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Posted by Himura on 04/25

Currently, due to reload, bows take 2 rounds to fire per.

Deadeye has almost no chance to snipe, as i found out that my char who used to snipe a lot with the bow was actually sniping using the sniper skill prior to the bug fix.

Even with 100 per, you miss more often than you would miss a kick, and damage dealt also varies even on a successful hit, more so, say than from a kick.

As of now, the only use i found for it was for it to use spell effects that i can't cast, or do so at a cheaper mana (albeit more str) cost. (also for stunning a too alert mob to get a backstab in, but even that's rare)

I was thinking, could the reload lag be reduced, so that bows can go toe to toe with guns in terms of fire rate?

Or transfer the skill lag to dip, instead of reload, to even it out a bit more.

As a non-clanned, I rarely use dip (i might douse every now and then) and would like to have some incentive to actually use the bow in combat, inste ad of using it as a draw-out or hope-like-hell-this-is-my-lucky-day weapon

From: Arsene Sunday, April 12, 02:54AM

bows are ind of useless now, the reload lag does bite, but its going to pr probably be liek the mind req, useless, pointless facet of the system left in the game after its not needed because rufus gets his hackles up.

From: Rufus Monday, April 13, 01:05AM

Okie.. I'll try to keep my cool but...

Y'all complain about guns being useless because bows can have spells on them.

Now bows are useless because they don't reload fast enough.

Anyone see a tradeoff? Guns do a bit more damage, and fire faster, bows are learnable by anyone, can have spell affs, but take longer to reload and fire.

Make sense? As far as sniping with them, that's not my code, nor is the lag associated with shooting or aiming, so arsene, GET THE HELL off my back about it.

If y'all 'd rather, I could just take dipping out entirely and give you something to complain about there, seeing as 6 months ago that wasn't in at all, nor was it planned.

You wonder why I don't do much around here anymore? Case in point.

AND as far as the mind req thing, I'll justify it, but it is by no means ENTIRELY my decision to keep it in. Maybe you'd just be happy if I wasn't so vocal about the code, and my stance on it. Apparenly PLAYERS can be upset, lippy and mouthy, but the second an imm even attempts to justify it, they're being total asses about it.

Have fun, flame away. Just don't bother asking me how anything works, or why it was put in the way it was. Find someone else, because I'm sick and tired of dealing with attutides like Arsene's.


From: Parsley Monday, April 13, 01:09AM

Just out of curiosity, have you ever fired a bow or gun? If you have, you might just have noticed that it takes a wee bit longer to get an arrow out of a quiver, nock it, draw, aim, and fire, then it does to squeeze the trigger on a gun when the next shell is loaded into the chamber for you. In my opinion, bows having a much longer lag on reload than guns makes perfect sense.


From: Mandrake Monday, April 13, 03:39AM

Sure it's more realistic for bows to take longer to reload but is it really worth making bow use practically useless for a bit of realism?

I think you'll find most bow users can cast clumsy, weaken etc anyway.. Those who can't are probably snipers who can make use of dip without it costing them anything then switch to a gun for the extra damage.

I've followed a 100 perc sniper around recently, he sniped so often, he used the gun every round doing a lot more damage than kick with the chance to bash or stun with every shot.. it costs a sniper one extra prac for this but then a bowman also requires 40 strength.

Doesn't seem very balanced to me.. Now you could make flaming arrows do more damage but that would make bows better for shoot/flee than guns so the only real way to fix it would be to lose the reload lag once again.

From: Arsene Monday, April 13, 05:18PM

I have asked, repeatedly, here and in tells, all I've gotten are cryptic respones, posts from YOU like It STAYS END OF DISCUSSION, evasions, no one willing to talk, Ive been to the Q and A's even read all of them in the LT, nothing said there, I have only been to two, and no one there was a coder while I was there.

I asked in nice posts, then I tried ones reflecting what was actually happening, and all that got sent back was its logical, a convenient excuse and if it was viable in all matters why bother to try and balance and a lot isnt logical(headbutt not being dex for one), so dont go blaming me for an attitude when you pulled yours out first, you have no idea how to talk to people, let them know anything when they ask, or realize that Im not trying to say you suck or anything, just that some things are really bad down here in the real world, especially in the pk one, and some justification of why things are are in and not wait till skill trees was all that was asked for.

From: Ad Monday, April 13, 05:29PM

Rufus makes a good point, that bows are indeed learnable by anyone.

That means, of course, snipers from indus can learn bowskills in order to get the effects they usually don't have, and thus makes dip a very powerful skill for them.

However, for those who are not given the option to choose from guns and bows, bows don't offer any significant advantages over existing skills and spells for them, as kicks hit more often than bows do, and also does more damage, while you can get another 5 stat points to use it on your character.

In terms of an indus sniper, bows/guns do have trade offs.

In terms of a deadeye, bows are relatively useless.

What to do?

We could make dip a skill, and give dip the skill lag instead of giving it to reload. This way, those who dip for effects will have trade-offs, whereas those who don't won't.

Also, we can simply opt to give dip some mind/spi req similar to brew, may be just slightly lower, to make the skill less accessible.

Since reload lag isn't your code, Rufus, why not give dip (which, from what i have gathered so far, seems to be your accomplishment) the skill lag and motion to remove the reload skill lag.

From: Nail Monday, April 13, 05:54PM

Moving the skill lag to dip would accomplish very little, as you can dip an entire quiver well before you plan to actually use it. All that would do would be to make bows way overpowered, as you could fire several dipped arrows during a fight without any lag at all from the reload.

From: Vajrapani Monday, April 13, 06:21PM

What you forget is that a quiver full of dipped arrows are not too much a threat anyway you look at it.

Let's assume it was blind, which is now yanked, you cost him a future blinding possibility.

Flaming arrows aren't dip, so that's out of the question.

Anything else he could dip, are one-time spell effects, such as casting weaken twice, clumsy twice, etc.

And even then, it only lasts two ticks.

From: Dune Thursday, April 16, 06:34PM

Ad made a great point... dip should be a skill with a skill lag. And reload should be faster.. It simply isolates the "power" of bows.. which is dip. See what he is saying? Coders are weakening shooting with bows.. when they should be weakening the thing that makes them so strong... dip. This way, bows dont suck in normal combat.

hm.. dont know if that was clear... Do me a favor Rufus, dont yank dip, its one of the coolest things in the game. -cheers- Just think a bit on what makes it too strong or too weak.. and change that.


From: Tad Thursday, April 23, 11:35AM

Seems to me that bows _shouldn't_ be near as powerful as guns...

ANYONE can learn to use a bow, including third circle mages, full druids, etc. etc... I've seen characters that have full 2nd circle magic, deadeye, and 100 spirit poultices... theres something wrong with this if deadeye is just as powerful as sniper.

just my 2c


From: Mandrake Saturday, April 25, 10:29AM

Sure, anyone can use a bow, but it's not as if it works just as well without high perc or without spending 3 pracs on it. Someone using a bow gives up a lot to use it, as much or more than a sniper.

I guess you're saying a sniper should be better so at least london and lima have "something" over other hometowns and I agree but making bow use a waste of time after all the work put into it seems silly to me.


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