of planes, ( so people from london can use planes, mages can cast fly) how about a very high fuel capacity, very high fuel refill, and rentable planes? not that the're going to impliment this anyway, just wanted to tell you people some ideas

From: Mandarin Monday, October 28, 04:26PM

let's just have it so there is a 'cross-ocean swimming skill' :P naw, but really. i think if yer gonna get bogged down like this, how real is it that one can travel cross the world within 30minutes (a tick) or an hour? reality check here, the thing comes down to how much are we going to allow in our little (huge) fantasy world, and i dont see much problem with a canoe going all across the world...the takiki (forgot what exactly the name of that canoe-thingie was) went all across the pacific (or the atlantic, pardon short term memory) centuries ago, and since we all are here with built-in compasses that lets us go north, south, east, west without ever making a mistake, why not allow for some more 'unrealistic' stuff.

great, now they're gonna mandate ppl to carry compasses now

Mandarin...again, babbling about, nodding to himself, getting senile.

From: Ptah Monday, October 28, 06:20PM

It really boils down to how representative you want your realism to be. It isn't about making the most accurate simulation possible, but rather, about making something that feels real enough to convey the flavor, without impacting greatly upon playability.

In the case of boats, they are so easily available and so commonly carried around that they are not fulfilling that requirement--they just do not succeed at adding the flavor that they should. Hence the desire to make them do so,by making them more cumbersome to move around, though easier to find.

Let me disagree with Lagmonster, too, and say that wider availability of other types of vehicles, including possibly upping the fuel available, seems to me like quite a viable solution. As far as the planes and balloons getting stuck in midair-- I don't know anything about that, but i know that we woul dlike to make things dropped in aerial rooms fall to the ground, and I bet that it's part of the same problem. :)

I don't think we'd disallow sailing across the Pacific in a Kon-Tiki, but we might make it riskier than using a large boat. :)


From: Donelan Wednesday, October 30, 09:33AM

Ptah, why not merge all three item types and just have vehicles? Doing away with the BOAT type would mean building in more boats at coastal areas, but no other coding. However, coding to add a hold to the VEHICLE type would eliminate all overlap.

From: Ptah Wednesday, October 30, 10:32AM

Because we can't add anything else to vehicles--the item type has used all thevariables we've got. :)

From: Gail Wednesday, October 30, 11:40AM

So, like, why don't we add more variables?

From: Psytrac Wednesday, October 30, 03:10PM

all you, Gail.


1996 Topic Index