Discussion Index


1997 Topic Index

Posted by Threshold on 05/17

Was just wondering, am I the only one who thinks it is a bit overpowered? I mean, it is one of the safest yet most devastating skills out there, with minimal casting cost. With each successful chant guh lak vya ex granting a chance for the target to remain stunned fo for a prolonged period of time, and that low mind chars have no defenses available to them (warcry is wacked, gunshots can miss, bashes/headbutts y you can fall on your face, kicks can miss, etc, etc.) I think there should be a chance for a stun to either miss, or at least raise its mana cost by 50-100%, given that it probably does more damage than an immolate would.

From: Benedick Wednesday, April 23, 01:30PM

We need some sv_spell eq on this mud

From: Lust Wednesday, April 23, 01:46PM

I think that people with low mind have plenty of ways to paralyze mages. Backstab, warcry, headbutt. IMHO, it's pretty balanced.

From: Threshold Wednesday, April 23, 02:46PM

The thing is, all those skills are very available to mages with high or medium mind. Headbutt is something that can be blocked handily by mages either by tumble, clumsy, or straight out high dex. Warcry doesn't perform anywhere near the consistency for it to be effective. As far as backstabs are concerned, mages can backstab as well, and it is only a combat-initiating skill, limited by a tick flag. When taking into account the ability of mages to nullify backstab threats by having high perc of their own (as opposed to non-mages who have no use for a high mind, really) by either stacking perc a bit, or blinding the target, or going invis, it is very clear that non-mages in general, with the probable exception of dex/perc chars, stand little chance against mages.

From: Solomon Wednesday, April 23, 02:49PM

In my opinion, stun is no more overpowered than headbutt. In fact, I think headbutt is more powerful and far more prevalent. Headbutt has not mana cost. Headbutt doesn't backlash, stunning you. Just as low mind chars have no defense against a stun, low dex chars have no defense against a bash or a headbutt. Every type of character has it's own strengths and weaknesses. If you sacrifice mind for perception and dex in order to get a backstabbin sniper, don't be surprised that you are stun bait. If you boost your mind to 100 in order to get the most damage from immolate and the most dangerou stun, don't be surprised when anybody can drive their forehead into your face.

In addition, I've always thought that the distribution of mind among the m was a bit too high. Considering that a low mind character can have as litt as 20 in that stat, I'd think that normal, mundane mobs like the animals would all be stun bait. I think that those with the headbutt skill can app it much more safely than those with the stun spell.

This is just my personal opinion, but I think that stun is reasonably well balanced with the other options available.

From: Threshold Wednesday, April 23, 09:13PM

That would be true if this was a balanced mud. There are only a handful of characters out there who doesn't have 100 dex. Moreover, because you can go around with 20 mind, there is little need for mages to actually max out on their mind. I know as little as 50-60 mind, with the help of idiocy, can be as devastating, and at the same time applied to a number of mobs that give tons of xp (quite a few players, too, I might add).

Therefore, a pkilling mage (most likely to be a dex/mind variant) has little to worry about, other than mages with higher mind than them.. even then, chances are the other stats CAN balance things for them, as they could most likely sink themselves to limited, but still present, protection.

If we had bash totally dependant on strength, and headbutt on constitution mages would be balanced, having little defense against those skills. But when taking into consideration that little of the pkill-active mages are non-dex, stun is way overpowered, and a risk-free method ensuring at least 60 pts of damage a round.


PS-regarding headbutts being fail-proof. Against a 100 dex mage, who can tumble and dish those skills out just as well as you can, falling on your face or butt isn't exactly 'fail-proof.'

From: Lethargio Wednesday, April 23, 10:08PM

have you ever tried to pkill against a mage with a sniper char, solomon? i'm one of the smartest non-mage pkillers around (50 mind nakked!) and I the most damage I did to a 100 mind mage was like 100-150 hps... I kind of suck at pkill anyway, but still you know...maybe should increase damage on guns or some way to balance it out.

P.S. I do -MUCH- better against a fighter/sniper than a mage (with caps and twinkly stars an all)

From: Solomon Thursday, April 24, 10:02AM

I will grant you that those mages that have a high dex have the advantages that go along with that. But the imbalancing thing here is not the stun, but the dex.

Futhermore, you need a 50 mind to be able to stun, and with that much mind the only thing you can stun are low mind pkillers, practically. Remem ber all the other, non-pkilling, mages out there, who may not have 100 dex You can't 'balance' things by assuming that all mages have 100 dex, cuz it just ain't so.

When I was pkilling, I had 100 con and mind. This combination sucked for pkill, but I know that I wasn't the only one out there. You may think that mages are too powerful, but my experiences don't bear this out. If you wan to complain about something, complain about how unbalancing dex is. I know firsthand about that. ;)

From: Lagmonster Thursday, April 24, 11:08AM

I think stun is overpowered when it allows a quite low-lvl mage to solo mobs that other types of chars will not even attempt at higher lvls. A proof of that would be the ease with which mages do (dex or no dex) against mobs in a dex-ruled mud. Granted that stunbaits are few and far between, it is a decisive advantage over other types of chars, even dex, if the dexfighter isn't well-endowed in hps.

From: Lust Thursday, April 24, 11:41AM

Sure, mages can solo certain mobs at low levels. But you're forgetting that con fighters [with a bazillion hps at a low level] or dex/perc fighters [who can hit/flee and possibly first aid] also have their own types of mobs they can solo. And I tell ya, there are MANY more mobs with weak con or dex or perc than there are weak minded ones.

From: Lethargio Thursday, April 24, 09:50PM

umm, I have 50 mind when I pkill, and it still sucks... well I like fighting 60 mind mages tho ;) problem is that all those 100 mind mages can kick my butt

A easy solution to all this is to let stun only last for 1 round...and also, raise the mana cost for stun a bit

From: Stradivari Thursday, April 24, 09:54PM

As a CON mage ... stun is my only weapon against big mobs. I can't headbutt, kick, bash, or anything else. I used the stun spell a lot as a low level, because a CON mage with a wooden club does nothing when it comes to damage. If were are gonna make stun cost more mana or weaker, then why don't we do that to all spells? Geez ... some spells can do lotsa damage. Then, we can make kick weaker, then alter how headbutt works, and make weapons do less damage.


From: Lethargio Friday, April 25, 12:56AM

yes, I know...but were talking about how dex mages are too strong. if a dex mage and dex sniper would to fight (with same amount of hps) the sniper would have practically no chance against the mage. Just how a con fighter would die against a con mage...I see a conflict with killing mobs kind of people and pkill kind of people...if you make stun strong it would screw up pkill, if you make it too weak, i would screw up the non clanned...I don't know how this would be ever solved...

From: Claudia Friday, April 25, 01:42AM

Umm, lethargio, have you ever tried pkilling with a high mind dex mage? it's almost impossible to even reach 100mind/dex in the first place, and keep all spells at the same time. Secondly, have you ever tried killing a dex/perc fighter as a mage? The smart ones usually hit and flee, if you miss a stun when they flee, you waste mana, and are delayed for 1 to 2 rounds. Stun, imho should be more powerful with the more mind you have, ie. 100mind should produce a stronger stun against a 20mind person, than a person that stuns with 50mind. Mages are also vulnerable when they have no mana left, a problem which doesn't affect non-mages obviously. And one other thing, when trees eventually come, dex mages won't have as many hp's as they might have now, unless they change to con, or sacrifice mind for additional con, and stun is going to change aswell, most likely for the good of the non-mages.

- Claudia

From: BokChoy Saturday, April 26, 04:05AM

Claudia hits it on the mark.

the problem with stun is that if you try it after the person has left the room, you lose mana, and you get skill delay.

with headbutt, people can just keep pressing the !! key over and over and have no fear of skill delay or mana cost.

i do want to say that i have fought as stunbait before, back when i had 75 mind and was fighting some 100 mind people. the key to pkilling isn't getting in a stun. the key is avoiding the other person's stun. if you keep getting stunned, then you should probably try some new strateg because there is a way around everything.

also, the most annoying thing for me has always been fighting the high con fighters who warcry me and kill me with the paralyze.

if you think about it, pkill on this mud is also more about luck than it is about skill. it is about who gets in a paralyze. well, maybe it's less

about luck now that we don't have sanc and the wells have been removed :P thankd God for that.

[email protected]

From: Arsene Saturday, April 26, 05:18AM

Interesting topic. Speaking as a 20 mind dex/sniper who has taken on the 100mind dex monsters it is tough. Threshold is right when he says that ou attacks heave been weakend, numerous snipe weakenings have gone in. backs occasionally paralyzes but it is only a combat initializing special. H eadbutts suck(I am about 3 for 25 recently) because mages can tumble and h eadbutt as well as a fighter char ca warcry is not very reliable either If a mage gets in a stun on you he is pretty much garunteed the damge cap, and against a char that has no use for mind over 20 the mage is garunteed a stunfor only 20 mana which is oh 1/25 of a low mana mages's mana a stun fo very little mana

Currrent pkill when fighting a cause mage requires luck and a tulsi almost It wouldnt hurt to make the mana cost a bit higher. as for non pkill mage it doesnt take to long to regen mana.

With blind and stun being certainties for mages vs warriors a little balan would not hurt, after all it is the warrior class that has been hurt by most fixes anyways.

From: Lethargio Saturday, April 26, 08:01AM


Hmm, I dunno but i've been able to kill warriors, or at least do some bit of damage to them, but on the other hand I get wasted by high mind mages and only do about 100-150 hps at the most... and frankly missing because the person is fleeing doesn't really make a difference when you can stun them soon as you enter the room and keep him stunned to the end of the fight (happened to me once, got stunned over and over again)

Well, I don't know...lets see what changes the trees bring in and complain after that

From: Lethargio Saturday, April 26, 08:07AM

well you gotta keep in mind all the other things mages have... break trance, damage spells that does tons of damage, blind, recall, cure serious wounds...geeze, how are we suppose compete with that kind of stuff?

From: Lagmonster Saturday, April 26, 12:53PM

I think I agree with Irony in that pk seems to be a matter of luck more than anything else. Granted that me running into a mage and/or somebody with 200hps more than I do most usually spells death for me, it doesn't take too long for me to even out the odds with a single paralyze, be it from a headbutt or a warcry.

To have pkill based entirely on skill and stats would be silly--it'll take out the unexpected part of pk, like me doing less than 100 pts from 300 to 60 (my hps) and then doing 400 while at 60...

But I think we could do without stuns that last longer than 2 rounds, especially when we're stabbing at each other with 9 attacks and all. Or even make certain normal attacks possible to stun/wake mobs--bludgeonin for example, should be more stun-inducing than stabbing, which will be more waking. (think whips will be most effective at waking)

With a single stun taking away at least 60 points, and over a 100 when raging and with specials, it'll only take a 5 round stun to finish most people off... and when mages can land a stun almost for granted (at least if they initiate combat) stun should be downgraded, at least not to allow carry-over stuns.

From: Beam Saturday, April 26, 09:48PM

It all goes back to how its easier to make a nonmage.

Starting this mud as a new char making a new mage and learning words and balancing stats is much harder than making a surgeon or sniper in my opinion. If i was just a plain old barfighter from the 19th century i wouldnt mess with any 1000 year old mages :P

From: Lethargio Sunday, April 27, 07:07AM

hmm so thats the problem, mages are harder to make therefore they should be stronger then, guess thats whats throwing off the balance ...

From: Lagmonster Sunday, April 27, 08:09PM

given the rate in which people can make characters, and the ratio of hours spent creating vs. using, i think balance should never include how harder it is to create a certain type of character.. at least not to the degree here. Besides, I would think that time spent creating either type of character would be rather balanced, since getting eq takes about half the time of creation anyway.

From: Lethargio Monday, April 28, 11:09PM

one more thing I think is throwing off the balance is mages that can actually alter stats...such as the str spell, a mage wouldn't care if he/she was at 20 str because they can always cast a str spell, or if the person was a str fighter they could just stay at 90 str and cast str on themselves to save some stats for other things (what if someone casts a weaken spell?, well its almost if not a better risk to take than being clumsied) and mages also have idiocy, weaken, clumsy...some things that a non-mage wouldn't have access to.

well anyways, what I wanted to say was that mages get a better deal concerning stat wise, in my opinion...they shouldn't be able to add some str to themselves just because their mages...


From: Pegasus Tuesday, April 29, 04:51AM

Druids can clumsy, idiocy, weaken, and strength themselves, what's your point? Should everyone be mages by default? Will that make the game more balanced? Think about it, make use of what you've got and you can start complaining when the skill trees arrive, because i can't see any changes relating to spells and skills coming before then, apart from new spells :P


From: BokChoy Wednesday, April 30, 07:37PM

hey, lethargio, ANY character can have access to idiocy, weaken, and clumsy. and they can use a special to do it.

From: Lethargio Wednesday, April 30, 10:16PM

hmm, like throw maybe? yeah, sure that hits ALL the time, and it doesn't cost any rent either :P well, i'm gonna start complaining after the trees arrive, probably would be better then (i hope)

From: McDougan Saturday, May 17, 12:34PM

BLOODY HEEL! I hev a veery good coonshtetoosheen froom me drinkin, boot VE

From: McDougan Saturday, May 17, 12:36PM

BLOODY HEEL! I hev a veery good coonshtetoosheen froom me drinkin, boot VE VEERY< VEEERY< VEERY low deshteeritchy! I hev eightchy peershent o' me ma maximoom mind, nnd I be teerified t' shtun becooshe itch cauld bachlash nn nnd thnn I wauldna flee in time. Shoot oop ye bashteerdsh!

From: McDougan Saturday, May 17, 12:46PM

by th' way, I shee a multichibubble round shtunnin mebbe unshe a day atch th' mosht

From: McDougan Saturday, May 17, 12:48PM



1997 Topic Index