Discussion Index

fighter v mage

1998 Topic Index

Posted by Crackerjack on 07/05

I have to agree with a lot of what Agni said in the previous post about mages vs straight fighters, and it reminded me of a thought I had a while ago as to how things could be evened up a little.

One of the unbalancing things is that mages basically have access to the same fight skills as pure fighters, and then the added bonus of spells on top of that - anyway, here is my idea ;)

What could be done is create 2 tiers of fight skills - the first tier would be fight skills relying on only 1 stat, and these skills would be reasonable weak (lets say dex has kick, str has bash, con has something else - not the same kick as now though, a weakened version). Then there would be the second tier of skills, that rely order naiad 2 stats (for example there would be skills for str/dex, dex/co con/str and maybe dex/perc as well). Choke for example might be made a dex/str skill, and would need say 60 in both str and dex to get. The second tier skills would of course be more powerful than the others.

The advantage to this of course is that if you had 100 mind dex (or mind/con, mind/str) you would not be able to have the "better" fight skills as well, whereas the pure fighters would.

Anyway its just a thought, feel free to comment/flame ;)

From: Crackerjack Friday, May 29, 03:16PM

oops an alias slipped in there, order naiad should read on ;)

From: Agni Friday, May 29, 08:23PM

I am not quite sure if i mentioned this before, but any two stat combination fighter can be achieved while maintaining all spells, if we are talking about 2nd circle spells.

That is, 100str/dex, 100str/con, 100dex/con, 100dex/perc are combinations that are possible while being able to chant every single 2nd circle spell.

So even such 2nd tiering would not be too much a deterrant to the hybrid mages, who simply need a few spells rather than having to rely on them.

True it is difficult to use a 2nd circle mage who can win fights by relying on the spells available, but it still gives more an option than a non-spellcaster.

I honestly think all non-combat (non dex/str/con) requirements should be dropped from fighting skills, and instead added to fighting stats, either by raising their requirements of one stat, or adding requirements to another stat.

For example, a 40 str req on non-str combat skills will rule out quite a few spellcasters to constant access to these skills, as would a 50+ con/dex req on other skills.

I guess in general players will be downgraded after all this change, but when ppl can reach 100 million in less than 100 hrs after reaching lvl 50, it won't hurt to downgrade players a bit

From: Stradivari Saturday, May 30, 12:14PM

How about making all/some fight skills cost two practices, instead of one? Skill choices would be a bit tougher for 3rd circle mages, since fight skills would be much more costly. I don't have a pure fighter anymore, but some of my fighter- type friends are running around with a dozen free practices. An extra prac for fight skills wouldn't hurt them too much.

My 2 cents ...


From: Stradivari Saturday, May 30, 12:19PM

BTW, by fight skills, I meant basic/advanced/expert "whatever" as well as kick, headbutt, choke, bash, and etc.


From: Diego Saturday, May 30, 04:35PM

Skills costing two practices would do wonders until skills trees(yes I said the dreaded S word), and then people will complain that they don't have enough practices to learn their tree(s).

Get rid of the ability to be able to have 2 100 fight stats and be a mage, instead of making full mages weaker and weaker.

I fail to see how someone, such as myself with 100/90/80 and still 25 perception/mind needs to be more powerful than I am already. The addition of the perception requirement for dodge seems fitting.

While a mage may have spells, they only have so much mana. Fight skills for those of us that can and do use them from all three fight- types cost us nothing. We always will have that advantage over a mage.

Not to mention that we CAN use fight skills from all three fighttypes, and use them well. Whereas a mage can only use one type well, and maybe, -maybe- another almost average.

Me dos pesos,


From: Agni Saturday, May 30, 10:21PM

The question is whether that is an advantage big enough to offset the fact that you can have spells.

In my experience, if you are to make a straight fighter type, you almost invariably end up wielding str, because damroll really doesn't do a whole lot without a big sword, as i've seen from my two 100/100/100 fighters, one with a heavy brahman, and the other with a claw.

But str, inherently, misses a whole lot more even with 43+ hitroll than a dex weapon would with merely 20+ hitroll, and unless the target is bashed/stunned, it doesn't do a whole lot more than dex weapons.

With high con, fighters will have more hps than mages, maybe, but that's only if the mage in question can not heal. Even with the mere addition of cure light, mages will be able to match or surpass any fighter.

And fighters with dex, well, dex is a nice stat to have by itself, but when you are using it in combination, it really becomes moot atm.

Parry is not possible for fighters who wield non-dex, and dex gives no skills that will work better than skills the other stats have to offer against a mage, as bash is far more powerful than kick in terms of damage, and headbutt more reliable than choke in terms of knocking the mage down.

I know all this will depend on individual expertise and taste, but as much as i prefer straight fighters over mages, the argument that "skills don't cost any mana" or "fighters will have all three stat skills" doesn't quite make up for the loss of spells.

Tumble working against the stun spell greatly enhanced the chances of a fighter against a mage, but since it is a skill available to mages, it isn't something solely reserved for fighters.

(well, that came out rather awkward, what i meant to say was that although it helps, it doesnt help enough).

Imagine a str/con 2nd cause against a 100str/dex/con fighter.

Granted the fighter will have 40-60 more dexterity at his disposal, but none of the skills he can use, other than kick, are guranteed to hit.

The 100str/con mage, however, can turn things easily around by simply crashing the fighter, binding the fighter, stunning, clumsying idiocizing, weakening... the list goes on and on. With all the nifty spells in place, and considering that the mage will have somewhat more hps, having 100 100 100 doesnt accomplish a thing.

Chances are, with the changes in perc, you can hit 100 100 80 at max (that's what Dudley gets if he works in huntable perc into his setup) and the stat advantage is cut to 40.. add idiocy and clumsy, that advantage is cut to 22, idiocy in place cuts it down to 20 and at this time the fighter probably lost a few swings per round.

(this is, of course, assuming that the fighter is bound, and the mage managed to re-invis himself or whatever, but that really doesn't matter too much).

Having fight skills (not just weaponskills, but kick/choke/bash whatever) sounds like a great idea, but of course that will mean that we need a skill wipe of some sort, and not sure how feasible that would be. Of course that'll just mean that the mages will now skip words they don't use, and we'll have mages with the minimum amount of words necessary, and against a 2nd circle mage, i don't think the additional prac req will do too much.

From: Flea Sunday, July 05, 11:52AM

One complaint I have about mages being to powerfull, is that mages can get people out of sancutuaries with recall spells. Well the none no-magic ones That is pretty powerful, knowing that they can also stop other mages from doing that to them. My one recommendation, is that they allow snipers to shoot people out of sanctuaries, as long as they aim first. There could even be a percent that they will fail at this, and notify the person in th sanc too. Though those who are not snipers may not like this as much, it will help make mages less powerful.

-Sir Flea


1998 Topic Index