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Posted by Arsene on 03/09

Bind isnt too bad , with a few modifications, seems to enable too much to happen to you. Once you are bound, you can be blinded, idiocied, rem armored, limned, clumsied, weakened, and still give the mage enough time ot choke/flee/heal warc/flee/heal spell dam/flee/heal or stun/flee/heal. Perhaps if the duration were lowered, a mind blank accompany the spell, or require the spell caster to remain in the room, cause bind ot vanish on a para, or a big dam spell. right now it seems to last two full ticks, waaaayyyy too long.

From: Kaige Wednesday, February 25, 10:02AM

The spell only prevents you from leaving the room. There's plenty of time to take defensive actions like dispel magic if you can cast it, setting up magic sink likewise, taking offensive actions against the caster if they're in the room, which they'd have to be to do most of the things you listed, shoot at them if they're not in the same room with either a gun or a bow.

True it's a definite disadvantage to get caught and bound, however, it's something that can be prepared against if you remember it can happen to you.


From: Arsene Wednesday, February 25, 10:48AM

okay kaige so you are telling us a few things here, one fighters have to sack 30 stat points to mages in fights, and the ability to carry a dam roll horn, and some other items, and carry 4 or 5 dispel magic potions burdening rent and weight. basically to counter bind you have to carry a dispel magic potion in you rhand becau because we cant fumble in our inventory for a potion we know we have(dumb). we already have added 15 useless mind stat points to avoid idiocy once bound, and there is NO chance to kill a mage who has you bound and blind unless you have potion in inventory, even with moderately low dex, a mage can attack flee and heal in oh say 20 seconds while you sit there unable to see move, etc...

and the fail chances dont seem to be chances at all , ive had bind succeed 8 of 8 times. Its enough that you have to rent off a cuase mages spell affects 4 or 5 times a fight, while giving them 30 ac or so plus base(as much as yours) at least two fight skills maybe three as good as yours, and the mind req stat points that pull your abilities down, cause mages ability to str and gain 10, and their ability to take 20 more off you when bound, no to mention move your ac up 60. basically bind allows a cause mage too much once hes established it, at very little mana cost or risk to self. toning it down a little by requiring the caster to stay in the room with you, or not be able to cast it on someone blind, or not be able to cast further spells doesnt seem to ask too much. Its sad enough the stats mages get free now without depriving fighters of two hernes just to be able ot not fear bind

From: Arsene Wednesday, February 25, 10:59AM

make that fear bind because its automatic death.

From: Dudley Wednesday, February 25, 11:10AM

Bind is pretty darn cheap (last i checked, what was it, 10 pts) for the bang you get. If a mage was to be anal, he could easily accomplish what a rsene said, and say even if we had a bubbly in hand, i think once bound, t they have enough time to bind/blind until we run out of potions, since we can only carry so many (i personally can't carry any without relying on prestige.. those things are way too renty). I know the renting out thing is supposed to be reconsidered, but taking out that 'feature' (through bind) is a major disadvantage to fighters, unless they are bound at an inn (happened to me). It also sucks that bind lasts even if the spell caster leaves the room, or (i think) leaves the game. Basically, on ce bound, i not only have to fend off the caster, but also everyone else that will take advantage of the fact that i can't flee.

I think we need to adjust the duration and the effects of bind, much like a wall of wind, where the caster leaving the room breaks the spell, have it become an agg spell (hate being bound inviso), have it last not as long, and have the bind work like a sink when cast on us. (you can ignore the last one :P)


From: Sandra Wednesday, February 25, 11:48AM

I'm sorry, but I can't see why there is even an argument about mage stats vs fighter's stats, especially when there are fighters out there with 3 100's. With that set up, you can scream until you're blue in the face that a mage has better stats, but I'll guarantee they don't have 3 100's. All I've seen in these posts lately is that fighters want to be basically the same as mages AND have those 3 100's. Each char type has a disadvantage, be it their weak because they're a dex or con mage, they can't flee because they have low dex, they're headbutt bait because they're dex/str, and they're idiocy bait because they chose the 3 100's. You can't have it all folks. There is no PERFECT char type anymore, they're all even. They all have their pluses, and their minues, and what I DO suggest is that you work to figure out their weakenesses instead of complaining that their too powerful because of one thing, and work on that weakness, not work backwards.

Now, people may say that I don't know what I'm talking about, and for some things, that may be true. But, I've probably got more chars than Fionn ever thought about, and have fought with many different types of stat setups, and each type I have fights well in their own way. But I also don't expect them to be superchars and immune to everything.

-Sandra, the rambling immortal

From: Arsene Wednesday, February 25, 12:07PM

and you say you take suggestions seriously.

From: Arsene Wednesday, February 25, 12:14PM

When you get upset because people remark imms dont listen, imms treat your suggestions like trash it comes from appends like you just made, everyone has weaknesses, even me, though few people think enough to take a dvantage of them. Im not asking to be made a god, but when you come up ag attack that requires you to seriously hamper yourself, and affects fully h alf of the pk enabled world(if half are non mages) in a serious way. I dont have 1 100, much less 3 100s, and I made an observation about a tac that requires me to give up a hold slot, invest in 2-3k rent of a non boug ht/found potion that I cant make because of origin or be left helpless to every cause mage out there who can blind and bind me. And I still happen think mages, especially causes have too many advantages, and judging by yo ur reaction youd think Id asked to be given some kind of autoslay power.

From: Sandra Wednesday, February 25, 01:57PM

First off, I do take suggestions seriously. My append was in response to the fact that all I've seen is that people want to be able to counter every attack that's delivered to them. What I see is that you'd like a str fighter's damroll, a sniper's hitroll and dodging abilities, a mages spells, and a con fighter's hp/stunning attacks. I don't think I'm being rude in saying that you can't have it all. My post wasn't directed at JUST you, though you seem to think it was. I believe I even made reference to recent posts, not YOUR post. So, who's the one jumping the gun?

From: Arsene Wednesday, February 25, 03:50PM

then make your own post, and this spell wasnt imped before for good reason and it wouldnt hurt to tone it down, or junk it, its way to overpowerful

From: Dudley Wednesday, February 25, 05:00PM

I agree that every char has advantages and disadvantages, but since this a aint a perfect world, some chars tend to have way more disadvantages while not having many skills to exploit others.

Mages and snipers, regardless of the opponent's stat setup, will always have things to rely on, such as blind or snipe, or simple damage spells. For the fighter, that is not always the case, as most fighter chars will have 2 quite high stats and one relatively high stat to make them impervio us to another fighters attacks. So, the chars may have their own set of d disadvantages, but not all have skills that can exploit them, like mages can. And mages have spells that can rip up the strategies most effective against mages--they can counter everything that's thrown to them, other than a snipe, perhaps.

And about having three 100 stats--a LOT was sacrificed to get that setup, and there are HUGE disadvantages that comes with the nifty score screen. It's bascially not much more than having 100str/con and decent dex, and even with that you are not guaranteed a skill against somebody that you can exploit.

From: Dudley Wednesday, February 25, 05:06PM

Well, all i ask is that blind and bind not last that long. No fighter skills (maybe a disorient, if i ever see one in pk) come close to the duration of those spells, and they really should be combat spells, with relatively less a duration and power. Both spells seems ridiculous to last 3-4 ticks, and taking into account ticks right after casting, they should probably last 2 ticks max, and blindness be curable via vials in inventory. And those potions are really renty--maybe 1/10th or 1/2 at least would make them more affordable, since us dumb fightertypes can not even procure them without help.

From: Aeolus Wednesday, February 25, 05:03PM

Personally.. I agree with arsene that this spell, for its man mana cost is waaaay to powerful... but I'll reflect on whats been said so far....

First off.. yeah... we all have weaknessess and just as Sandra said, we should take weaknessess and strength of various characters into account.

Yet.. the thing is... such weaknessess/and strengths of a char should intrinsically add up so that each character is intrinsically the same in quality.

I know that it is harder to maintain a mage than it is a fighter.. but following the previous arguments heard from some imms, I can also argue that the mages chose such a stat "disability" to be able to do things out of the ordinary (cast spells). Likewise, fighters choose to be weaker in mind and other stats to fight better.

Anyways.. getting back to the question of bind. I find that the bind spells basically turns a pkilling character into a mob. Like a HOL mob that just stands there and doesn't hunt you down. Such a disability to move allows a mage character "n times" the amount of setup time... letting them do things which normally wouldn't be seen in pkill since duels usually are short and sweet. I refer here to spells such as clumsy, weaken, weaken armor... the "prep spells." okay.. so what I said previously is obvious, mages can do more now....

Going back to the question of balance however, This ability to "prep" a character highlights mage type qualities and abilities (spells). Thus, intrinsically, a mage, since he/she can now do "Everything" that they are capable of doing, would "excel" and have an advantage in that battle. This offsets the intrinsic balance of fighter types vs mage types. Remember.. its "intrinsic balance"... or the quality of a char type... not relative balance (as in mages have 40 spells... fighters have less skills to do those things that mages can.. etc etc etc).

Now thats at the current state of what bind really does. And YES a non-mage character can counter this effect... but we all forget that the only way to do so is to dispell.. and the only way for a non-mage to dispell is to quaff a dispell spell. and the only way a non-mage can get that is to brew it BUT only a few hometowns allow characters to actually brew this concoction. Thus here we have balanced the quality of chars from the hometowns that can brew with the mages, but not other hometowns.

As this append is getting long.. I shall continue with what I believe could be feasible solutions on another append....

From: Aeolus Wednesday, February 25, 05:20PM

Okay... so let me highlight the main problems of bind... First off.. it binds a character for far longer of a time than should be necessary... (about 2 ticks).

Secondly, the bind spell seems to have a VERY high chance of success. Stuns were like this but now we have almost resolved the problem with stuns...

Anyways.. perhaps a reconsideration of this spell is due....

Of course, what I've said above and on the previous append are my opinions.. but I tried to reach the conclusion that bind is overpowering by trying to follow some logical path. I hope the imms will try to understand why us characters are disgruntled....

Currently, bind is like the stun spell as it was before And that was fixed.. shouldn't this?

-- My couple cents worth


From: Rufus Wednesday, February 25, 06:22PM

next time we update the code bind will be of a shorter and random duration, not a fixed one (it's already short, so don't expect it too much shorter). Also the caster will lose sneaking and invis capabilities after casting the spell (ie they will fade into existence).

And please, Arsene, before you go declaring why or why not a spell was coded or wasn't coded before, find out before you make a complete fool of yourself. No one had ever coded it, it wasn't that it was too powerful. There were design considerations that no one ever bothered with.

I almost didn't change anything because of those remarks.


From: Rufus Wednesday, February 25, 06:27PM

And I think the next time I hear 'immortals never listen' I'm not going to, and you can go on complaining about whatever, just don't bother trying to ask me to fix it.

It gets REAL old after a while.


From: Aeolus Wednesday, February 25, 08:52PM

Thanks rufus:)

-- Aeolus

From: Dudley Wednesday, February 25, 10:22PM

kewl, them fading into existence will help :)

From: Arsene Thursday, February 26, 05:05AM

I didnt say you didnt listen, but its rare to hear that anything is being done, and a certain append to the post here was VERY uncalled for in tone, and thanks for working on it, but I was very unhappy about the tone of that append, totally uncalled for.

From: Mandrake Thursday, February 26, 05:27AM

Cool, well.. Now that's fixed, Arsene killed me the duel before that with blinding arrows, (this was brought up when i used bind the following fight)

I'm just wondering whether blinding arrows may be altered in the future as once again I'm considering perma cos these things are just so damn powerful..

Basically it means fighting blind the whole fight with autorush on, not being able to cast offensive spells as you're likely to just miss and waste all your mana, which is also what happens if you bother to cure blind.

Mmm, anyways.. I gotta have a few more fights with such fighters before I can determine whether it's perma time once again.

From: Primo Thursday, February 26, 07:27AM

Acutally I thought the tone Rufus used was exactly what was needed. You've done everything but accuse him of sitting on his lazy ass and not doing things just to spite you. I'd personally cheer him if next time he did just the opposite of what you wanted.

From: Celia Thursday, February 26, 09:56AM

They do listen, there was a summary here a while ago of what had been discussed and how it was/is being addressed.

It should have been left up.


From: Kinch Thursday, February 26, 10:06AM

Well said, Kaige, Sandra, Rufus, Primo and Celia. I don't buy into these kind of things usually, but in general, all I can add is "get a life".

Oh..and "take a good, long, hard look at yourself."

I feel better now...

Kinch "where's the silent majority when you need them?"

From: Firefly Thursday, February 26, 06:16PM

alas I'm not pkiller, but i can't really see your problem. Sure you can get bound but you can still defend yourself with headbutt/bash/stuff since mages can't cast spells while lying down...and, most mages can't fle flee (even). and again, starting out with saying you guys never listen nev never (even again) got anyone anywhere.


From: Dudley Thursday, February 26, 07:38PM

It was quite hard to defend yourself after being bound and if the mages simply opt to prep/flee. And don't know where you got the idea that mages can't flee. I personally had a 20dex str/con fighter that could flee reliably enough to employ hit/run if necessary.

Regarding the note about mages not being able to cast anything while sitting down: last i checked, fighters can't do anything while lying down either.

From: Rufus Thursday, February 26, 07:55PM

Like tone answered with like tone, Arsene. Generally when someone suggests something you pipe in with such a message within the first three or four posts.

Frankly, I'm sick of it.


From: Arsene Friday, February 27, 10:39AM

maybe if more feedback, or definite answers came, or even toleration of co nversation on chat about certain topics werent so conferenced, or negatively jumped on, Id tone down a bit, but every time we bring up a subject, its pushed to a conference, labeled whining, ignored, or you get yelled at by No one says we are working on it, we have such and such a problem with this, cant code this right yet, or something. The thing lately Ive been most vehement about is the skillwipe, or whatever. SOm epeople have been push and NEEDING one for a lon gtime, and some havent even gotten a reply or consideration, and also th emind req, and several fight system issues that get labeled whining so fast you cant make a case, and if its being worked to be changed, no one says we are working on a solution. And my posts reflect that dislike of ho wsuggestions in ohter forums are taken from, and from others.

From: Bodhi Friday, February 27, 11:23AM

Let me summarize: snipers can shoot blinding arrows every fightround. mages can cure blind every 2 round. Mages can blind snipers. mages can bind snipers, and mages can flee (I personally dont know a good pkill mage with less then 60 dex).

So all in all it mostly comes down to if the mage binds the sniper first or if the sniper blinds the mage first. The mage could also try to blind the sniper first but if the sniper knows whats hes doing that wont be a problem. All kinds of chars who are not cause mages or snipers are easy. Atleast in my experience.

So since snipers suggest that bind be made less 'powerfull' I would sugges that shoot be reduced to every 2. round :)

Then we can talk business -grin-

Bodhi Campeador [Knight of Legend]

-Read the append by Mandrake. (I wont do that, just die a bit more)

-Mayby I should start dueling Arsene :)

From: Eol Tuesday, March 03, 01:26PM

bows lag more than a fight round, and there is lag on reload. yeah, if you dont blind them most can dispel magic if they use thier heads, but bind and blind is auto kill

From: Nomad Monday, March 09, 09:34AM

I thought I'd mention in this particular case, that bind is NOT too powerful.. The major disadvantage to hit/run nowadays, is that usually the first set of attacks after a stun spell do not wake the target up, but they wake up at the end of the round, which gives them more than enough time to use a special. Bash is particularly powerful, it leaves me on the ground for two rounds, and with a lot of hitroll/damroll, you can leave a mage severely hurting.

It has come to my attention that even when idiocied to be at below 25 mind, str fighters can still do insane amounts of damage to bashed targets, even when bound/blind/weakened/clumsied ... And there are plenty of ways around bind, and the penalties of a failed bind hurt :P


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