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Pkill characters

1998 Topic Index

Posted by Ishtar on 04/27

I do not know what revisions are planned for pkill, but I was thinking there would be an advantage to forcing pkill enabled characters to wait for say 5 mins at the welcome screen before entering the game.

This would prevent people hiding out behind unclanned waiting to multi somebody if a death info comes up, and generally hanging around unclanned waiting for pkill action then switching, taking advantage of knowledge gained through the unclanned character (eg locating targets with an unclanned mage character's spell then switching to go after them) and other related problems.

At least, it would make that kind of thing more difficult.

Just a thought


From: Ad Thursday, April 23, 03:48PM

Other than the obvious problems it might pose in terms of getting to your gear wbefore EVERYONe had a chance to loot it, I think that would do little to stop the fundamental problem, which is willing (knowing) crossplay and carrying of grrudges ooc.

I think if pk is to come back, there should be serious implications to cross-playing, maybe even forcing a player to only play one char a day.

From: Erodic Thursday, April 23, 07:35PM

how about something like an announcement on all clan channels when someone enters the game?

sneak attacks would still be okay (can be faded or sneaking), but this can at least give someone a chance to realize that he's getting jumped by someone who is switching from unclanned.

of course, the drawback... well, who cares.

From: Ishtar Thursday, April 23, 10:23PM

I was not referring to characters who had just died being forced to wait, but those who had just logged in a pkill enabled character. As far as I can see, it will always be very difficult to stop people from cross-playing since it comes down to determining a motive for actions.

Some coding changes may make it more difficult and less tempting to perform certain actions (which are usually associated with cross-play). If personally think coding changes are preferable to anything that requires immortal intervention, especially when that requires subjective judgments about whether somebody is acting ooc etc, which would lead to lots of point scoring accusations.

I do not see how warning people that something is happening would prevent it from causing problems (just as warning people that certain things may happen when they clan does not stop these things from being problems).


From: Vajrapani Thursday, April 23, 11:42PM

Although i see the reasoning behind forcing clanned chars to wait, but sometimes you simply have to switch off-the-bat in order to catch somebody that keeps running away from you.

I for one usually hang out as my unclanned, and while i regen, i type whos to help me pass time, and if i see somebody that ran from me, jumped me, o or whatever, i like the fact that i don't have to wait 5mins or so just trying to get my clanned back on.

Another thing is that if we want to implement such wait times, we might as well have players register all their chars under one giant password, and not allow people to log more than one of their chars a day.

Or simply allow people to only play one char a given week, a given month, whatever, unless the char is permanently dead.

This mud is a very small mud, and most players know each other all too well to stop cross-play unless you can code somehow discouraging it.

I personally witness many groups that are obviously formed from OOC acquaintances; heck, i could probably even go as far as to say that most non-specialized groups are almost always formed ooc.

And what i don't understand is that i thought we had made it policy that multis are harrassment that serves no IC value during the hafler/stella castor fiasco.

I don't understand how after all that good big long talk, -nothing- has be een done to those responsible for the multi, yet place the blame on those that were multi'd and obviously (and reasonably) blew their top.

Of course those of us not involved were penalized too by having pk yanked. Was all that talk about multis being harassment just for show? As much as i want pk back, i don't want it back if there is going to be nothing done to it. It is clear that none of the problems that contributed to its yanking is going to simply vanish, and it'll only be a display of irrational, off-the-wall decision-making on the part of the admins if pk was put back in without anything being done to it.

I have suggested a few ideas regarding discouragement of pk, such as the char/time limit, player/char limit, and will probably suggest more along those lines that are actually enforceable and won't take too much out of legend's atmosphere.

We could also not allow people to clan characters one after the other, and force people to sit out an RL month from pk if they perma/unclan their previous clanned, giving them ample time to cool/chill and gather some sense.

And if there is going to be any drastic change going in, i think it's only fair that people are given a chance to back out of pk, regardless of their xp status.

For those of you wondering if that last statement was of selfish reasons, hell no, i'd probably be at 100mil by the time most of you manage to finis h reading all the spam i put up, or at least pretty close to it :P Anyway, i wait all of your responses.

Vaj (in case you don't know, aka Dudley, Lagmonster)

From: Ishtar Friday, April 24, 12:42AM

Anything suggested to solve problems in pkill has its drawbacks. It seems to me that a 5 minute wait would be a minor inconvenience compared to some of the problems caused by people being able to switch to clanned in an instant in order to multi somebody, or make use of in-character knowledge gained through their unclanned.

I do not see how it follows that a 5 minute waits means you may as well have people playing only one character a day or a month. That would cause far greater annoyance to 'innocent' people than a short wait. A break of a RL month would make the consequences of being permaed worse. I can picture a few people drooling at the thought that they can not only easily and quickly wipe out somebody's character, but can even prevent them playing clanned at all for a month, thus spoiling their fun even more. That suggestion might work if multi was also prevented, since it would then require a good deal of effort and skill to perma somebody.

I do not believe that pkill will ever be workable unless a way is found to make it impossible to inflict massive experience loss with little effort o or risk. Most problems stem directly or indirectly from this, even ooc motivated threats and perma threats would not have such potential to wreck the game, if it actually required lots of effort, skill and reciprocal risk to do any real harm to somebody.


From: Aeolus Friday, April 24, 09:23AM

How about a variant of isht's idea... instead of being a 5 minute wait, (at the main screen that is), how about if a char can only pkill 3 minutes after they log in? (or longer) That way, it doesn't incovenience any other characters, its probably easier to code, and you can really do anything you want to... you just can't pkill until 3 minutes after you log into Mud... oh yeah, chances for a multi goes down too... and "accidental" multis will be impossible since a character that just died would not be pkill enabled right after they relog in.

Just an idea :)

-- Aeolus

From: Vajrapani Friday, April 24, 05:55PM

If you forced a character to wait 5 minutes before logging in as a clanned, what that would mean is that in case of death, there would be 5 minutes worth of time for the others to loot your corpse.

This may seem minor, and it maybe, but there's another catch: For non-mages, everytime they try to rent an effect out, the other chars get 2 or 3 ticks worth of time for them to heal.

Same would be applied towards Aeolus' idea, except that time the rented char will have the opportunity to safely run to an in-game area simply after renting out/in.

I don't think such a solution would be very fair to any char type other than a 3rd create who have the means to get rid of any effects, or cause mages who will at least be able to get rid of most effects. Imagine fighting a mage then having to wait 3-5minutes while a few ticks go by allowing them to heal/prep/meditate. Also, in that case, the one still in-game could call other pkillers who are currently online and have them wait by the inn you last rented.

Other than this in-game type of a problem, that solution won't stop the most important reason why pk was yanked--cross-play and ooc grudges. If you want to stop cross-play, make cross-play impossible by limiting char/player numbers. Or get rid of tell, so any attempt at ooc conversatio can be monitored by players and imms alike, in case of cross-play. And i have to state again, DON'T put pk back without having changed a thing.

The pk-break only gives chars to replenish the xp they need to fuel more perma-ooc-etc wars, not a time to chill. This mud's been up for too long, ppl known each other too long, to expect something like this to simply blow over.


From: Ishtar Friday, April 24, 09:44PM

Well its a while since I last died, but I was under the impression you do not need to log in (ie enter your name and password) to re-enter the game after dying.

You do in order to clear spell effects, but I thought there was a plan to remove the clearance of spell effects by renting anyway.

This suggestion wasn't just about the current problems but some things that have been going on a long time eg a former grendel who hung around unclanned waiting to hear a death info and rent in to multi, unclanned hanging around waiting for a clanmate to be attacked then switching, and a least one character I know who switched between his unclanned mage to do locates on targets and clanned sniper to attack them.

Most of these things may be illegal but it has always been hard to catch t them from what I have seen.

Anyway, its just a thought, might not even be possible. But I have seen at least one mud recently that required a 3 minute wait between ALL character changes in order to make some types of multi-play/crossplay more difficult


From: Vajrapani Friday, April 24, 10:18PM

The plan that had to do with clearing spell effects via renting was shot down as far as i can remember, due to obvious imbalance reasons. The waiting before entering the game would reduce the effectiveness of crossplay, but i guess the question is by how much.

In my opinion, any reasonable wait time between char switching will do little to stop crossplay as most targets will stay in game for a few minutes, or at least long enough for people to switch chars.

For example, say i was in the stag and saw somebody enter the game, if i contact my friends of his entering the game, and without the wait period, it'll still take them upwards to 3 minutes to get to stag from wherever they may have been. In that three minutes, if the target is aware of people going after him/her, it's unlikely that they are simply going to sit around in the stag, but will move to clan hall or ooc, or a safe room as soon as they enter the game.

With the 3 minute delay, the scenario works just the same, except that the 'target' has 3 more minutes to run and hide. Definately not long enough for the 'target' to enjoy gameplay, just buys them time to walk to a safer place even if they are slow at typing.

The point i am trying to get across is that such wait time will do little to discourage crossplay of this order. Moreover, a longer wait period just makes it harder for clanned chars to pop in and check mail, check warboards or whatever they need to check via their clanned, and forces them to play longer or not at all if such were the purpose.

I remember liking this mud so much because of the rent system, the fact that there wasn't a minimum amount of gp i needed to make to make my stay here worthwhile.

So to reduce the effectiveness of crossplay to a degree that is reasonable for the targeted, the wait time needs to be at least a half hour/full hour long, but obviously, it's silly to expect ppl to sit around reading the motd for such an extended period of time.

Therefore, i think it reasonable to umbrella all the chars of a player int o a giant password, and allow only one of those characters to be played per hour/per day/per week/per month, or whatever that is enough to prevent crossplay.


From: Ishtar Saturday, April 25, 12:21AM

Well, not wanting to keep on about it or anything, but......=P

I didn't say anything about people switching when somebody logged in to the game. I was talking about utilization of knowledge that a player just died, a fight had just started (and where these things are happening) and using the skills of one character to aid another.

Five minutes could make quite a difference to being able to get a corpse and retreat to a safe place before somebody switches to multi you. It is enough time for an ongoing fight to either be over, or to have moved to another location, so that somebody switching characters has to use their current character to determine the situation. It would make info gained with hunt or locate useless in most cases since the target would have moved.

If you are only talking about information that character has logged into the game, I do not see that as the major problem. It is natural to want to choose a character to play according to who else is logged on and what is happening. For this reason I do not like the suggestion of only playing on character per hour/day/month at all. I often change character to talk to people because I rarely give away the identity of any of my characters. As far as I can see, I would have to choose between not talking to friends wh don't know the identity of my current character, or else giving this info everybody.

How would each character develop a consistent RP and identity if they could not be played for huge periods of time, and lost touch with in-character friends?

You say a wait period make sit harder for clanned to pop in and check mail etc- surely your suggestion would also prevent this and make it even worse- you would not be able to check the mail, boards etc for a week or a month!

As for removing renting out to clear effects, I thought it had only been postponed until more in-character wasy to remove these effects are available, or their power is reduced.


From: Vajrapani Saturday, April 25, 02:05PM

The premise is that if given a char/time limit, that a person would only have one char to get mail from/to.

And if you want to develop RP and grow a char, do it one at a time. It is basically an idea to virtually restrict players from having only one character per player, and thus prevent crossplay in that making crossplay impossible as IC and OOC would more less coincide with just one char/player.

As far as stopping multis go, we can simply get rid of xploss via pkdeath, make looting impossible (from corpses) unless you are befriended, and even make pk only possible amongst befriended chars.

Or we could assign a cap on the number of deaths a player can receive via pk/day (flag becomes null if the player commits aggression) to make multi's impossible.

Or a flag indicating on the killer, so that the killer can only attack the killed once/day unless attacked by the killed.

Concerning using one char's skills to locate another char, in reality, if you do use locate spell, it's guaranteed to tell you that the chars are either in "A Quiet Garden" "Plane of Balance" or "A Secret Bunker Underground." haha

Anyway, if that's a serious concern (which i doubt cuz most ppl don't tend to stick around long enough in one place unless its one of the said locations) we could simply prevent nonclanned mages from locating clanned chars, or info it everytime one does so. (or secret log, whatever)

From: Lara Monday, April 27, 06:12PM

I happen to like a lot of the ooc interactions...I talk to friends of mine from college and other friends around the country through tells, etc. I wouldn't like to see that aspect of the game lost, because it prevents fun social aspects of the game. While some of us choose only to play the game itself, others find that the social features are equally important.

I know that my phone bill would be a heck of a lot higher if it wasn't for the mud =P



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