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con vs. dex fighters

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Posted by Hotspur on 05/24

I'm not arguing the balance of con vs. dex fighters. Both have strengths and weaknesses. But I do wonder about their respective combat skills.

First of all, let's look at the dex skills backstab and choke. Both of these skills do damage, both of these skills have a chance to stun one's opponent. With choke, there is a chance that your position can be set to sitting, but I've found that to be very rare. Now, let's look at the con skills warcry and headbutt. Neither warcry nor headbutt cause damage, as far as I can tell. My con fighter, who's con (93) is higher than my dex fighter's dex (90), paralyzes less frequently with his warcry than my dex fighter does with his backstab, plus the backstab does damage, whereas the warcry doesn't. True, the warcry can instantly kill mobs or cause them to flee, but the first usually only happens to mobs of a much lower level than the character, and the second is usually a nuisance.

It's also true that backstab can only be used once, and not on everyone. But it still seems to be a more powerful attack than a warcry. Now let's look at headbutt. Again, it doesn't do damage. It has a chance of stunning the mob, but there's also a chance of stunning yourself. Plus, my con fighter falls down more often using headbutt than my dex fighter does using choke. Much more often, actually. I haven't noticed a difference on how often the two stun mobs.

Based on these things, it seems like the skills are unbalanced. I gues con fighters partially make up for it by having massive hp, but again, dex fighters have their advantages, and those xp can disappear awfully fast when you're lying stunned on the ground and a mob or his friends are pounding on you. I'm not calling for a recoding of these skills. I would mostly just like an explanation, if there is one.

Latahs fo' now,


From: Celia Sunday, May 24, 01:58AM

I would have to disagree that con skills are less effective. As a fighter (dex/con/str) I prefer to use con skills and find them to be as powerful as dex skills in most cases.

As I understand it, the chance of a paralyze and the amount of damage done with backstab are based on perc, not dex. If you get more paralyzes with backstab than warcry you are probably a dex/perc fighter (or very lucky). My 100 dex low perc mage characters only get an occasional para.

As for warcry, I believe it does always do damage (which is why a mob will die of fright if you finish it with a warcry). The flee alternative t para is certainly not a nuisance, under certain circumstances it gives a con fighter a better way to kill a mob than the dex fighter's kick/flee.

Although choke is very effective, most level 50 mobs are quite resistant to it, and unlike warcry which always does a little damage, choke does return a 'grip doesn't hold' (ie doing nothing) quite often.

As for headbutt, it can be risky, but it is very powerful when it lands, a I believe it always stuns for one round. With high con, I have never been stunned by a headbutting mob without stunning them as well, so getting stunned is really only a problem when mobs defend. In constrast, I won't try to solo any mob which uses headbutt or choke with my low con dex fighter, because one single headbutt or choke could be fatal.

All in all, I have found them to be very well balanced...

I would say that strength skills still need to be polished up a bit though


From: Lethargio Sunday, May 24, 05:37AM

perhaps your not using your con skills right...headbutts are pretty brutal when you get hit by it...choke does a little damage, and doesn't really stun all that much.

From: Sandra Sunday, May 24, 05:34AM

To correct you on, a few things: headbutt stuns every time it lands, choke doesn't. backstab is more effective if you also have high perc, warcry is a con skill only. Warcry does damage each use, paras, panics, and rages. Warcry's paras last longer than chokes(lots last I'd seen). Causing a mob to flee with a warcry, first time I've heard it called a nuisance really, can be a lifesaver later in levels.

Choke doesn't flip the user often, granted, but it also doesn't stun as long or as often as the other skills mentioned. For the fight stats, it seems to me that these skills are rather balanced, as you'll see as you continue to use them.

From: Rufus Sunday, May 24, 06:27AM

Headbutt actually does a bit of damage, not much, warcry does some if it doesn't have any other affects (even then, it does sometimes), hence you can 'kill' people with warcry.

Backstab can be used 1/tick unless you can stun or sleep the mob or person.

And contrary to what sandra says, chokes that do stun last longer than most headbutts. However, the list for lengths of stuns (vs mobs, players are a whole nother genre) is like this:

Warcry paralyze

Backstab Para

Choke para

Sticking stun/staggering headbutt

Any of these can be increased by having a successfull, non-stunning choke land beforehand.

As far as 'fleeing' being a 'nuisance'... it depends. Against mobs taht you can normally tank and take little damage, it's a nuisance, against Minos or Skatha, it can be a blessing.


From: Hotspur Sunday, May 24, 11:40AM

Actually, I've adjusted my tactics slightly, and now I think headbutt is, if anything, a little overpowered. As in, if I can land two or three headbutts in a row, which isn't too difficult with a high con, I can solo a mob that cons as death and whom judge tells me would last longer, has better armor, yadda yadda, without taking any damage. Not that I'm complaining, mind you...


From: Agni Sunday, May 24, 11:38AM

It's funny to hear that con skills don't do much, as a player who has had a 100 100 100 char, i can definately tell you that con skills are the most powerful skills in the game, especially combined with high str.

Chokes, i found, para almost as often as a warcry would (against mobs) and it does have that icky chance to set-to-sit that warcry doesn't have.

A panicking warcry = nuisance? Think not. I'd usually die to get a panicking warcry, i personally prefer it over paralyzing ones, as panic lasts nearly forever whereas a paralyze doesnt. (Against Puff, it didnt, but doubt there are any other mobs that aren't rooted and resets wimpy like that).

Warcry can do up to roughly 20pts of damage, although i do believe there are times when it does none (i tend to think that if you don't get a "is stunned but will probably recover" when warcrying on a stunned mob it doesn't do any damage), and it's devastating once it does para, which happens too often when fighting mobs that warcry.

Of course there is that little thing with the extra hps that come with the con, which dex doesnt get, and although dex does get acs, it's nothing compared to the amount of hps you get from con.


From: Goliath Sunday, May 24, 01:07PM

Ruf, talking of stun lengths, you said in pks its totally different. I would be interested in how those line up as well...


From: Rufus Sunday, May 24, 11:04PM

Supposedly in the same order, at least that's how they are in the code, though their durations are I believe somewhere between 1/2 and 1/3rd of the normal mob vs player/player vs mob. I know that some formulas are still kinda whacky (sticking stuns in particular) but that problem is being looked into.



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