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mind req

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1998 Topic Index

Posted by Arsene on 03/26

Oh well, once again, this requirement is so hampering. It Halves a fighte r's damage unless you acquire lots of a useless stat, and does not bother mage who for some reason fights as well as you do. Im tired of extolling the reasons it suckls, Im just followiing what seems to get attention arou nd here and has gotten every other advantage yanked, complain, or I forget maybe you have to be an imm for your voice to count.

From: Arsene Thursday, March 19, 05:29PM

maybe you dont see it , maybe no one speaks up, but as for the fighters on the mud I talk to that know the game, and have pk experience are either retiring their fighters for a variety of reasons.

1) You cant kill a mage in agg pkill that doesnt want to be killed. - because you cant para him anymore, two round paras stink, he can halve, or even cut by two thirds your attacks, blind you and run, and go heal. they have parry as dex fighters, or an autoidiocy weapon as con fighters. the dodge tumble, and don thave to worry at all about losing max attacks if they get 101 dex. they dont have ANY worry about losing max proficiencies and they arent even fighters. And as for our advantage, the longer paras of warcry and backstab are gone, you might call them luck, but you sack a lot as a fighter to get backstabs, and to use warcry in pk is DUMB, it still paras rare, and it doesnt last.

You have continually downgraded fighters or their methods to approach bein even to a smart mage in pk, you can say what you want, but the tourney bor that out plain as day, ask Dede. Its simply a downhill battle as a fighter continually looking for something new as anything reliable is yanked while our complaints fall on deaf or stubborn ears.

Also as someone who levels people second and third pkillers, I've only onc out of about 10-15 times seen anyone choose a fighter for a second pkiller, and only 2 create mages. I think that says a lot.

From: Wraith Thursday, March 19, 07:13PM

Arsene, you seem to be missing a character design issue when you say 'fighters' get this and 'mages' get that. Only a handful of character here are not fighters. Most characters are fighter/mages, fighter/herbalists, fighter/sniper, etc. Even your 'fighter' as you call it is not a single-cl -class fighter it the stereotypical D&D game terms. They are fighter/fight That might sound absurd to you, but it is true. Even when you talk about i you have to acknowledge that you say str/con fighter or dex/con fighter which is the same as saying str fighter/con fighter.

Mages have simple exchanged one fighter type for spellcasting ability. Oth characters have done the same thing to gain bardic, surgeon, sniper or herbal skills. Ideally, all possible combinations would be balanced. However, this is not possible in the real world or Legend. You will not see many characters walking around with 100 per and 100 spirit.

Now, you are saying that character's with 100's in all their fight stats are able to resist most fight skills but they are decimated by mages. To me, I do not think it is as simple as you are suggesting. If you have 100's for all your fight stats, you should hit hard, a lot, and should be able to take quite a beating before going down. (Excluding sniper for obvious reasons.) Mages, on the other hand, have sacrificed getting high stats in 2 fight skills ( _real_ mages). In addition they have to keep several other stats reasonably high. High enough so that it is not a trivial matter to maintain them. These two different character types shoul be balanced. The results from the pkill tourney indicates this is the case

You claim that the mind requirement is not achieving its goal. From that I would think new requirements of 35, 25, 15 would seem more reasonable to you. There would be less characters with 3 100's. They would only lose one weapon skill from the idiocy spell. Also, you may find it hard to believe, but 30 is an average stat when skills are considered. Basicly, this means that with the current mind requirements, you can still be a moron and learn how to use weapons at the highest proficiency level.

- Wraith

From: Mondain Thursday, March 19, 10:04PM

Here are a few suggestions I have made in the past that I would just like to restate. I feel they would offer a solution to some of these obvious problems.

-Remove the cause magic spell 'blind'.. as it is.. cause mages are better combat-wise than create.. thats fairly obvious, one of the main reasons for this is the blind spell. I know everyone that has pkilled extensively is used to being blinded constantly. If the blind spell was removed, then create mages would benefit due to the fact that they would be the only spell casters with a blind spell.

-Move the minimum mind for Rudh to 80.. Rudh is supposidely greater magic why can you have such a small mind and yet use rudh? To me it doesnt make any sense and moving the mind req to 80 seems pretty logical.

-Raise the spirit requirement of many words 5 or 10 points higher. As it is most all mages spam up to meditate, and then spam way down to cast spells. As it is now the current spirit level to cast all spells is fairly low.. 5 points higher would seem more logical.

Just some suggestions.. maybe they wouldnt be very good after all but just something I was thinking about..

From: North Friday, March 20, 02:23AM

Gee Arsene, you must level every single pkiller on the mud to personally know what kind of fighter everyone is. I believe there are a few create mages out there, seen a few, maybe even know a few. People are just too set in their tactics to dream up new ones. It's late and I don't know where I'm going with this, but hey, apparently that's okay. And for all you mutant fighter types suggesting such innovative magic requirements like 80 mind for rudh or "let's jack up the spirit requirement for spells by 5-10", well all I can say then is let's jack up the perc requirement for fight skills or rather make perc requirements for kick, bash, headbutt, and elbow. Ya gotta at least be able to see what you're hitting.

North

From: Ishtar Friday, March 20, 06:06AM

I would love to know how as a dex mage I could get 101 dex in order not to worry about losing max attacks as Arsene suggests. I have no 100 stats at all, the highest being 94 dex. If I came down to the absolute min con for spell casting, (meaning very low hps and high vulnerability to lots of stun attacks) AND dropped below the strength needed to keep hold of a weapon if weakened, I could just do it. Personally I prefer to risk losing one or two attacks than to risk dropping my weapon.

Basically straight fighters are unusual in having 3 high stats while other types of character, mages, healers etc have only 2, due to the higher requirements in a range of stats. I cannot see how encumbering these types of character with higher requirements for casting etc would aid balance. It would be better to raise the requirements for fighting skills, so that no type of fighter can easily get 3 high stats, but to ungrade some fighter skills to allow more powerful strategies when these requirements are met (equivalent to the most powerful spells).

These more specialised skills would not then be available to mages if the range of stat requirements for the fight skills and for spell casting differed.

As to people making a mage with their 2nd or 3rd character, that is to be expected as most people start with the easier type of character to build and progress to the harder. This also may mean that those playing mage characters tend ON AVERAGE to be more experienced, which might give the illusion that mages are more powerful when in fact the players have more experience (with many exceptions of course).

I did it the other way around and built 3rd circle mages first, I don't think my next character will be a 3rd circle mage now I have found out how much easier other types are to build :P

Ishtar

From: Mondain Friday, March 20, 05:34PM

Well considering I'm speaking from the experience of having ALL mage characters and only one fighter character -poke self- I think I would have a pretty good idea of what seems realistic. Most people think they have to have spell ability to get by, which shouldnt necessarily be true. This is only because mages have a significant advantage I believe.

From: Arsene Saturday, March 21, 01:14AM

wraith,wraith, what happens with a mage is that mages dont fight as mages , if they are smart in this system. (for those of you without p chars or who do not fight 10-15 times a week, or presume to now because of unclanneds dont mae comments as you are hampered or not, etc, I think in non pk, mages/fighters balanced, and the mind req okay because only two regular xp mobs idicoy, and a certain non rentable, non dispel magic conflicting herb is availible which isnt really feasible in pk)

most mages are dex, or have tumble, and have choke/kick which at 100 dex work nearly as well(perc helpgin dodge and parry which I left out, it helps parry i think) because the onlymage i saw lose to a fighter was and this gives them an attac vs everyone that isnt con/dex/str, but then they can use stun still, which isnt too shabby. or, they can bind or blind, then look to idiocy , (inspire if blind, then weaken or clumsy to further reduce attacs to where you do no damage so , a fighter has attacs from dex, tumble to avoid bash, hbutt, and even choke. so they are as insulated from thise attacs as a fighter without high str/con cause mages have str, so 20s str plus that 10 requires dispel magic to cut a sink, then dispel magic to cut the str spell(takes 2) and then weaken, which, wow , most fighters chant do But a mage cna effectively cut your damage down to zilch, but fighters dont have anything approaching that ability.

and as for your percentages, a lot are purely fighters unless they spam and most by the time they are 50 cant rent spam, so there are alot who have no magic

Ishtar- 101 dex/mind, all spells and 25 str plus 10 for the spell are possible, I have two chars like that, and you dont drop your weapon without three spells cas on you.

then there are 100 dex/con 2nd circles they can bind/idicoy/blind/weaen/clumsy/rem armor/incapacitate as easily as you, tumble str attacks, and resist dex and con attacs as well as a fighter with those stats, and their cripple spells are @Ebs0effect line noise please excuse

m/kick/headbutt as wel as you, an#d still dont have to worry about losing max attacks, and have a good sink if they get it

-and lastly all mages have extreme escapapbility. thkby cna blind] you and runw3 which a f]ighter cant do.

or cast fear

with long paras gone, a mage who doesnt want to die rarely does.

in fact most non duel mages I fight that I managento get ahead Oon escape on the other [email protected] fighter can be inspired( we ont have min/spr to inspi or bound, or blinded away from an inn with no cure and hunted down.

mages have every in game advantage of a fighter except high dam roll and their are even str mages who do well though they can cure sink and blind as aweel as others

o Ill add more to this post tomorrow , line noise is too much

From: Wraith Saturday, March 21, 08:54AM

Elbow, kick, choke, warcry. If you play a 'straight' fighter, you should be able to use at least one of these skills which should be useful against mages. This assumes that they are dex and you find it impossible to land your bashes and headbutts. Perhaps you just need to change your strategy?

- Wraith

From: Asmodean Saturday, March 21, 01:42PM

Wow, did anyone understand Arsene's last append? I tried for about 5 minutes, then i gave up. I agree with whoever said the req. for Rudh should be raised. I'm a mage, and i use Rudh quite often. The problem I see is that people are using 60 mind 3rd circle mages with high con/str /dex, and that way still have the good fight stats AND reap in the good rewards of having all words. I'm sure i'll get slammed for this, but take Nothing for example. Last i checked he's a 3rd circle cause with all fight stats over 60. Yet a 100 mind mage could stun him and never backlas To me this is just wrong. I think quite a few spells need to be jacked up so that these new breeds of half mages aren't so good as they are now. If you made blind require say 80 mind, or even 90, I will guarentee that you will see alot more 80+mages. This would also help these half-mages not to be so good as they are now, and i think it would balance out the 3rd circles a bit too.

Just my opionon...

-Asmodean, the wiry old mage...

From: Somar Saturday, March 21, 03:03PM

You act as if fighters were the only people who have to get a lot of a useless stat... As a mage, I need to get 40 spr, which is pretty useless if you ask me, what does it do besides get me a word? Mages also have to carry around spam gear for meditate or root, which gives fighters a rent advantage..

Mages need to have even more mind than fighters, which is apparantly a 'useless' stat by your definition...

We even -gasp- need some perc to cast our spells, wouldn't it be nice if there was no perc requirement for magic ...

And -shudder- you wouldn't believe it, but we even need to get some str to survive as a mage, yup, even we need to wield weapons.

You like to compare fighters as if getting all 6 stats as a mage to reasonable levels was anything compared to a fighter needing to get 4 or 5.. :P

Somar

From: Dudley Saturday, March 21, 09:47PM

40 spi maybe useless in combat, but you'll need some to meditate anyway. If we somehow get rid of spamming for skills for good, maybe it'll be more balanced with mages not being able to meditate off the bat through spamming.

From: Ishtar Sunday, March 22, 06:09AM

Arsene, I did not say that those stats were impossible, but that they cannot be acheived without a cost, just as the mind requirement for fighters can still be achieved with 3 100 stats, but at a cost.

In my opinion 25 strength is a major weakness (oops pun). I would actually be encumbered at that strength, unless I threw away all my 'RP' items and probably some of my fighting strategy items too.

Having 3 spells cast on you to weaken and drop your weapon or having your strength/spell sink wear off without noticing is far from impossible (assuming that you have a strength spell which all mages don't have).

Wearing sink all the time costs mana. Also the above stats require minimal con (ie very low hps and high vulnerability to choke, warcry headbutt etc. And with that low strength you would be very easily encumbered by a fighter with 100 strength who can hand you soemthing heavy etc etc etc.

The point is it is not cost free.

Ishtar

From: Lethargio Monday, March 23, 03:52AM

hmm, I think more than stat requirements, Arsene's probably saying that the mages have some advantages in pkill that fighters don't have... if you think about it, with all the stuff the mage has, such as blind , heal, weaken, clumsy, stun, idiocy, etc. it probably be hard to kill a mage unless they were willing to fight to the death...

Leth

From: Arsene Wednesday, March 25, 03:37AM

Hmm, why no tmake a new post , too many appends, but oh well.

as for being able to use warcry choke, kick, headbutt, etc vs a mage, its ineffective. choke headbutt have no length to paras at all, and warcry ha been cut in half, and backstab too, you migh tbe able to use those skills vs a mage, but with the pk sanc effect and the short paras, YOU CANT KILLL THEM

all a mage does is get up after your short cruddy para and run heal. then they can come back, and use kick/choke or warcry/headbutt or bash as well as any fighter, in addition to their cripple spells. so yes you can u use a skill vs a mage, but they are so tame, they suck.

you might call it luck to kill someone on a straight para, but it used to be the only way you could kill a mage, now it takes the mage being dumb or deciding to fight to the death, something in agg pk that no one does. while a mage has bind and inspire to keep you there.

-to what ishtar said, all cause mages have str spell, and you can carry a decent amount of gear off 20-25 str pluss a spell, and going around sinked is what pkillers who pkill a lot do. and the difficulty of dispel dispel that it takes two potions thrown, or two dipped arrows and a potion thrown unless you are a create mage sniper.

then it takes three dips.

All Im saying is there is a fundamental imbalance in that cause mages dict ate what happens in a fight, and have extreme advantages by having dex/min cripples spells, they are once again capturing most all of the best facets of the code for pk, and with shortened paras and idiocy, it makes their lives even easier and more insured. the fixes that go in all seem to benefit the cause mages, bind imped, blind taken from snipers, shorter paras, less damage vs sitting, sanc for pk, the mind req.

From: Jamal Wednesday, March 25, 12:25PM

I confess, I am amused...Everyone talks about having to get use wand high number in a useless stat...First of all, if you need to get use wand high number in it, it can hardly be useless. Secondly, how many people with an IQ of 50 have you seen be experts at something? I am not saying people with a low IQ is worthless, but an IQ of 50 is LOW!!!

And if you calculate mind roughly (agreed, very roughly), you can say that a 100 mind could equal 200 IQ (VERY smart). And that makes 25 mind equal a 50 IQ. Which is not very smart. So if it should be changed in any way, I think it should be raised...

Just my thoughts, so flame away :)

Jamal of Agrabah.

From: Arsene Wednesday, March 25, 09:37PM

please, if you dont know anything about pkill, dont append to this, this i isnt an issue in logic(if so headbutt would be dex again) its about balanc in pk, and the benefits cause mages have, and the needless hampering of no non cause mage characters.

Go out, pkill 10-15 times a week with a character from london or Lima vs c cause mages and see how well you do, and how many times you have to rent, and how many times if you manage to come out on top, a cause mage runs and heals, or just runs away while you have to go rent. I have to rent an average of Id say 4 times a fight vs a cause mage, and in group fighting if you dont have a cause mage and the opponent does, 9 of 10 the other sid wins, ceteribus paribus.

From: Ishtar Thursday, March 26, 07:30AM

It seems to me that what you are complaing about has nothing to do with the mind requirement.

Rather it concerns things such as the length of blind, lack of cure blind, redundancy of multiple fighting stats in increasing strategy options etc.

The mind requirement per se makes no difference to these issues.

Ishtar

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