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Posted by Rufus on 08/06

Okay, seeing as I was online but forgot to log off, I caught most of the discussion in backscroll over mobs being 'in spec', 'out of spec' and what not.

In an ideal mud like Legend aims for, 50/50 chances with mobs of equal level is what all mobs would be. This will never happen. Players are too intelligent and with the current xp loss scale and xp scale, would make things too difficult.

The idea of making mobs harder than the standard level 50 mob is to make mobs for those who wish to group. Sure, these mobs are going to be solo'd. There are very few, if any, mobs on the mud that won't be solo'd. This has to do with player ingenuity and luck, mainly, but eventually someone will be able to say 'I solo'd X.'

Where the problem in game balance does arise is when a mob worth two or three times as much as a standard level 50 is routinely solo'd, nearly 90% of the time. That's a clear indication that the mob is either worth too much, or not hard enough. Not everyone is that lucky, not everyone should be guaranteed a 200K or 300K mob if they throw themselves against it. They are 200K or 300K because they're supposed to be twice to three times as hard as any other standard lvl 50 mob.

As to 'making new mobs instead of fixing old ones' the problem with that is if the new mobs are made to spec, and the old ones aren't, the old ones will get slaughtered all the time and the new ones never touched. I don't know how I could express that much more clearly.

As to the Shadowlands being a 'dumb idea' we have to support ALL types of players. Considering for the most part that I like to play solo, even with 50+ people online I never find myself without something to kill or something to do. But there is a small fraction of the mud who do like groups, who do like large groups, and that is what SL is intended for. And if devoting 50 rooms (that's all the bigger SL is folks, exactly 1/2 the size of a standard area) of a 3745 room mud is THAT big of a stretch, it could be just as well taken out. I intended to entertain those who did like those types of things (large groups, big risk, etc). I would like to say, 'it's 50 rooms, sheesh, go to canada if you don't like it' but I'll open it up for discussion.

So where does that leave us? Not that I'm exactly the do-all for this kind of decision making any more, but I'm more than willing to be on the firing line for the discussion.

Let's start by redefining the starting point. Okay 50/50 odds of a level 50 killing a standard level 50 mob (111K exp, one special that averages around 30 points of damage and/or some standard fight skills) is absurd, let's say that those mobs should be, for all characters across the board, 75% of the time that mob should be solo'd. Let me clarify a bit because of the current changes of system. Right now str fighters and con fighters do not do as well as dex fighters, so if a dex fighter can solo a mob 99% of the time, the other 24% difference is made up by those str and con who can't manage to accomplish the task as well.

So where does that leave 200-240K mobs? They should be solo'able around 37.5% of the time. Hrm. Seeing the number of people who routinely slaughter Diancecht, the rhino, lion, etc, I think this is a fair estimation, if not a bit on the low side.

And 300-350K mobs? 25% maybe.

Facts are, currently, we do not support mob levels above 50. That means for what they would normally make up in hitroll and natural hps, we have to compensate for, if we intend to have mobs worth more than a measly 111K. They do not 'con' any harder normal mobs, but 'judge' will often give away that they will be harder (mainly the hp comparison line). The majority of over 111K mobs in the game currently (excluding shadowlands) are soloable to a major degree of the time, and shouldn't be.

I do not support the 'forcing of grouping' idea at all, provided you're fighting mobs of your level (and if level 50, a mob not worth more than 111K). However people want mobs that need grouping, that are smarter and more dangerous than other mobs, so we compensate with more experience. If those mobs are solo'd occassionally, cool, you got lucky, you were smart, you had great strategy. If they're solo'd all the time with little risk of death, they aren't worth more than 111K and either should be moved to 111K or they should be a wee bit tougher (or a lot tougher in some cases). And there will always be mobs that are easier for one group or another. I refuse to make dumb animals really smart (hence the reduction of the bear in canada's mind and the reluctance to change the lion or the rhino) because a lot of that seems really meaningless. Those mobs have icky specials (except the bear, I know) or multiple attacks that occassionally make up for the fact that they spend 90% of their short time on the earth getting the message 'You are stunned, but will probably recover.'

So hrm, what to say in conclusion... I've made 3 areas so far. The first was an area with a wide range of mob levels, a few really big mobs, lots of midrange, quite a few low to mid range mobs as well. That area hardly gets visited because as soon as one can get 100 dex, they head straight for the lvl 45-50 mobs. The second area I made was intended to be 'off the scale.' There were difficult areas, but nothing non-soloable, so I made that. It is a mere 1.3% of the mud's total mob/room population. The other area was almost the near opposite, where for 99% of the mobs I capped the level I could create them at at level 5. The latter of the two areas (perhaps proximity, perhaps content) get tons more traffic than the first.

So let's open it up, discuss, air your views. And don't, for a minute, accuse me of not listening. The changes that I recently made were because of what I was hearing from players, the changes I made to the nucklavee recently, were due to player complaints. Complain, I might fix, I might argue, but let's discuss this.


From: Orca Tuesday, August 05, 04:30PM

Hmm, are you talking about a % chance you'll be able to kill certain mobs otherwise dying or in fleeing to come back and try another time? Cos, well.. with xp loss so high you need to kill 100k mobs like 95% of the time just to break even (exluding xp loss in fleeing) if you were to die 5% of the time..

Whatever.. i wouldn't care if it took longer to level if death didn't set you back so far.

As for Shadowlands, well.. I kinda prefer how the Dis Keeper is, it takes about the same size group to do him but doesn't take hours to get there and back plus it's not impossible to "attempt" him solo.. If them darn hounds weren't in the way i'd have tried skatha and the shade by now... mmm, anyways.. that's not really my gripe with it but the time involved and the rarity of groups doing SL that really don't want to use and feel reliant on items from there. (especially as mobs don't tform) -grin- Heck i spent 24 mil xp and 40 or so hours in that place and only got a Gay-bolg out of it which i gave away soon after.. Sure the rewards are better now but i won't be back til it can be done in less than an hour with a group of 4-5.

From: Rufus Tuesday, August 05, 04:59PM

Oh just for the record... the record time for an SL group is about 1:45 mins with 6 people. 5 hitters, one fully loaded druid.

I thought about making it harder after that, but I decided that the 24 million exp, 250K gold and all the nice items were a decent reward for such organization and persistence.


From: Densiva Tuesday, August 05, 06:30PM

why did you just make different mobs? you have to mess with everything that was fun about this game? well if your going to make my life miserable, im going to damn well make sure your is too. and if this sounds angry, its because, i am.


From: Densiva Tuesday, August 05, 06:32PM

Rufus ever stop to think that thos that shoot and run, such as I, have to shoot and flee mobs because we are unable to tank anything?

never occured to you did it? its obvious be the changes you have been making to mobs for that last 6 months or so.

lets see how well you do with a sniper/character when you try to level to 50.

From: Rufus Tuesday, August 05, 06:35PM

we're in the process of making new mobs. We're also in the process of balancing old ones.

As I said in my initial post, if the new mobs are balanced and the old ones aren't, only the old ones will get killed.


From: Rufus Tuesday, August 05, 06:36PM

Re: sniper - hit/run tactics

There are still TONS of mobs out there that you can solo. The thing about snipers and hit/runners is that they were able to kill mobs greater than level 50 at the same or less risk than most people can killing straight level 50's. That doesn't exactly seem fair. They can still take most straight level 50's at a lessened risk, but the chance for shoot/fleeing a > lvl 50 mob should at least be at the same risk as a normal person tanking a straight level 50.

And I have had a sniper level to 50 within the last 6 months. I spent the majority of my time killing mobs at least a level below and it was a funny thing, I rarely had to heal, and they died a lot faster. Sure I didn't get huge numbers when I was awarded exp, but being able to kill 5 50K mobs with the same loss as a 100K mob, well, the math just worked out in my favor.

As to the 'unable to tank anything'... the normal level 50 char with 50 perception (not 80-100 as snipers usually carry) does 1.5 to 2 times as much damage to a mob while tanking. Considering most straight level 50's have between 300 and 500 hps (with exceptions here and there based on whether or not they have good eq, etc) and considering most 50th level fighter/sniper/etc have at least 300 hps, there are very few that can't tank a straight level 50 with reasonable chances of success.

Of course snipers can't tank 200K mobs. Non-sniper hp monsters generally shouldn't be able to tank them solo either.


From: Lethargio Tuesday, August 05, 06:45PM

ok, i don't know how the new systems gonna work, but I have one thing... lets see, about the fight system, your talking about straight just fighter s, right? What about the druids and surgeons? they have to sacrifice some stats in order to do their stuff (especially druids), but do they get anyt hing from the spr or mind they have? not really...except for maybe entranc e that doesn't do anything, really are healers destined to be weaklings wh o can't fight at all? just wanna check...

From: Kodiak Tuesday, August 05, 08:46PM

I dont mean to be nosie(sp) about the 1:45 minute run through SL, but can you answer one thing for me? Did you or any of the immortals participate in that run? I am sure the reply is going to contain something to the effect that it is really none of my business, etc... but I have been to SL twice, and just dont see how a group can go through there without knowing a thing or two about the area that any rookie group could never figure out. I understand that maybe the group just had experience in the area, but was curious how the 1:45 was accomplished.


From: Rufus Tuesday, August 05, 08:58PM

I was the healer, and as it came out, I actually didn't even come close to running out of herbs. The tank was reasonably new to the area, but all 5 hitters/etc had rage and 3 had warcry.

And if it's any consolation, i think I've lost more exp in SL between my characters (I think the total's around 100 mil exp lost or something like that) and about 80% of my strategies for defeating the area have been by learning from non-imms who played there. I stopped dying a lot after I got some of their strategies down.


From: Rufus Tuesday, August 05, 09:16PM

Sayyid Said, the Laibon, and all other savanna mobs have been returned more or less to their previous state.

From: Rufus Tuesday, August 05, 09:28PM

After next reboot, all lvl 50 mobs in india will reflect document standards for maximum exp, hp and abilities of a level 50 mob.


From: Rufus Tuesday, August 05, 10:00PM

Okay, let's try a new approach... currently I'm responsible for maintainence of the following areas:

India, Ireland, Seoni, North Africa/Casablanca, Shadowlands, FiWar Klein, savanna, and south seas.

If you have any problems, suggestions, etc with anything in these areas, mudmail me and I will do my best to please you, though I will not go above, beyond, or outside the spec of the docs TO THE LETTER to alter anything in these areas.


From: Faramir Tuesday, August 05, 10:06PM

About the sniper thing...when i actually had eq -which i lost for a stupid reason, but thats not what i'm here to talk about- i could solo about anything shoot fleeing. The thing is, this is only really useful when going for eq mobs, not exp. With me fleeing constantly, i lost alot of ex exp, and was happy when i broke even or gained a little even. I have to group stuff if i actually want exp for it, and i have 600 hp. I don't know about snipers with low hp, i think it would really sucks though. I could solo rachael -and i know this isn't uncommen- but i did it with 97 dex and 77 perc and my gun/dagger. I did it without my tunic of flame pretty much, and was lucky if i lost half my hp. Now remember, this is getting 8 attacks and only using sharpshooter. Thing is, i lost anywhe anwhere from 100k-200k doing it, but then she's worth alot too. I think snipers are fun, the only thing about em that sucks is healing. I'd rather be a mage for the simple fact, with 1 hp/mana, my old cause mage -everyone knows who:P- could heal his extremely high mana and average hp in a max of maybe 15 or 20 min. I can't heal my hp in an hour unless i carry around 10k worth of spam eq. He could make 500k an ex exp run solo in about 5 min, heal up and do it again with 100 con/mind. When he went dex it was even easier. I don't think in this case you should tone down mages...i think maybe instead of toneing down like you love to do, why don't you tone snipers up? I know its a scary idea, but it might work and be fun at the same time. I don't know how, but couldn't you make em heal faster or something? Maybe make first aid a lower prereq stats or something? I hate first aid, getting 12's is okay, but i'm luck lucky to get 1 or 2 healing 600 hp. I get plenty of 1's though I realy don't have many ideas of how to make snipers heal faster, but I think it would be a cool thing to look into. Come to think of it, this is kinda off the subject of the whole post in the first place isn't it:P Oh well, jsut a few ideas to think about, since theres finally an imm thats LISTENING to morts ideas. Many hear, few listen, but even fewer actually consider....

-Faramir, the eqless due to a stupid mud feature.

From: Ulric Wednesday, August 06, 12:09AM

hm.. while everyone is complaining how their character isnt as good anymore.. let me add my 2 cents -cackle-. Umm.. just be me for a day, a con create mage. I couldnt begin to solo many of the tougher level 50 mobs, and I am a pretty good mage. Its amazing how beefed up cause is compared to create, our attack spells are not as good, our healing is inferior now, elementals are neat, but even when I wax suger with em by myself, I only get about 120k or so for 30 minutes of time summoning them and meditating.

Ultimatly, all I am saying is that this mud isnt new, people sit around and figure out the best char combo they can make.. well its no suprise there are a million cause dex mages now, and it wasnt a suprise when there were a million snipers back in their glorious days of id. I'm not exactly sure if more level 50 mobs are the answer, how about more 40-49 mobs that could yield maybe greater returns in xp for a little more time spent. Hmm, its ironic that with 54 people on the mud, I'm the only create mage on.. dontcha think?

Ulric who wishes he was cause :P

From: Eol Wednesday, August 06, 12:42AM

I appreciate all the time spent onmobs, Heck, I Like to die occasionally. I like group and solo fighting, solo a bit more cuz we all like to seewhat wecan do. I complain alot someotimes Iknow. Justdont think I or most of thepeople dont appreciate what isdone by you and others, we may not see eyeto eye, but I dont think anyone is trying to screwthemud. But I do disagree with some of the changes. The main ones are about mob specials that are fail proof. Example I use alot is rachael, she can have 2or 3 specials a round, and they dont miss. Make them hardwith tons of, hp or specails that can fail. If they have 100 in each stat , fine, even 110 as some do. but make the rollsfor their specials depend on something. If playerscanget unlucky, or lucky ,mobs should to.

side note-dex fighters arent the only good chars, yeah dexfighters are easier to use and maybe overpowered, but with tactcis others are usable. Ihave seen and been non-dex and pulled off good solos,etc...

From: Sandra Wednesday, August 06, 01:00AM

The changes to Said, and Laibon will go in with the next reboot along with the changes to india.

From: Aeolus Wednesday, August 06, 01:02AM

Response to append 10 on message 30:
The mobs have not reverted back to normal yet....
Therefore, be careful with Sayyid Said, the Laibon and the other Savanna mobs :)
I think they're suppossed to be reverted to normal
After the next reboot..:) (correct me if I'm wrong here:)
-- Aeolus

From: Shiva Wednesday, August 06, 01:09AM

First off lemme state, I refuse to go into any of Rufus' area's anymore, even those he is strictly maintaining. He is an immort whos word i cannot trust. According to his append above the mobiles in zanzibar and savanahh "were" returned to how they were previously which is plainly a lie. After almost dying and killing Said's guards because I kept freezing everytime I started to attack. I healed and then tried Said After Said shut and locked the doubledoors so i couldn't flee I died, a loss of 2 Million exp and a waste of several hours of my time. No matter how sincere he might be sorry that will not reimburse the time I spent trying to work on this character nor will it set me back to where I was before my death.

Secondly the big thing causing problems was not with characters soloing mobiles, it was the fact that people with little dex could not do anything because of flee, and all (with exception of warcry) combat skills hit chances based solely on dex and perc. As an example is headbutt which was changed to a "con" skill. Anything with a better dex than you will 90% of the time dodge the attack even if you are 30 levels higher than the mobile. You are looking for an answer by making the mobiles tougher, which is going to cause nothing but player disruption and disgruntlement. The way you are going to cease player complaints about this person being able to do this or that because they can shoot/flee, or kick/flee is by changing the basis of flee. And as for the 100k exp supposed to be for each level 50 mobile you can solo keep in mind everytime that you die you add another 20 mobiles at 100k that you're supposed to kill right on top of the exp that was needed beforehand, and to be perfectly honest, there aren't that many reasonable 100k mobiles that are out there.

That's about all I have to say


From: Rufus Wednesday, August 06, 03:32AM

Okay, I reimbursed shiva his 2 million exp for his death as I was not clear on my append that the changes wouldn't happen until reboot. They have happened now.

Anyone else who died to said, laibon, rhino, lion or a leopard during that period is entitled to a reimburse (that is, between the time of my post and the time the mud was rebooted).


From: Rufus Wednesday, August 06, 03:49AM

btw, only bother me about the reimb, my screwup, the admins or whoever else shouldn't have to deal with it.


From: Pegasus Wednesday, August 06, 06:18AM

Hmm, Shiva stole most of what i had to say about xp loss etc. If mobs we enjoy killing reach the point when there's no point trying to solo, we can only hope xp loss is somewhat more forgiving once the eventual changes and skill trees arrive. I, like many others, no longer find fun in trying to kill hard to solo mobs, because it's coming to a point when there's less than 1% of a chance of doing so (and of course, thats because "you're not meant to kill them"). Well, i thought i might post what i would define as a fun to kill mob, but then i relealized something, is there such a thing? Maybe i've just come to the point when i find killing mobs more of a chore, than anything else. Making mobs continually harder means nothing, if people aren't going to have fun killing them. People wouldn't have to go all out and get 100dex just to kill level 50 mobs if there were sufficient mobs to kill in the mid level range, which were worth decent xp. Like, lets use Will 'o the green, he's what, level 40? 38 ? somewhere around there, and his xp is?

Well, in one word, piddly. Of course, he isn't much of a monster, but should mobs be monsters in order to provide decent amounts of xp at that should mobs be monsters in order to provide decent amounts of xp at that current level you're at? He should at least give around 10k for someone around his level, and half as much for people who are level 50. I'm not sure what the entire problem is with the current system, but making mobs harder, reducing/increasing mob difficulty/xp etc just isn't helping. It reminds me of playing tetris: It's fun at first, it's unknown to you, it requires some strategies and then with a bit of time you soon figure out how all the blocks fit together, and you're getting a much larger score each time. In the end, no matter what changes are made ie. blocks falling faster, random disasters, starting with blocks already down etc, the game is still going to be boring, you can keep making it more challanging/ harder, but the fun factor just isn't going to increase. I hope some of what i said made sense, 'cause it took long enough to write, all i can say is, making mobs harder isn't going to appeal to me and many others out there, people will always find other mobs to kill by picking on their weak spots, which will in turn be made harder, and the cycle continues till boredom totally sets in, and they end up leaving.

Please append what you would define as a fun-to-kill mob, which is balanced, if there is such a thing.


From: Tyche Wednesday, August 06, 07:49AM

First off, I don't think how often an area is visited is based on age or mob level/difficulty as it is on "popularity". In which I mean where you see most highlevels going to for xp and equipment. It's just where they're used to going and were shown or heard that the mobs were somewhat easy to kill. When somebody begins to go to an unused area consistently, others notice and make a mental note to do the same, and is soon added to their xp runs or for eq. As long as I've played, I've seen very few peopl ever going to Egypt, except for the occasional newbie to get killed there. Recently I've included a mob there in my xp runs and have seen an increase of people killing that mob, yet I don't think it has changed since the are area went in.

Dex fighters... This character has been, and always will be a con fighter. I have only 50 dex and 40 perc, yet many of you have been grouped with me and know that I'm at least a decent fighter. I can solo my share of good xp mobs, yet I'm a surgeon and do even better in groups.

Mob difficulty. Yes, many mobs are being made more difficult, but others have been made easier. Bane, Nucklavee, and Mystic (which was changed once long ago and again recently) are a few examples. All of which were nearly impossible to kill tanking, especially with the decline of healers lately. I do agree with most of the changes that have gone in, and am tired of people whining about not being able to solo every mob worth 200k+ xp.

I don't have much more to say except remember to help those newbies. Most really appreciate the help and only want to know how to play.

Always insane, yet in his right mind,


From: Asilidae Wednesday, August 06, 12:02PM

First of all i dont see how you can say that there should be a certain % of success or failure ibn soloing a mob ....

Some players rock MUCH more then others ... like they have the same stats at level 50 but one got 550 hp and the other got 300 hp.

Then the one with the high hp will be able to kill almost the double of the lower one ... thats actually one thing that I appreciate about this mud ... the most important is to play your char's stats and have 100 con as soon as possible (level 1-3 ... 5 if you are new at it)

Of course that will be screwed with the new system where a total loser can get to level 50 and change his loser eq to some good eq and have exactly as much hp as one of the real players, a thinker who plans what stats his char shall have to get all good skills/spells and how to get max hp

Some complain that Mages can get to much xp because they can solo rhino, lion, elephant, tiger .... and a few other mobs and get like 550k xp in 10 minutes. Well thats true, but then they have to wait for repop/competition from other mages, and other types of chars can make just as much xp!!

If they where designed properly! lLikethe Faramir type or any other of the non-mage chars who rock (pet faramir ... im saying some nice things about you :))

So stop complaining about 'this-kind-of-char' can solo this and that and i cant. Well thats because you eighter got a lousy char or try to kill the wrong mobs!!!

And dont make it so that a looser can get some hp as a 'thinker' on level 50. Make it so that the ones who know all kinds of chars, all the mobs and all the req. for skills/spells can make a much greater char with much more hp and really rock ... it should take 2-3 chars to get a good one.


PS: Pkill is only fun as long as you loose something when you die .... if not people dont care if they die/kill! 1 hour = 1 mil xp, so stop complaining -cackle-


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