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Posted by Croaker on 08/14

This is a response to some of the views and issues raised in the previous post and appends (some good, some bad).

To Orca, re: SL being too hard (said he won't go back until it can be done in under an hour with4-5 people)

Great ! SL is supposed to be an area like that ! Not everyone wants areas that everyone can solo (some prefer areas like SL that have to be done in large groups). This area is for those people. There are plenty of areas for people like you (and me, incidentally) who prefer solo action.

To Densiva: re: accusing Rufus of trying to destroy all the fun in the game - Rufus and all the immortals are working to make this more fun for the majority. Some may not like the changes. If so, there are a large numbers of muds out there where you can play. COnsider this an invitation to leave and find one (or try to adapt and understand that the changes aren't directed at you, they're for the good of the mud as a whole).

To Leth: re; spirit having no combat skills - an idea is being kicked around (championed by yours truly) to move warcry success to being a spirit based skill when the new fight system comes in and headbutt moves to con. If you like this idea, lobby for it and it may happen.

To Rufus: re: removing the changes made to Savannah mobs - I'm a little disappointed, here. Although I make extensive use of those mobs for leveling purposes with my morts (exploiting them, as it were) I was looking forward to the challenge of finding a new way to exploit them :) Sorry you changed them

To Ulric: re: Create sucks - My best charcter (one of the most powerful in the game) is a create mage, and can solo nearly every mob in the game including rachael, Dew/Sune in combo, Hell solo, etc. It's application of the character, not thestats or spells that is important.

To Eol: re: mob specials being overpowered - I happen to agree with you that in some cases the specials are too much and the mobs could be improved with some thought and strategy changes. However, this is far from easy. I am writing mobs for an area now, and it is _very_ difficult to balance all the concerns. Big specials are a quick way to make the mob harder. I think in the future, builders should take good suggestios like yours to heart when designing mobs, and efforts like those of Rufus recently to upgrade and revamp some old mobs which don't conform are already underway.

To Pegasus: re: XP loss - you've hit on a verygood point, and one which is under intense discussion among the immort staff. I think the new XP scale and changes to mob XP will change much of this. I am told that implementing the XP scale (and copies of it can be found in an old LT - like last October or something) will be first proirity after the new fight system goes in, so we can xpect to see something in the next month or two.

To Tyche: re: post - thanks for writing a thoughtful and reasonable post ! We have had so few of theses lately. Most posts are self-centered complaints about why the changes affect _my_ character and miss the whole picture of the mud as a community and as a gaem which needs constant improvements to stay fresh and interesting.

My two cents (and don't blame the other imms if you don't like what I said :P)


From: Charity Wednesday, August 06, 11:03AM

Druids will eventually be getting an entangle skill, which will let them use plants in combat in various ways (elemental-style mobs, one time damage, duration-of-combat effects, etc are all possible, but not definite). These would probably not be usable indoors, but I will add kelp or seaweed or something so entangle can be used underwater. 'Entangle' is an awful skill name btw, if anyone has better ideas for this...

It's somewhat rash to promise a timeframe on code changes. The new xp scale was one of four things on a list of stuff that could go in independantly of skill trees... the fight stuff currently being worked on is another. We can't really give schedules for anything past the current project... I know it's not terribly helpful to tell you 'fight stuff will be done when it's done' but that's basically the case. We also have to expect that future coding priorities like the xp scale may get reshuffled with new coders and/or the imps spearheading the coding department's efforts.

As to warcry... I find this very out of place for spirit characters. Warcry could be seen (and on this mud generally has beens een) as a chivalric skill, a la Henry V's 'God for Harry, England, and St.George!' I can accept this idea, but I think warcry is even more appropriate for berserker-style warriors, who will be more distinct from the chivalric warriors under skill trees. If entangle is not enough for spirit combat, I would prefer to see a new set of combat skills developed that make sense for spirit characters with a high nature axiom, rather like gunplay and surgery are two very different disciplines but equally logically derived from perception and a high technology axiom.

From: Beam Wednesday, August 06, 12:41PM

Some of you immorts have a lot of nerve even thinking of telling people to go find another mud. It seems everyones opinion becomes very important after they immort. The excuse seems to be that players don't have valid opinions about a mud because they have to play it. This is where the comments like, you players can't make decisions about the mud because you'll ruin it. Well you immorts play the mud also, and there has been some pretty stupid changes. Its the right of anyone who cares about a mud to bitch about things they don't like, without having to hear someone tell them to leave if they don't like it. I think the idea is whoever is making the stupid changes should leave.

What this mud misses is Ptah, and all the downhill stuff has occured for the most part after he quit doing as much. I was surprised to hear people say rufus was the best builder ever when he quit, really surprised, the best builder hands down is Ptah. It was just a few days ago that i was complaining about mob specials and making the mobs to hard, using silly techniques.

If your worried about ppl getting xp to easily, then you should make the level comparison things more strict. So that those under 50 will have a harder time, and leave 50's alone. And no this isn't any advantage cuz xp isn't anything special after you get 50. But what you have done is made changes that have been unpopular from day one, and hello, I don't hear anyone saying how wonderful they are. Changes like sanc rings, tara wells, recall failures, reduction of mob xp, more specials, and the list goes on.

How dare you touch seoni, it is one of the best areas in the mud. Rufus i'm not sad to see you step down from the headbuilder job, thats not a nice thing to say, but hey most of the changes I don't agree with have either been done by you or while you were head builder. Im sure your a nice person and all, but yes in my opinion, making sure anyone is super lucky to be able to get more than 111k xp from a mob, is sucking the life out of the mud. The mud WAS better with sanc rings, and with wells, for god's sake chant meue drva ex the changes we need both to kill the hard stuff. Yah you imms are trying to make things better and your efforts are appreciated, but they are just that efforts. Making an effort to improve the mud doesn't mean that it automatically improves in the same way that becoming an immortal doesn't automatically make you a genius.

Some people asked for a copy of the mud to be released a year or so ago, other than some neat areas being added since then, the mud would be better off in my opinion. The reason I wrote this wasn't some selfish reason, I wrote it because one of the last great areas had not been infected with this crap, was tampered with. The crap being squeezing every last bit of fun worth more than 111k out of the mud. Its just sad that Ptah has left the upkeep of his areas, and the mud to a degree to others. As for inviting me to go try another mud, I do, regularly.

From: Rufus Wednesday, August 06, 04:23PM

How dare I touch seoni?

'Savanna' ... 'Seoni'

I didn't.


From: Tyche Wednesday, August 06, 05:06PM

The mud, at least by me, has never been known for it's enjoyability just for it's areas and mobs. It was always the friendliness of players (imms and morts alike). I still see some of it, but not nearly as much as our reputation implies. None of the changes to the mud have made me want to leave, or spit in some immorts face or just go making it hard on others. But I do miss the willingness to help that's harder to find now.


From: Croaker Wednesday, August 06, 05:35PM

In response to Beam: re: immorts don't have the right to complain about players - I object to the statement made by Densiva in his post: 'Well, if you're going to make my life miserable, I'm going to damn well make sure yours is, too.' in reference to changes Rufus made in the Savannah area. I feel no qualms at all saying that if he feels this way (i.e. that immort on this mud are plotting against him and making changes just to make his life miserable - how paranoid) that perhaps he would be more comfortable in a different setting.

As to your comments on Rufus's revamping of the Savannah, you might want to read a post ion the discussion board you made a little while ago (post 24) where you railed at the immorts for using specials to beef up mobs instead of making 'a mob that had some nice skills, hunted, didn't cheat or use specials, was hard' - this is a direct quote from you. Well, if you bothered to check what Rufus did, he changed a few mobs to make them closer in toughness to what their XP worked out as. He gave them skills, hunt, and some intelligent acts like waking their helpers. He did EXACTLY what you asked for, yet here you are bitching about it. It boggles my mind.


From: Myriad Wednesday, August 06, 07:00PM

I agree with Beam's statement that it is an inappropriate response to tell players to go away because they get passionate about the changes that are being made. I think that if this mud is going to support the freedom speech idea that it seems to want to..then well..then more tolerance needs occur. I think its statements of that type (if you dont like it mud elsew anti-player sentiments that really devalue those who have strong opinions I also think sending out insults to players by saying they are selfish and think of how the game changes affect their own players is along the same lines..of anti player sentiment. I think the writers were trying to explain their positions more clearly by giving examples of how their characters have been affected by the changes.

I dont think it means they are selfish but rather they care enough to put into words as clearly as they can why they object to the changes. I don't always agree with the way different people (imms and players) alik express their sentiments...but I think the mud would be a happier place if all opinions were respected not written off because they were emotional or croaker says "self-centered".


From: Densiva Wednesday, August 06, 07:32PM

nice to know im not the only one that feels this way.


oh and Croaker can eat my shorts because i aint going anywhere untill this war is over! -tackle Croaker--duck-

-- Densiva --

From: Croaker Wednesday, August 06, 09:51PM

:P Densiva

From: Beam Wednesday, August 06, 10:04PM

The reason I seemingly contradicted myself was, I logged on and found out so and so mobs have been changed, laibon, said etc. Sorry if they aren't actually in Seoni, laibon feels seoni sorta. My main objection is that sometimes what players say are used in the worst way. Ie nuckclaves being made lots harder to solo with a fleeing method having his hp raised and some special attacks removed. Basically this kinda is the worst of all worlds, cuz he can't be soloed hardly at all now, but I have never seen this mob or fought it and its been added recently etc etc. If you carefully read my complaints about specials it was that they are used by builders in a poor attempt to make mobs harder. Never did i ask for mobs to be made harder all over the mud, especially not mobs that I think are fine as is. Ie laibon, yah he can be easy but can do some mean stuff to you.

What needs to be done is fix all of these mobs with silly specials, not go around messing with- mobs that are fine.

If there is anything wrong with said or laibon I think all the other mobs should be fixed first. I dare not ever talk about mobs that are easy xp on here or surely they will get upgraded. Thats how it feels anyway. Where has the big xp run always been, industrial right, and why? because there was good xp there, most other areas people do are for reasons other than xp for the most part. The laibon is one of the best built mobs around, he fights fair and is hard and yes making him hunt would be ok I guess, but the mud is moving too much this way already in my opinion. Pretty soon you will need someone with you to kill any level 50 mob, and im sorry dying half the time to a mob of the same level just won't work with 2 million xp loss, not with the mobs the way they are now. A very good test in my opinion would be if the mob is soloable by a level 50 with 600 hp tanking doing nothing spectacular then yes giving them hunt would be good.

Think for a sec why the laibon is worth the xp he is, probably because all of the things he can do to you, all player type spells and skills no specials or cheats. Thats how mobs should be. I never got to see the specific changes made to these mobs, but when mobs that I think are some of the fairest etc are messed around with while theres all these silly mobs around with specials that can seriously whack you out fast and aren't worth decent xp, it just really gets to me.

Basically I stand by what I said in an earlier post, a lot of the new areas hard mobs are ridiculous, the standard thats being set just isn't as fun. If people are leveling to fast there has to be a better way to slow them down, other than making the high level mobs impossible for all. On most muds you attack a mob 10 levels higher than you and you almost never hit them. I think this is done with ac, thac0 and hitroll. More thought needs to go into this making any mob worth more than 111k unsoloable and how to go about it i think.

And on a slightly different issue someone brought up making hp only dependant on how much con your wearing at the time. They said this was a bad thing and I agree wholeheartedly, it takes all the skill out of making a good character. Finding con and wearing it till level 50 is a huge pain, but its part of making a good character.

Some people object to people switching to dex after they level up. I agree this is bad but there must be a better solution, something like whatever con you wear at each level adds to your max and min chant vina drva ex possible, the more the better and as long as your wearing hitpoints that you can have, the more you wear the better you are off each level and you keep your max hitpnts as long as your wearing 100 con, but if you remove it then you lose the benefit, maybe not all of it but lose enough to make the effort of wearing con somewhat worthwhile but not out of balance. The sad thing is, that everyone always complained about monster chars spamming con at each level, but personally I was never able to get much con eq for this purpose, I stayed con till lvl 49 and am still a better char for con than dex, its just that dex is so much better than con. This is just as important as screwy mobs so I hope to hear some response about it also.

From: Ulric Thursday, August 07, 02:57AM

Croaker- I'm curious who this 'one of the most powerful chars in the game' create mages is... power is a relative term. Like I said before, I can kill suger and nath by myself.. but with summoned creatures, is that considered solo by your terms as well? Cause is more powerful, esp under the new system with spells such as bless, idiocy, cure critical, armor, strength, clumsy, etc etc..

I am a fairly good create mage, and I am very weak compared to cause mages that are almost the same. Another thing you didnt regard is the fact that I'm con, and con and dex have nothing to do with magic. Cause, as a school of magic, is more useful in anything combat related -this is a combat mud right?- than create as a school of magic. I have more fun with lotsa goofy spells, but when it comes to combat, I have very few choices that cause doesnt already have - etheric void, flamestrike are nice granted.. but hardly make up for the 10 or so great spells the other school (cause remember?) has. This point is obvious.. and most everyone agrees with me (the one person who sorta disagree'd later agreed anyway) Since its a general mud concensus..

why am I having to make the point again? I'm not having this huge complaint about it, just wanted to simply _prove_ that create is gettin the shaft :P con and dex have nothing to do with this.

Lord ulric, who doesnt fight much anyways cause lords dont have to prove anything anyways :P ps, I think spirit warcry is a good idea.. but sorta wierd :P

From: Lethargio Thursday, August 07, 05:12AM

er, beam, some people don't have several hundred hours more to spend on a new char...and heck, look at me, I hardly ever con leveled, and I really d hate myself, because i can't do anything except for operate :P

so...its sort of like only the people who know how to make chars can have fun then?

From: Zelda Thursday, August 07, 06:25AM

I agree with Lethargio on this and I totally disagree with Beam and Asilid er and Asilidae :). In my opinion the dependence of final stats on what was worn to level is an absolute disaster and THE biggest problem of all time on the mud, responsible indirectly for a whole host of other problems, and its removal will be the best and most significat change ever made. Con fighters were supposed to end up with more to more hps to balance other disadvantages as fighters (doh) and I find the idea that players should be rewarded for finding cheesy ways to defeat features that were put in to balance the game quite absurd.

The use of level gear has caused players to see the entire process of building a character as some kind of nuisance to be got through as quickly as possible with all the attention paid to the end product, and none to how the character is played along the way. It is indirectly responsible for characters expecting and demanding to be walked through stat quests at low levels, all newbie gear other than con and mind being seen as useless except to borrow to learn spell words, newbies being encouraged not to even wield a weapon so as to make more space for level gear, newbies demanding to be leveled by others because they 'have' to wear gear unsuitable for fighting, people demanding equip because they 'must' have it to level, cross-play where players use the trade favours from their high-level characters for help with their newbies etc etc etc...again those who are most obnoxious and willing to cross-play or harass others to do their work for them end up getting rewarded with a better character.

When I was building my first 'serious' character and my clanned characters I was encouraged by more experienced players to throw away my weapon, all my ac gear and everything except mind and con, and make become totally helpless and dependent on others all for the sake of a better end product. The result was extra hps at the cost of all of the enjoyment and challenge of building a character. I just can't wait for this particular change to come in, and for those who lose lots of hps nah nah, haha, sucked in, serves you right :P

Zelda, the annoying little -&%$#-- -smirk-

From: Zelda Thursday, August 07, 08:46AM

Oops that append was meant to be under msg 30 but I was following Lethargio's append ;)


From: Stradivari Thursday, August 07, 01:24PM

Okie - a couple of things ... First, spirit-based warcry? I have never heard of warcrying druids. Sorry. I can't even imagine it. I always thought of druid-types (high spirit people) as non-fighters, which means they heal, not fight. I think strength-based warcry would be kewl. Hey, if some big guy run at me screaming, I would poop in my pants. A prestige modifier would be kewl too. If some famous warrior run after me, I would be pretty scared too, no matter what his size is. I am a con create mage with a pretty nasty warcry at times. Warcry based on constitution? Hrm. I don't really imagine 33 strength mages rushing into melee combat either.

Next, the new fight system. I agree with Zelda. I'm kinda tired of seeing new chars loaded with con and mind equipment and NO weapon. I personally don't like helping newbies level because of the people who depend on others to fight for them (so they can get high hp and ma). And I also hate it when the people I help (a lot) brag about how their hp and ma are higher than mine. I really don't care. I manage fairly well as a mage and like my char a lot. That's all that matters, right? Well, I have more to say, but I will save it for another time.

Stradivari and the Mango of Holiness =P

From: Orca Thursday, August 07, 02:06PM

damn, such a huge thread I've forgotten most of what I was gonna say.. -ponder- well, in response to Croaker, sure I like to do things solo most the time and there should be areas or mobs that require a group and SL achieves this well apart from a couple of things.. the size of the group and time needed to get through the area is just too much. I won't even use an item from there as once i scrap or lose it somehow i'd have to rearrange my eq as i'm sure not gonna be able to replace it within a few hours, I'd have to post on the board to 'arrange' an SL trip or something. Oh yeah, I also didn't find it fun at all as i was just tagging along as a surgeon. -yawn- operating for 1 hour is enough for anyone but 2-3. -flop-

Oh yeah, I didn't get to try many but the changes Rufus made to certain mobs recently sounded good? I love hunting mobs (well, apart from eq scrapping Herne), the dhurtah was the the only mob to really get my pulse racing in all the time I've been here. As for the change to Sayyid, I attempted to do the same to someone in pkill once, (lock the door) and those are the kind of things i'd like to see in mobs, the only prob is it's one of those things that you learn the hard way from.. I don't like that but if more mobs used nasty tricks (that didn't mean certain death) one would start taking precautions as they tried new mobs. Mmm, anyways just rambling now and pkill calls -grin-

From: Chaykin Thursday, August 07, 02:37PM

From: Beam Thursday, August 07, 07:09PM

Well to lethargio, this was about the 4th high level char I made, if you don't have time to make another char then your obviously stuck with what you have now. Learning how to make a good char isn't hard as its one of the favorite topics of discussion. And anyway you can have fun not killing anything at all, which is what I usually do.

As for Zelda I think I must have failed to explain well enuf or something, I have never been in favor of leveling eq, ie running around and borrowing con and mind etc. I got my own con stuff and wore it ALL the time, as for cheesy ways to defeat features im not sure what you mean, probably not using a weapon and holding something con. I don't see how this is defeating a feature, its how the mud was made and things have been done to reduce it. Right now con fighters suck, im using dex stuff now, but im a con fighter as 60 con 50 dex will attest. When the fight system is fixed I will use con eq and won't be losing any hitpoints or mana. When things are fixed it will be more absurd for someone to creep a char up to 50 then get some con gear and suddenly have 600hp. If anyone doesn't like someone spamming con gear or running and doing quests, tell them so, don't help them. I don't think its a good argument to say that some people go to a lot of trouble to make chars, trouble you don't want to do, and just say its bad for the mud. Making a really good char should involve a bit of work and ingenuity. My brother made a char here and I didn't tell him everything to do or help him along the way and it turned out very average, as it should have. There seems to be a lot of I want a con char with 600 hitpoints but I don't want to do anything special to get it. What next no cast levels on spells? Thats the same thing in my opinion, ie trying to figure out which words to learn first etc.

I'm not saying this is what you meant or anything, I too think people coming around asking for con eq when leveling is cheesy, but I was trying to come up with a way so that if you don't continue to wear the cheesy leveling gear you get no benefit. Hell make it a simple thing like, if your not using a con weapon your amount of hitpoints added due to con bonus vanishes.

One thing to remember when skill trees are put in, people will be trying to balance a lot of different stats for whatever skills they are trying to learn. The complexity of this mud is one of its best features. Its very small, if there aren't a lot of little details to learn ie making a good char, it will get old fast. I played for my first 4 to 6 months alone with many different chars and didn't get one past 15 or so, I think most people put in their dues if they are making a good char, if not call them out and ridicule them for not knowing whats up. Just don't remove all the skill so every level 50 thinks they know everything and is indistinguishable from all the others. Duris is like that and every char that is the same race class level is almost identical chant meue drva ex the only variation being if they lost hp due to losing levels. Shrug there has to be a happy medium somewhere.

From: Lethargio Thursday, August 07, 07:52PM

heh, so what if warcry doesn't make any sense, neither does a lot of stuff on this mud too. The only reason i see that people are disagreeing with the spr warcry is that they don't have any :P

as for beam, well thats ok, for reg chars, but i'm pkill, i can't have any fun if I can kill anything (still, the people who have been here longer will still have more fun than the others )

From: Stradivari Thursday, August 07, 09:29PM

Leth, I have much more spr than str, and still think spr-based warcry doesn't make any sense. My disagreement with making this skill spr-based isn't because I have no spr. So, there.


From: Jefahn Friday, August 08, 09:13AM

i think he means con, I assume that you have more con than spr

From: Stradivari Friday, August 08, 12:23PM

Um, Jefahn ... no. I meant spr. I stated that I thought str-based warcry would be a good idea, instead of spr. Leth implied that people like me didn't like the spr idea, because we have no spr. I have much more spr than str, but still would like to see str-based warcry over spr-based warcry. Understand???? Geez. People these days.


From: Zelda Saturday, August 09, 06:08AM

Just to clarify what I said before and to answer Beam's append 17 (because for some reason I'm in an argumentative mood which is quite unusual for me -cackle-).

By defeating a feature I actually meant anything at all which involves somebody wearing equip just to end up with maximum hps and mana even though the equip is wrong for the type of character they are building (such as a dex fighter levelling in con gear) or is not the best outfit to fight in (such as a newbie having as much con as possible instea instead of a weapon and ac gear). I know thats the way the game is made, my point is that it should not be that way and I pointed out all the negative consequences of this. This talk about people going to lots of 'trouble' to build a character and deserving a benefit from it would make sense under a system where 'trouble' involves finding and using the _appropriate_ gear, that is, equip which allows them to fight most effectively at their current level, and boosts the right stats to lea the best words and/or skills for the type of character they are making.

Nobody should be able to get a _permanent_ benefit for their character by getting others to walk them through quests at level 1 and throwing away gear that they need to be able to fight effectively and get their own xp. For example, I am currently building a con fighting mage and getting words first for the spell levels. After 300 hours of play, I still haven't done two of the stat-boosting quests, and to make up for lack of fighting skills I need to use a decent weapon and rent LOTS of spirit gear so I can actually use the combat spells I've learned, and I also stil still wear ac gear in several slots. If I got walked through the stat ques lost my weapon, ac gear and spirit gear, I could boost my current mind and con by something like 40 points, get more hps and mana each level and under the current system end up with more. You really think I should get a better character by going to the trouble of having somebody walk me through quests, and disabling myself so that I can't fight and have to leech xp? Almost everyone who goes to the 'trouble' of making a good character under the current system does it by getting others to level them, and even if you don't its still absurd to reward anyone for trying to maximise one or two stats while reducing their fighting ability.

Anyone visitor looking at the game and seeing one newbie running around in all con gear with no weapon, unable to fight or use spells or do anything for themselves, and another wearing ac because its best at their level, boosting more than one or two stats so that they can use spells and skills, and being able to fight, would conclude that its the first who is the 'loser' who has no idea what they are doing, and be astonished to learn that its the second who actually ends up penalised. As for it being absurd for somebody to get 600 hps in a few minutes by strapping on con gear, I agree its not perfect, but in my opinion its much less absurd than rewarding somebody for doing anything other than wearing whatever gear allowed them to fight most effectively and learn and use words and skills while they were building their character. Also, if the game does get 'fixed', then all characters should be balanced, so why would anyone building a con fighter not want to put on con gear until level 50? If you mean somebody who doesn't get 100 con until level 35 still ends up with the same hps as somebody who gets 100 con and level 20, well that depends, if postponing 100 con was actually the most sensible thing to do in order to be able to fight and learn words, then it was the correct and 'ingenious' thing to do and should certainly not be penalised. Perhaps getting 100 con at level 20 would turn out not to be the most effective strategy, why should it be rewarded?

As for the spell levels, unless I missed something, skills as well as words are going to be level dependent under the new system, so there would actually be MORE skill required and more choices available in deciding what to get and when to get it. I don't see this as analagous to the issue of hps at all, in fact exactly the opposite; to get a good skill or spell level you will have to wear the RIGHT type of equip for the character you are building, and the same gear that allows you to learn them allows you to use them, you don't have to disable yourself or wear gear that is bizarre and innappropriate to get good spell and skill levels they way you do to get good hps and mana.

Bleah, pardon my typos :P


From: Croaker Saturday, August 09, 09:58AM

Nice post, Zelda !

I agree.


From: Beam Saturday, August 09, 11:58AM

Man that dont make much sense. You want to be rewarded as a con fighter for wearing dex while you level up? And um the only thing that should benefit you is stuff that makes it easier on you?

Thats silly, silly, silly.

In the first place wearing stuff that makes it easier to fight has an extreme advantage, it makes it easier to level. It is perfectly natural that someone that goes through certain hardships will not turn out in the end. Talking about cheesy things people do because the system is so and so way is silly, its not the system's fault its the person doing the cheesy stuff, the people helping them do it. You fail to realize or at least take it in consideration in this post that the fight system is broken. If its fixed con fighters should be using con gear, and as for not using a weapon and holding con gear instead. Thats hard to organize, ie fighting something then fleeing and removing weapon holding con and going back etc. As for people being leveled I say why do you help level people like this, you should laugh at them when they ask Only people I would ask or would want to help is someone in my clan. Oh and one other silly thing, it don't take a genuis to use a weapon till they only need 100 to level then wither something to death. Your post is just filled with a lot of 'I don't like it when ppl do this, or this'

Why should a con fighter want to wear con before they are 50? Is this a serious question? They want to wear it because the are con fighters, too bad the mud now penalizes con fighters for wearing their con after they reach 50.

Isn't it simple chars don't take the easy way out and are rewarded for it? Someone that refuses to get con and goes bebopping around learning words, shouldnt be a good fighter, maybe a better mage.

Yah lets reward the people who don't do anything at all to make thier char, the less they do the better, just as long as they can find con at 50.

As for spells and skills, your right there is gonna be more skill in learning them, but you want to take every once of skill out of making a con fighter. From what I can tell in your system the best chars would level up as dex mages then switch over to con thereby having things as easy as possible then having an extremely good char.

Don't it make sense to say that someone that did things that made it harder on them should have more benefit.

One question, since when did people with 100 con 100 mind have trouble learning words, or since when is it counterintuitive to have 100 con mind and learn words, usually they just remove a bit of eq and can learn what they need.

I hope your not talking about 3rd circle mages not having to wear con and mind stuff, thats insanely absurb, a scenario

Fred hey joe what you doing? Joe Im making a whopping 3rd circle mage fred? Fred friend Joe need any help? Joe no fred im not worry about that part now, im maxing out dex and perc for the moment and concentrating on words and skills. This way I have it really easy leveling, when I get 50 I will get the 100 con and mind.
Just where would the difficulty lie in making a good char in this system?

From: Zelda Thursday, August 14, 08:06AM

-ponder Beam's post-

* "You want to be rewarded as a con fighter for wearing dex while you level up?" Who does? Why would a con fighter want to level in dex? Sounds like a silly idea to me, who came up with that one?? Almost as silly as every type of character being rewarded for wearing con while they level up as happens atm

* "its not the system's fault its the person doing the cheesy stuff, the people helping them do it" Well if the system is set up with a choice between being able to fight better now or being a hp/mana monster later, people will get the bonus and avoid the difficulty by transferring the work to others, thats the way people are. Is a good idea to change such a system IMHO.

*"You fail to realize or at least take it in consideration in this post that the fight system is broken" Are you not failing to take into consideration that if the system is fixed, it won't be harder to level in con than in dex?

* "If its fixed con fighters should be using con gear" Yep, they can do that once they know that those with less con have less hps, how are you going to achieve that without getting rid of level gear?

* "not using a weapon and holding con gear instead" I was referring to not RENTING a weapon. A newbie character being advised by those 'in the know' to use all their rent space for mind/con and not 'waste' it on anything else until they reach 100 mind/con, so as to get all the hp/mana they can, and to ask to be leveled until they can 'afford to rent a weapon'

* "Your post is just filled with a lot of 'I don't like it when ppl do this, or this" Whose post? Can't recall that myself. Doesn't bother me what methods people use to build a character, though I don't think there should be a bonus for certain methods. Not too keen on everyone feeling pressured to use certain methods just to keep up.

* "Why should a con fighter want to wear con before they are 50? Is this a serious question?" Well it strikes me as a rather silly question; who asked it? They should want to wear it before 50 for the same reasons they should want to wear it after 50.

* "too bad the mud now penalizes con fighters for wearing their con after they reach 50." Yes, and too bad it now rewards dex fighters for wearing con before they reach 50. Can't wait till it gets fixed.

* "Isn't it simple chars don't take the easy way out and are rewarded for it?" Actually lots of people who DO take the easy way out are rewarded for it atm, ie people who get leveled up by someone don't need to fight and can use all their rent for level gear.

* "Someone that refuses to get con and goes bebopping around learning words, shouldnt be a good fighter," Why would someone 'refuse to get con'? Reactive inhibition caused by too much 'getting con' in the past? 'CONophobia', caused by past associations between 'con level gear' and feelings of helplessness and frustration? Well if somebody does have 'conophobia', they could always be a dex/str fighter, shouldnt turn out too bad then.

* "Yah lets reward the people who don't do anything at all to make thier char., the less they do the better," Actually this is pretty much what happens now as I said, those who coat tail often end up better Don't mind somebody saving time and effort if they want, but they should not be able to end up better as well.

* "just as long as they can find con at 50" So they recover from 'conophobia' at level 50? Why is that? How did they manage to get con skills while they were afflicted with it?

* "you want to take every once of skill out of making a con fighter" Who does? Making a con fighter will require as much skill as any other type, far as I can see.

Don't see why somebody aiming for say 100con/100 dex, should end up better if they get the con first, instead of the dex first, or building both up evenly. And how could you confine the bonus to con fighters? If you could, why should con fighters get a bonus for leveling in con and not dex fighters for leveling in dex etc?

* "the best chars would level up as dex mages then switch over to con thereby having things as easy as possible then having an extremely good char" Why would it be easier to level as dex? Why would switching to con make "an extremely good character"?

* "Don't it make sense to say that someone that did things that made it harder on them should have more benefit." Geez, imagine how hard you could make it on yourself if you removed ALL your equip. Should somebody who deliberately levels up quite nekkid get a big fat whopping permanent bonus for it? Hmmm...nope, doesn't make much sense to me actually.

* "since when is it counterintuitive to have 100 con mind and learn words, usually they just remove a bit of eq and can learn what they need." Why should they need to change equip? Since when is it counterintuitive that a mage who at 50 will use combat spells to fight, can level up using combat spells to fight, without penalty?

* "I hope your not talking about 3rd circle mages not having to wear con and mind stuff," Who? Don't recall anyone saying that mages should not need mind.

* Joe says "Im maxing out dex and perc for the moment and concentrating on words and skills.......". Oops, those are not the right stats to learn and use words, nor to learn and use con skills. Joe could borrow gear just to learn them I suppose. But Joe could not use them in his own gear. Joe sounds a bit confused to me.

* Joe says "This way I have it really easy leveling" Oops, sorry Joe, the system got fixed and dex is no longer easier than con. It'll be rather hard to level up in dex/perc without dex/perc skills, and if you get those you'll be a bit sucky when you switch to con/mind Well it just goes to show, somebody could still end up rather average if they didn't know what they were doing.

* Joe says "when I get 50 I will get the 100 con and mind" Why not get con/mind before 50 and enjoy those benefits immediately? * "Just where would the difficulty lie in making a good char in this system?" Hmmm I think I said that before, more choices to make with skills level dependent, bigger choice of stat combinations if they are balanced, instead of those 'in the know' tending to go for dex/perc or dex/mind for the upteenth time. And of course to fight at lower levels, well a con mage for example wants mind for mana, spell learning and spell power; con for hps, weapon proficiency and con skills; other stats to meet spell requirements,ac for protection and a weapon. Seems like it might be a bit better than when everyone 'in the know' just raced for a set of con level gear???



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