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A troubling thing

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Posted by Laurel on 11/21/96

This is a bit of a take off Donelan's post about warcry and bags... but mostly about con fighting so i decided to make a new post:

Con fighters: Oh sure we all know that skill trees is supposed to fix the gap between con fighters and dex fighters. Dex fighters will loose their mutant hps and con fighters will have theirs. But what good is it if con fighters can't even hit the dex fighters to begin with. My dex character can kill Bishop Higbald only loosing 20hps and sometimes 0

My con fighter lost 600+hps and didn't even kill him. (poultices) People complain that warcry is too nice already (nhoj) but with the infrequency of its paralyzes (the only thing con fighters can count on to win a battle) what good is it? Headbutt stuns for at least one round! Donelan's suggestion about having a headbutt like action for warcry is sane, but it doesn't even have to be warcry. it could be another skill. It is not fair to base headbutt on dex and then say to make a con skill like headbutt is unfair.

I have 100 con and I can't kill ANYTHING worth getting xp out of for my level. I can make nice poultices, but no one wants to group and share xp cause they can just go to the wells for a quick heal. (100 spirit/con) at all times. This is an awesome character when used to help in battle, but alone, can't do squat. I'm all for grouping, but the concept doesn't work one way!

As for poultices, I think if druids want to make augmented poutices they shouldn't have to spam anyway, i find the time on them very reasonable as it makes them only useable right after a battle or during one. I think it absurd that someone could walk around with 10 augments. This means that the druid isn't really needed for the fights, just needed to make the augments and then the player can go solo some more mobs without having to run to the wells. I think if you want to make augments last a bit longer, just have them preserved (they can be preserved you know) thats what i do if i need them to last a bit longer and because you are using mana (lots too) it helps restrict the amount of preserved augments made.

the ranting Laurel, druidess of WillowWind.


From: Bacchanal Saturday, November 16, 02:25AM

Warcry hits more frequently than con fighters would like to admit with paralyze. From personal experience, I've had a char with 54 con that's become somewhat notorious for hitting con fighters with a LOT of paralyzing warcries, it's become a habit for me in combat, and it sure shocks the con fighters, however, I've also noticed most of the time con fighters can paralyze me with a warcry just as easily or moreso, it definetly is an overpowered skill.

From: Galron Saturday, November 16, 03:25AM

You flatter the skill, so yar lucky with warcry so what? I have 100 con and I understand where she is coming from 100%. The only reason I was able to get by was because I have 100 mind and can stun instead. You tell me that 54 con paralyzes and I say bah! Its way too infrequent and the lag on the skill makes it unwise to use in combat and wait for it to paralyze something.

Galron, another peeved con fighter.

From: Gail Saturday, November 16, 11:41AM

Trust me. the fight skills are all being totally re-designed with skilltrees, and there will be just as good skills in all the different fighting stats.


From: Point Saturday, November 16, 03:07PM

Actually, I think warcry is a fine skill. Bacchanal is right, you can get paralyzes with it quite often, though I find it far more effective with a warcry/flee approach.

Even if you don't get the paralyze with it every time, warcry with a 100 con always does a fair amount of damage every time, and a panic will let you finish most mobs without taking any more damage as effectively as a paralyze will.

While I don't necessarily believe it's overly powerful as a number of people state, is also by no means too weak. I use it all the damn, and I do just fine.


From: Mandarin Saturday, November 16, 03:08PM

Warcries hit more often than you'd like, especially since even a panic-inducing one is often as beneficial as the paralyze given that you know how to use one. Granted that it is rather disturbing to know that 100 con does not in anyway significantly improve your warcry, but i think i have noticed that it does do more damage than a 50 con warcry. With the added bonus of the panic-inducing effect, i think warcry is, though not overpowered, not an underpowered skill, and the fact that a paralyzing warcry usually even stays on long enough to kill sanced mobs with 400+hps, I truly dont think there is much to complain. Besides, if you are a true con fighter, you should have enough hps to keep trying for a paralyze...if you can't, you are probably fighting the wrong mob.


From: Gho Saturday, November 16, 03:55PM

when you've tried to pkill as a con fighter you'll know how much it sucks, it does bugger all damage if any so basically you're dead unless you paralyze which doesn't happen often enough for you to have much of a chance..

From: Laurel Saturday, November 16, 07:22PM

The only people who find it usefull are people that are dex fighters that hit the minimum con. Its okay with those kind of people to miss warcries they can _DODGE_ the damage done and ten do adequate damage to the mob ther attacking

For a PURE con fighter, the only time damage is done is when the mob is stunned, so stop saying warcry is good if you are a dex fighter, because thats not what this post is about. And that thing about being very beneficial if the mob panics is nonsense, what good is it if you can't even hit them, it just makes the fight super long and tiresome. Its only good in the sense that less hps are lost. To understand, get your dex down to 22 and your perception down to 30 and your con to 100 and then come back and post.

Laurel, the angered

From: Haul Saturday, November 16, 09:05PM

I have, err, had, a character with 100 con, 20 dex, 20 str, and he did FINE. He can solo most mobs my non-warcrying chars can, tho I do admit not as much as a warcrying dex char, or a con char with suped up dex. This char i am using right now, has nearly 0 dex and his only skill is a warcry. Yeah, i barely hit anything except when the mob is stunned, but even if i only get a panic-inducer, i'll easily kill off the panicking mob (if you dont know how this works, you should find out before you cry 'warcry sucks') Heck, given any one combat skill, warcry rates among the best skills--sure kicks do lots of damage and headbutt might stun the mob, and backstab you have a chance at a paralyze--but other than kick, no combat skill, IMHO, comes close to the no-risk guarantee of a warcry. Besides, there are no restriction to whom you may not warcry against--as opposed to headbutt and backstab. If you think warcry only does good in the hands of a dex fighter, you are playing your con char as if he was a dex character.

Haul. Con/str with dex as his 4th pick.

From: Laurel Sunday, November 17, 06:15AM

I'm not crying warcry sucks, i'm crying for more con balance, its just a gripe and I know skilltrees are supposed to fix it, but i was mad when i couldn't kill a mob using my 600hps (poultices) when my dex char can kill him in two rounds, and Yes, i did use warcry and No, it didn't paralyze him thru the whole fight, and if warcry paralyzes more with 50 con as some claim, then maybe it should be looked at

From: Lethargio Sunday, November 17, 08:58PM

quick fix, make a high con semi-high perc char

hell, I don't know if this would work but you might want to try it

Don't criticize me for this because I might not know what the hell i'm talking about, Lethargio

From: Haul Sunday, November 17, 11:02PM

if you dont know what the heck yer talking about, dont talk.

From: Beam Sunday, November 17, 11:05PM

Try agg max for a few extra paralyzes with warcry, also blind mobs tend to paralyze easier with warcry too. The way i found this out was with a gun using char a while back, you can easily tell that you hit your target more often while agged with a gun. Seeing the difference with warcry is a bit harder.

From: Kaedon Monday, November 18, 06:15AM

Um, I'm a con mage(100con/mind) and I use warcry quite often. the rest of my stats are at the minimum required for words, etc. For me, warcry does LOADS of damage, but the thing you need to do is fight like a con fighter, not a dex fighter with high con. I think I do fairly well as a con/mage. I can still kill mobs that dex fighters can with only a little more trouble than they have. Get dex out of your head. Use what you have, you'll do fine.

-Kaedon, who is probably way too tired to be writing this anyway.

From: Beam Monday, November 18, 09:12PM

I guess the problem most people see with con fighting is that yah you can warcry but you cant flee very well and the mob is hitting you a lot more than you are hitting them. I always did best with warcry flee even though this might be looked at a dex type fighting style. In the past i used this to kill minos and i dont think a pure dex fighter could have done it very easily with kick flee.

As things are now and if after skill trees con fighters have the big hp it will be even more so, is that con fighters are supposed to stand there and tank the mobs. Is this what you mean by fighting as con? If what you meant by fighting as con was trying to get the most chances to warcry by fleeing, I think this works even better for the dex fighter because con fighters fail flees more often.

Con fighters just aren't as much fun to play. You cant flee and warcry is your best skill. So I'm not exactly sure whats meant by fight as a con fighter. Personally i look at warcry flee as fighting as a dex fighter, but as dex rules all fighters have to depend on thier dex. I really look forward to headbutts success rate being based on con.

From: Laurel Tuesday, November 19, 01:55AM

I myself have a character with 100con/mind and my character hasn't many problems killing most mobs. But this is only because of my mind. I know con fighters fight by standing there and tanking, but it gets a little outrageous to think that a dex fighter can take care of a mob loosing 20 hps whilte a con fighter must tank for 600+ before the mob is dead. My success rate is purely based on luck (whether it gets paralyzed) and regardless of previous posts, my experience with 100con/100spir and base mage stats tell me warcry is anything but successful most of the time. Maybe the people who get it more have another stat that is beneficial.

Laurel, she who eagerly awaits skilltrees.

From: Haul Tuesday, November 19, 03:06AM

I personally think you are trying to fight mobs that have been designed to discourage soloing them. Since dex is overpowered, it may be possible to kill such mobs, but I do not think they were meant to be dealt that way. For example, at lower levels, if you have a con fighter you will notice that you can probably go through the same number of mobs as a dex char (if that char did not use lvling eq) or even more, depending on your weapon.

As a player who lvled 2 chars as con warriors, I did not too much of a disadvantage at lower lvls compared to my dex char who didnt use lvling eq. I do think at higher levels, where all the players have one or more 100 stats in support, having con as the main fighting stat sucks compared to dex, but hell, it isnt as bad as str.

And, besides, why keep whining if we know this problem is going to be fixed anyway? Think it is annoying to keep on having to listen to players and characters whine when the decision to change has already been made. Unless you can help the coding staff by actually taking part of this, whining here is not going to make the changes happen any sooner

From: Beam Tuesday, November 19, 08:30PM

having to listen you say? cmon its a board and discussion about just exactly is wrong with con fighters isnt whining, for one thing the basic fact that con fighters have to tank alot and hit less etc won't change they will just have more hp than other characters. I find it annoying and boring when i don't have dex, but hopefully headbutt will give confighters something to do.

From: Haul Wednesday, November 20, 04:41AM

It is whining...are you changing anything? Gail said things would roughly balance out, so why not place your trust on her until you see the darn thing yourself? I highly doubt there is anyone out there on the mud right now that does not know how dex 'rules' the current combat system.

If you looked at the preliminary list of skills, there were some con-based skills added, plus headbutt is supposed to be totally independent of dex now, which alone should be a pain for non-con fighting warriors (unless you get your lucky 6th and tumble away). Even if that did not change, skills improving with usage will make con char's warcry pretty deadly (heck, if that's the only skill they use, it is gonna improve up the wazoo)

I say you quit whining and wait for the skill trees. Or go mud somewhere else in the meantime.

From: Beam Wednesday, November 20, 12:54PM

Haul, i will say this, shut up. If we want to whine and call it not whining we will if we want to discuss something we will. And if we want to read your posts about you having to listen to someone whining and then laugh at you for stupidity and make posts riduculing you for it we will.

Your first mistake was thinking this discussion was whining the second was saying you had to listen to it. Does someone force you to read this thread? Is your brain hurting you? Maybe you should get an icepick and dig it out?

From: Haul Wednesday, November 20, 02:52PM

sheesh beam. for the lack of a better phrase, shut up.

you should probably head back to wherever you are hailing from, chill, and return when all the changes are made. Why on earth do you bother staying online and whine about stuff that is to be changed? And besides, you are just a wee bit impatient and immature to think that nobody else on this mud knows this about con fighters and such, and if you are gonna keep yapping about it, do it after the changes come through, not while it is waiting to be processed and probably in the process of being tested out.

Grab a beer from yer fridge, chill, and go have a social life while the changes in legend are being made. If the con-fighting really sucks so badly right now, and if you are not having fun, why not simply take a break?

From: Beam Thursday, November 21, 12:57AM

Im not a con fighter now, it was merely a discussion someone started and you said stop whining.

Does this thread threaten you somehow? You assume too much about me, i will discuss most anything just for the fun of it, but I think its very bad form to try to stop a thread or discussion, saying people are whining or wasting their time or for any reason.


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