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Whee! my take.

1997 Topic Index

Posted by Ptah on 08/14

Oh boy, lemme see about answering some points.

1) warcry being spirit, I don't like. -shrug-

2) Not playing in Shadowlands because the eq is too hard to get, I have just one comment: THIS MUD IS TOO DEPENDENT ON EQUIPMENT!!! We need to make it dependent on character building instead. Eq is just your CLOTHING fer crissake...

3) That's why I have been saying that current hps need to depend on the character, not what outfit they are wearing at some mystical moment in their lives. :P

4) "This is a combat mud, right?" If it is, let's shut it down and start over. :P No, it is not a combat mud. It is a mud that happens to have a lot of combat in it. It is most definitely not a combat mud, or else we could rip out the ooc, moods, chat, most of the skills, whois strings, titles, Expies, the PR dept, all the quests, and not very coincidentally a huge chunk of our players. Please don't think of it as a combat mud, or you will not be able to judge anything accurately in terms of long-term decisions.

5) changing mobs around... -shrug- Frankly, I think that ALL the mobs and the location of equipment are too darn predictable. A masterful player isn't a masterful player, it's a guy with a lot of lists, speedwalk triggers, and a knack for fleeing at the right time. Beam complained that all the XP runs are being harmed. UGH, why are there XP runs? That implies that play has become mechanical. THIS MUD NEEDS TO BE UNPREDICTABLE or else it will cease to be fun ("No!" cry all the folks who rely on repetitive actions for advancement and what they think is "fun".... my reply is, "you're not having fun, you're just turning off your brain and doing nothing that couldn't better be done by the computer chip embedded in your local microwave." And they will disagree, vehemently even, but I'll stand by the statement. You need to make decisions and face challenges to have fun; repetition is perhaps meditative and relaxing, but I suggest yoga if that is what you are after, not LegendMUD. :P

I could care less if the mobs are too hard or too easy given the above much larger problem. Why do we need to make tougher mobs? Because the previously existing tough ones are too predictable. And no, predictable isn't fixed by special attacks. Special attacks are ONE TOOL among many builders can use. IMHO, one to be used sparingly, but that does have its place.

6) releasing the code: well, I don't want to until we won't be plain old embarrassed by it. It's got big goofs in it. I don't want to release it until it has something useful to offer builders out there who are looking for alternatives to Circle. The main thing that I think needs to be added to it is greater customizability, better building tools, smarter routines that can be altered at runtime via area file defs, etc. I don't personally give a flying flip about releasing it so that people can run "Legend the way it used to be." Legend the way it used to be was hardly as rosy as you seem to recall, and in any case, if we released, it wouldn't be with areas anyway, just code. :P So it's a futile sort of dream. Give it up.

7) I'm not around as much as I was, true. Others have far greater control in terms of setting details, etc. Do I agree with all of it? Hardly. Just ask Croaker how vehemently I objected to even his point tallying scheme for trivia. :P But if we ditched all current imms and replaced 'em with Densiva and Beam and Tyche and whoever else, whatever else, nothing would change, frankly. I mean, lots would change but honestly, players will bitch, imms will be EeeeeEEvil demons from beyond who are out only for themselves, and the Good Old Days would always be the Glory Days. You don't believe me, perhaps, but those who recall when Charity was the Antichrist as far as players were concerned will know what I mean. Whoever has the power always makes the wrong decisions. Just ask anybody. Just check how you tend to feel about your local mayor, president, king, guildmaster, and deity. :P


From: Beam Thursday, August 07, 07:46PM

Well I just want to say that I wasn't really saying xp runs are great or anything, frankly I always looked for other places to get xp that I didn't have to fight over, ie vampire, laibon, said, assayor, thompson etc. I haven't done any xp runs in a long long time until recently because I was down to 1.8 mill xp or so. What I was saying was that I thought these mobs were fair, and there are a lot of unfair mobs that should be fixed first. And yah I agree that we are too dependant upon eq, It would be much better the old way where you could roll 80 or somesuch whatever the numbers were like it used to be a long time ago, if the eq was toned down or rent raised or something, but the fact is going a killing a mob to get the eq and check it out etc is a lot of fun.

I can't think of any replacement for it myself, but hey lets hear the ideas. As for being an immort and running things, no thanks I would rather just be able to log on and give criticism when needed :P

Oh and someone mentioned PCgamer was here looking around or something its too bad muds are non-commercial in a way cuz thats the reason you don't read about them on the cover of PCgamer imho, but then again who wants to pay to play or have so many people on that you can't log in or something.


From: Ptah Thursday, August 07, 08:19PM

IMHO, killing a mob you know exactly how to kill to get an item that you know exactly what it does can't be much fun the tenth time. :)

From: Ulric Friday, August 08, 03:40AM

hmm, I am suprised my sarcastic quote got a whole section in ptahs post here :P, most of what I say is subtile and there is more behind it than my stating that I think its a combat mud, which to clear up I dont. I said that statement because lately, all everyone does is kill mobs for eq, or xp... level friends.. thats really all I see and its incredibly tedious. Rp in my opinion isnt dead, but pretty much in chaos, we have individuals rping with each other, no one has any idea what anyone else is doing, and pkill definetly isnt the same. If you listen closely to chat these days, its a mix of the usual chat, some comments about the mud itself, some asking for tform/heal/eq, etc.. rp is rarely there, not as much random grouping takes place as well (I used to like running hol with complete strangers :P) I do feel that lately the combat side of the mud is about all I see... hence my statement. I honestly feel that some people are afraid to get flamed for being bold in anything rp related, in fear of getting accused of being a senseless spammer (hell, I do that all the time and rarely get flamed, which still suprises me :P) Another reason I feel rp is in chaos is because there is a certian imm participation that is missing (thats another story entirly and I dont wanna get into it) Not to say that the imms dont do anything, because they certianly do, its WHAT they do thats different.

As for the mud being too dependant on Eq, I definetly agree with ptah, I hate the fact that as long as you are mindlessly leveled in con gear, then get other gear later, you can be a good character. I also agree with Beam in a way, who has changed my mind about 'making a char' vs being able to strap on 100 con worth of eq and having 600 hps. The old system isnt exactly right, but I feel the new system isnt either in that aspect. There needs to be some aspect of the mud to where the way you build your char becomes important later, besides the eq they wear. I have some ideas about how to change this, but they dont exactly sound easy to code, so I have no simple solution.

As for mobs and exp and xp loss from death.. I only have one sorta strange suggestion. How about a certian element of luck that determines if the character dies, or if they flee automatically unscathed, or even just knocked out? Again, I have no idea how hard this is to do, but it seems better than such a huge loss from death. Ideal to me would be a mud without death traps :P, to be able to explore without fear of instant death, but I'm not gettin my hopes up :P. Hmm this is long so I'm going to finish, hope this made sense..


From: ParticleMan Friday, August 08, 05:39AM

I'm not gonna comment on any of the stuff about combat mud, ect.. but I will comment on the lack of imm participation in RP.

When I became a PR imm I had a very small idea about how to RP. I thought that RP was just running aroung acting a fool. Have I learned a few things since then. I'm not sure what kind of imm involvment Ulric would like to see in RP. I don't think RP needs imm involvement. I think it does just fine on its own, its the players that need to get involved. Sure, imms can switch into mobs to add a different feel to the RP, and lead tiny plots (of which I've done a few of the past couple of weeks). But the majority of the RP should be done by the players, since we can't stay switched into mobs the whole time we are logged in.

Ulric, I'd be more than happy to hear any suggestions you might have on RP and give my thoughts on it, and what we as a MUD could do to change it.

Probably should be done on another post though. -ponder- I should have put this on another post. -whap self- Blame it on the fever.


From: Asmodean Friday, August 08, 10:25AM

I noticed Ptah said earlier that being a good player on this mud is having lots of lists, notes, triggers, aliases, macros, and speedwalking. Well I may be mistaken, but i'm a fairly good player, i know most areas pretty well, and i even know most of the eq. Now heres the funny part. I have no lists, no aliases, no triggers, no notes, and no speedwalking. I have 10 Macros, 9 of which are for spam eq. One is for stun because I use it so much. I guess what I'm trying to say is that not all of us have all these things and can still be a good player. I've been asked by many different people to make eq lists, and all my lists are in my head. I would guess there are others like me, but i dunno. Just don't figure we all have those things ptah, cause we don't:)

-Asmodean, Follower of Allah

From: Orca Friday, August 08, 11:37AM

In response to append 2, you're right.. It isn't fun, that's why the game Diablo, and the MUD dragon swords has a nifty feature in randomizing items. Just unfortunate it wouldn't really work here as the range of +stat or even damage on weapons isn't large enough.. (You'd need the best items to be like 20-30 in +stat or damage for anything less to be worthwhile using).

Another thing relating to items, as i've said in the past there needs to be a whole lot more items that are useful for 'something', I dunno about others but I find killing just about every mob in a new area and trying everything out just to find 95% of items do nothing but give a bit of AC. -yawn- I'd rather wait and see what others find. So much work put into items descs and so forth and they aren't used by anyone.. What a waste!

From: Chaykin Friday, August 08, 03:51PM


I think part of what makes Legend so unique in my mind is my inability to define it relative to other MUDs. It has never seemed to fall into any distinct category. Ptah says that Legend is not a combat MUD, hence the existence of OOC, roleplaying, and all the like. I think there is some truth in this statement. However, I also believe that so long as the only way to gain experience is to kill things, Legend is, quite inescapably, anchored in combat.

What if there were a way to, for instance, award druids xp not by killing, but by using their druidic skills? Define "experience." If the experience is gained in a fighting (the field of a warrior), what kind of experience is it? Not the kind a druid or surgeon would care about.

I realize that what I am suggesting would be a HUGE change to the very fundamentals of the game. However, if we aren't willing to take such a step, we need to come to terms with the fact that all the specialized skills, fields of study, and RP games in the world can't change the fact that LegendMUD is all about combat.

Chaykin et al.

From: Ptah Friday, August 08, 06:20PM

Re: Asmodean...

What I meant by 'lists' was that everyone has lists of the best eq, everyone has XP runs set up, everyone has a defined list in their head of the ideal skills to get, all the character types are neatly divided up, all the fight strategies are labelled and common... it doesn't have to be an actual list to feel as stale as month-old bread. The only time people break out of their rut is when we change a feature on you. The rest of the time, I think most people play by rote. (Then again, I also think most of you are repeat players).

Re: Orca...

To be blunt, "all the equipment sucks" because this is Monty Haul. Your expectations are too durn high. You OUGHT to be kneeling down and singing hallelujah tp the heavens for getting ahold of a +5 stat item. You OUGHT to cherish every point of AC you get like the valuable possession it is, instead of speaking of it so dismissively. You can only do that because it's in infinite supply, is easy to get, and you're so jaded that a monstrous creature with razor sharp teeth with the power to cloud the world and suck your blood is "a wuss." In other words, you are making my case for me--you're playing by rote, you're caught in an arms race, and you badly need shaken up. Hmm, now, if every +5 item was actually a random +1 to +5, thus dropping the availability of everything by 80%... maybe. Still have the unlimited supply. Hm.

Re: Chaykin...

Give me a good way to do XP for skills and other actions that is not susceptible to macros, and I will have it implemented in a flash. I have wanted to do this for years. Personally, my current idea on the matter revolves around removing XP. :)


From: LadyAce Friday, August 08, 08:04PM

This is in response particularly to the comment about eq that doesn't do anything. Since I'm in the process of creating eq for my area right now, I've thought about this a lot. I'm making a fair number of items, and a fa ir number of them aren't going to 'do' a whole lot. But I'm trying to give them cool names and cool descriptions because I want them to be useful for roleplay, perhaps for people to wear only on certain occasions, or so that they can roleplay using their eq as well as their voice at lower-levels.

I also think it's important to have the mobs wearing some clothing, which requires making them eq -- I'd rather not simply describe all the stuff they're wearing, giving them clothes with descriptions for those who are interested solves this problem. I can totally see that there's a level or approach where the eq without stat or affect bonuses is 'useless' but I would argue it's useless for one set of purposes, and useful for others.

I'm hoping that in my area, and in most areas, that some kind of balance i s struck between eq with stat/affect bonuses and eq without it.

For what it's worth, I think builders are very interested in your comments about equipment or anything else -- I know I'm very interested in any suggestions people have, certainly. So talk to us more, we like you :)

-Lady Ace
Ass't Builder

From: Orca Saturday, August 09, 12:17AM

I didn't mention that i wanted more +5 items (although there sure is need for more), I was talking about even +1-4 that you could at least think 'hey cool, my newbie could use this', (or in a true newbies case, there'd be something they can obtain for themselves other than xp to add a bit of spice to the game, something decent.. not what newbies think is good just by the AC bonus).

Oh and as for hallelujah! a +5 item! well, it sounds ok in theory but you know people just don't accept anything less :) On the other hand, if we were talking +19 vs +20, now that could work! I'd be able to handle +17 or 18 i guess -grin-

From: Chaykin Saturday, August 09, 02:00AM

To redo xp to be skill-specific, I think you'd have to add several aspects to the existing mobs besides current stats...for instance, give the London postal worker a heart problem that a surgeon could cure, or give him some need for a druid's service. Once the action was performed, certain amounts of xp could be awarded, based on how difficult the problem was to solve.

One inherent difficulty with this is figuring in a risk to the player that is equivalent to the risk of death for fighters. Maybe have botched attempts at healing take away HP...I know it sounds lame but it's all I can think of. :)

Another problem is that having these different styles of gaining XP might open social rifts between characters of different types...I don't know how we'd deal with that.

Maybe if we're not willing to change things that much, we could just implement a different way for druids, surgeons et al. to kill besides the "kill" command...maybe surgeons could malpractice. :P


From: Orca Saturday, August 09, 04:06PM

Continuing from my previous append, I'd personally prefer mobs to be naked than be loaded with heaps of useless items that just take forever to check out. I guess if there were identify scrolls and the id object spell gave stats and AC as it should it'd help some but still, if more of these items were of use even to a newbie it'd be a whole lot more interesting plus newbies would no longer need help in obtaining a decent set of eq which seems to be the case now. I also re-equipped myself fully by starting on low level eq, if only these items weren't so scarce you might see more people at least attempt to re-equip themselves rather than the usual "can someone help me?" 2 seconds after they DT.

From: Guilhem Thursday, August 14, 04:12AM

Re: LadyAce

I think it's cool to think about original and fun eq desc, but when 15 people have the same, it's no more original. What would IMPROVE RP A LOT would be to let players get coupons more easily. This would really be an improvement.

Guilhem de le de Lecoque, the one who never had coupons for RP :( .


1997 Topic Index