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ID spell and create school

1998 Topic Index

Posted by Feisal on 06/16

Yesterday, I had the missfortune to discuss some changes to create spells and basically the ID vials. In hindsight, I wish I have never done that - see my post on the news board - but done is done. Anyway, I don't think -anyone- can find -anything- in all I said that could be constructed as personal attacks or not focusing on the issue. Basically, what I said was that the ID vials have been rendered practically useless, because of 3 reasons.

1. Practically every mob with somewhat attractive eq is made ID resistant now. There are still exceptions, but -very- few, and it's probably a matter of time only.

2. Even if the mob isn't resistant, now just hitting it isn't enough. You must both hit and the spell as such must succeed. If it doesn't the mob turns on you. Earlier, you could at least rely on that hitting a non-resistant mob will result in it's death. Not so anymore.

3. And finally the worst of it all: The result of the ID spell now is based on the thrower's mind. Meaning you can't ask a dex/perc fighter to throw the vial for you, because they will just die in the process :(

Let me first say that I have no problem with ID resistant mobs. It's okey some are, even the majority. But I resent the fact that -every- new mob with somewhat attractive eq is made ID resistant. I will accept 2 out 3 or even 3 out of 4, but let at least -some- still be susceptible, so the ID vials are not made totally useless.

As it once was, in HoL, you could only vial Ainur and Deathstalker, noone else, but at least the others didn't turn on you and attack you! If I recall correctly, Dew's and Rachael's corpses were disintegrated. So what's so dramatically wrong about letting create mages be able to get at least those 2 mobs' eq on their own? Most of the mobs in HoL would still not be vialable! I am told it is to balance the game, but to me it seems to make it unbalanced, depriving the create school of something that was enjoyable to them, and made no harm whatsoever to whomever else :(

And what kind of reactions do I get? The first is: Junk the ID spell. Oh sure, if there are problems with a spell, just junk it, perfect solution :P. If this is the attitude to be taken, then noone will ever dare to discuss any spell, out of fear that the spell will just be removed.

Another reaction: Remove snipe as well. I am sorry, but what does snipe have to do with this? If there is a problem with snipe, then discuss it separately, what on earth does it have to do with the ID vial issue?

A third reaction: make the cause ID spell aggressive too. I am sorry again, but I am after a solution to the ID vial question, not after making life miserable for cause mages as well..

And as for yanking the ID vials..Fine, yank them, but then replace them with some create spells with mrti that are valueable and useful to create mages! I never had a problem with removing the cure serious spell, since it was replaced with create healing food..in fact I think the latter makes much greater sense for the create school.

Anyway, at that time I was a bit annoyed, so I made a remark like "Isn't the create school welcome here any longer?". I was wrong there, very wrong, I admit it. Spells that have been implemented lately like greater summoning, create object, greater elemental are -extremely- useful!

But still, I get a remark about being absurd because of -one- spell.. Excuse me, but it's not just one spell..ID vials rendered useless, or almost, but also blinding flash with the new blind spell, since now all the mobs you blind -still- can see you and immediately attack, flaming sword weakened because of some mobs given detect illusion - and I don't care if it's one or several, to me that change seems totally pointless and unnecessary -and let me emphasise it's not the flaming sword spell itself I am referring to, I -know- that one hasn't been changed! - but to it's effect on mobs who have detect illusion. So you see, it's not only -one- spell. Btw, giving -every- mob detect invis makes the fade and vanish spells worthless too, but it's a problem for both schools, and here I was -trying- to focus on create..but surely, if you want mobs to see in the darkness, there must be better ways? Give them a light to carry, if nothing else..

Well, it's probably too long as it is..


Feisal, who once enjoyed becoming a str create mage.

From: Rufus Monday, June 15, 01:41AM

Actually, the original intent of the ID spell and the ID vials were 'last resort' butt saving tactics, not eq-gathering ones. Through the various problems with the spell over the ages, it's morphed into something that's different and somewhat useless at times.

I want to assure you, and you can ask any of the imms that I work closely with, the spell system is constantly changing as it is one of my 'pet' parts of code... one that I have strong beliefs in making varied, balanced, well thought out, and unique. I'll take a look at it, but as far as 'no-id' mobs, that's entirely up to the builders, and the best possible course of action would be to, if you find a mob you think should be id'able, approach that imm about it.


From: Skar Monday, June 15, 06:39AM

I was the one that suggested yanking the instant death spells, both cause and create. It was not a knee-jerk reaction, as you seem to imply in your post. I simply feel that if a spell is so unbalancing that builders go out of their way to prevent it's use, then I have to wonder why it remains.

You may be satisfied with 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 4 mobs being impossible to id, but I wouldn't be. To me, it all hinges on an internally consistent game fiction. If I cast a death spell, the thing should die. If it dies, I should get xp. Any exceptions to this, in my opinion, should be rare. If Herne can't be id'd because he's a pagan god, that's a perfect rationalization. If Eva can't be id'd because she's a fantastically skilled sorceress, that's a perfect rationalization. Some of the more powerful, but essentially mundane, mobs have no plausible reason for being id-immune.

I dislike having game balance issues break the fiction of the game. That doesn't mean that the game shouldn't be balanced. That means that I feel that an effort should be made to preserve the fiction where possible. "Eva smirks at you, 'I'm wise to that spell, foolish little mage!" or "Herne roars triumphantly, 'I've walked the earth since the dawn of time, and you won't defeat me so easily!" would give players a plausible reason why their spells don't work, but a king, almost any king, is essentially a normal person with politcal power and physical prowess and has no reason to be resistant to such a powerful spell.

So, rather than have a spell that breaks the rules and unbalances things to the extent that builders opt to have it not apply to their mobs, I humbly suggest removing it.

As for snipe, I'm happy that it at least gives xp for the mobs it kills. And it the builders too the time, it's easier to add a line that indicates that the bullet was deflected somehow in order to preserve the fiction of the game.

Finally, I suggested that if the delivery of the create death vial caused a mob to attack when it failed, then it should be the same for the cause school. Once again summoning the fiction of the game: if someone chanted a death spell at you, wouldn't you feel a bit agressive? Of course, I feel the same way about weaken armor or poison: mobs should react. Agressively. An internally-consistent game fiction isn't reality -- it's a fantasy that behaves as if it is real. All the parts play by the same rules. Legend's fiction hasn't matured to that point yet, but I still hope.

From: Yvonne Monday, June 15, 07:18AM

My biggest problem with ID is game balance. Let's face it-everyone's at least seen newbies running around with -way- high-level eq. I haven't been immune to it myself. When I can buy something at Rhea's for 6K gold 40 levels before I could actually kill the mob myself, then it becomes a pretty attractive option. But I still don't think it's a great situation. High-level stuff should be -HARD- to get. Things like ID vials continue this trend of killing a mob for its salable eq. Let's take Feisal's HoL example. OK, so only two HoL mobs were ID-able. But you know what? That create mage could kill both of them with just a mana loss, where even some level 50 fighters couldn't solo them. I know, I know, mages come into their own at higher levels. But still. There is a problem with this. I don't know what the solution is, but there it is.

Lady Yvonne Alexander

From: Jeannette Monday, June 15, 07:55AM

I'm concerned that you seem to think the conversation on chat yesterday held any weight in any way. As in that you would be afraid to discuss a spell again for fear of it getting pulled... when you brought the subject up on chat, many people told you you really needed to discuss it with the immorts, and a board post was possibly a better option, and mentioned that there weren't any immorts vis to discuss it with. You said you just wanted to talk about our opinions with all of us.

Most people have personal opinions on any number of subjects. A personal opinion does not carry any official weight of any sort. I don't happen to like the instant death spell (for either cause or create). I think it makes it difficult for builders to set an appropriate difficulty level for mobs. And I just don't much like press, point, and poof magic. So I -personally- would be just as happy to see the spell removed from the game (for both schools). This isn't a threat, I haven't the power nor the desire to remove a spell, it's just an opinion. It seems you like the spell and would like to see it made more useful. That's (my reading of your opinion. It doesn't keep me from holding a differing one, doesn't mean that either what I think or what you think will or won't become the way things work or that something else entirely might be put in.

Nor does my dislike for that particular spell mean I dislike create mages I don't. I play one (when I play, which I admit is fairly rare). It doesn't mean that I think they shouldn't be given reasonable numbers of spells and balanced power, and it doesn't mean I think snipe should be likewise removed (even if other people do believe that).

I don't feel your questions or comments were personal attacks, nor particularly off-topic. I do think you asked for opinions, several times, and when they were given didn't much care for them, and took them to be more "official" than I think any of them could have been in such a casual conversation.

In respect of both our rights to hold differing opinions,


From: Feisal Monday, June 15, 08:46AM

A few comments:

Skar, I still don't thinkk removing the spell is a solution, it's just the easiest way out. On the other hand, I find your suggestions of rationalization mobs' ID-resistance great! In addition to your examples, Vlad could say something like "I am the king of the undead, surely you don't think -this- will work on me? Much more funny and much more impressive than the mobs just jumping you.. And I think there is a potential rationalization for many more mob's ID-resistance, and if there isn't, then don't make them so and don't remove the spell either..

As for Yvonne's post: So the mage could ID one or two mobs with "just" a mana loss. Quite apart from the fact that it is a considerable mana loss, and then you'd probably miss 20 times before hitting, what's so dramatically wrong with that? It gave create mages a very -slight- advantage, and it didn't harm -anyone-, least of all the game balance..After all, it's not like what Ainur and Deathstalker have is the -most- attractive eq in the game, but it still gave create mages some satisfaction and -some- use for the spell, without actually harming anyone

As for Jeannette's post, I can't but agree to 100 % that we are all entitled to have our own opinion.

I have also said, that if the ID spell is so impossible to handle in a reasonable way that the only viable option is to junk it - with which, once again I don't agree - then at least replace it with something based on mrti, that is useful and valueable to create mages, so that not a whole word as such becomes useless to one of the schools. However. it seems inconceivable to me that spells based on mrti -death- should not comprise death in any way. Control over death gained by acquiring the word is a great power which should result in powerful spells, yes even instant death included.

And I do -not- think that removing mrti altogether - for any school - is a solution, once again it's just the easy way out.

Finally, I haven't commented on Rufus post, simply because I accept everything he says there :)

I still think though, that builders should -not- make -every- mob with somewhat attractive eq ID resistant, and if they do There should at least be some kind of justification, in the way Skar suggested.



From: Feisal Monday, June 15, 10:27AM

One more thing: Skar, if I poison a mob or weaken armor, it doesn't necessary follow that the mob -knows- who is the cause of what happens. Those could very well be concealed activities, which do -not- have necessarily to be aggressive.


From: Skar Monday, June 15, 10:41AM

Hm. Mage stands in front of me and chants a spell. I wince as the poison hits my bloodstream. Pretty clear cause and effect.

HOWEVER, if mobs truly couldn't see invisible, then yes, that would help the mage retain the initiative. That requires an adjustment in the nature of the mobs here, unfortunately.

From: Skar Monday, June 15, 03:16PM

Say, if you don't remove instant death, and there will continue to be mobs that are immune to it, I don't suppose the coders could supply an aura to that effect, so that a mage wearing an aura sight spell could know the score?

From: Ulric Monday, June 15, 06:43PM

Being a create mage who has had quite a bit of experience with all of these spells I cant help but comment some of my many unpopular but valid comments.

1) create instant death is worthless for create mages, point blank. You can use it in a quest, but thats it... I'd much rather have a damage spell in its place if its been decided by the immorts that getting eq from certian id-able mobs is unbalancing.

2) 2nd circle create spells are for the most part so unbalanced compared to the 2nd circle cause spells. Lets see the Cause mage has strength, weaken, idiocy, wither, cure light, refresh, armor, limn, bless, forage, etc... The create mages have such exciting powerful spells like create root, create orb, create dopple, create armor, etc.. yah right..

3) Create magic has much inferior damage spells to cause magic. Immolate does much more damage on average, and etheric void is somewhat neat, but the mana loss to cast it is insane because as well as hp's, it drains mana if I understand correctly. Why would I want to drain a mobs magic when 99% of the mobs dont use spells but specials.

4) Lets discuss the supposed great 3rd circle create spells... Create object - the mana loss on this spell is still extremly high create greater elemental and summon greater - these spells are great, I admit, however you must remember the mobs you create suck exp, tend to die often, and cost a huge amount of mana to summon.

5) rudh create spells are few and far in between... and except for vanish, a all schools spell, and greater summon arent really worth it.

These have always been my opinions, and I've had many discussions with people, who for the most part all agree with me. There are better rp opportunities as a create mage, but if you plan to mobkill, in my opinion cause is superior. The sacking of the id vials is just all the more proof.

Oh and I have offered suggestions, which have all been ignored, so dont suggest I am just being negative

From: Ulric Monday, June 15, 07:00PM

oh yah and I had a good laugh about the comments about realism. Legend is still a game for the most part, there are going to be unrealistic things no matter how good of a job the imms do. If your just now realizing that you cant strap any realism on to a spell that just instantly kills a monster, but wont affect players then I feel for you. I also dont see any realism with snipers bandaging themselves endlessly, nor do I see realism in taking 500 hps of damage with no permanent loss such as an arm, or every mob in the game seeing invis.... but like I said, its a game. Hell, Magic isnt realistic anyway. So I dont see the point of even discussing 'realism' in this argument.

From: Croaker Monday, June 15, 07:12PM

I say we just have the ID spells char the corpses to dust so there's no corpse. That solves the equip getting problems and allows the other uses of ID. Then make most of the mobs ID'able again.


From: Skar Monday, June 15, 07:10PM

You didn't pay attention, Ulric. I was quite clear about this. An internally consistent fiction isn't the same as reality. An internally consistent fiction is one that is as inviting and believable as possible, one that encourages a suspension of disbelief.

I also did admit that Legend's fiction is not as mature as it could be. There's no argument there. However, there are some things that could be changed to improve it.

You're absolutely right. Magic -- to most people -- isn't real. At least, the kind of magic that Legend offers isn't real. However, if I make a doppelganger and I attack it while I'm wearing a detect illusion spell, but still take damage, that is a breakdown of the fiction of the game, because I'm not supposed to be affected by illusions. None of these constructs are 'real,' but they should behave in a consistent manner to achieve maximum believability and enjoyment.

From: Agni Monday, June 15, 11:29PM

There are many nifty uses of the ID vial, although most are useless outside the dex mage.

As far as using ID vials to get equipment, i am not sure if i actually saw this being practiced too often, as the mana loss is pretty gruesome, and most eq-worthy mobs are pretty good at dodging vials.

To actually hit a vial against those mobs, in my experience they usually had to be slept to ensure a hit. Making some mobs immune to the sleep spell would lessen the chance of its use, and/or giving all mobs the juggle skill (and maybe an act that triggers from the juggle and does damage to the assailant) maybe a neat way to lessen the chances of such.

As of now, most ID-able mobs are also very susceptible to other tactics that only require two ppl to pull it off (which i would assume to be the case with id vials, most of the time) and i don't see too much harm in having mobs with good eq being ID-able. Maybe extra coding so that there is a chance the eq is destroyed when ID'd (somewhat like a souped up version of the flaming code, with no duration til the eq disintegrates) could be enough as well, instead of making mobs id-proof altogether.

From: Whiplash Tuesday, June 16, 01:51AM

As for Feisal's idea of switching ID vials to some new spell, I came up with a pretty interesting idea.

kere dyn mrti. create man's death, aka fake your own death.

The spell would only be casted successfully is the player is at some dying state, say "almost dead". A successful attempt would create a corpse of the person, dead info, and would invis the person (like the imms do), but would also prevent the mage from attack for the duration of the corpse (say 5 ticks).


From: Agni Tuesday, June 16, 11:47PM

makes sense you'd want such a spell, but then why not give it a chance to fail for a real death? :P


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