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cure crit change

1998 Topic Index

Posted by Aginor on 08/16

I have to say that the changes made to cure crit are not really thought through. Where before create had to leave battle, but could heal for a lot less mana, now the healing in both schools requires the user to not be fighting, only the cause version requires more mana and more time for less effect. All I can see this change doing is weakening cause mages even further than before. I don't usually complain much about changes unless they really irritate me, and this one does, because it is aimed directly cause mages. The further the cause school is degenerated, the fewer cause mages there will be, and this change almost makes me want to retire this character. Almost.


From: Ronnie Friday, August 14, 01:10PM

Plus, it mainly affects the concaise mages. Mainly me and Aginor, because I think we are the only two left :-PP. With Con cause, we have to rely on standing toe-to-toe with our hp, curing and doing damage as the battle continues. With the changes, we have to either do a lot of damage with the spells we have, or flee and heal. Both of these are not easy, as our damag comes mainly from stun, headbutt, immolate, and wither. With immolates ski (skill) lag and mana cost, we usually end up dead before the second one. chant guh lak vya ex is so watered down now that even 100 mind vs. a 25 m my worse for wear only lasted 3 rounds. Headbutt is almost totally unrel- iable, as most fighters have good con and snipers/dex mages have tumble. The other Damage spells as I see never do enough damage efficiently to win fights. As for the second option of fleeing/healing, this is nearly impossibly with low dex, and to add to it the 2 round lag which means we can just easily be picked off when we do get a lucky flee.

In conclusion, almost every other mage class can get away wounded with the change, but con cause is more or less killed.

-Ronnie Valthalas

From: Zak Friday, August 14, 02:32PM

I think it was a good alternative to taking healing away from mages all togethr. This way you dont have to sit on your butt all day and regen, but during battles you have to rely on spell and tactics a lot more instead of being able to boost your available hps by 75% with heal, which makes mage-kill for fighters virtually luck-based only. This change gives the fighters a chance without total ripping out something that makes the game more enjoyable to play. I know its going to be a tough adjustment for you :P But just because you can't always win now (or win most of the time) dont start whinning, think of new tactics.

From: Bleeding Friday, August 14, 02:48PM

I'm not a con cause, but i agree, this is icky for them. I don't think yo know what your talking about zak. A con cause -CAN NOT- flee without alot of luck and a few exits on there side. I hope that this is change to bette suitthe mage community. I believe that heal istoo powerful right now, but this is going to make con cause really easy to beat :)


From: Satan Friday, August 14, 07:39PM

the changes are good, you mages relied entirely on that ssspell to win a fight NOW, you can finally resort to something like skill1

From: Zak Friday, August 14, 08:43PM

is it icky for the con mages? they have all those hps to burn. why should they have an easy time fleeing when they are con AND a mage . everyone has it in their mind that mages shoudl be great fighters too. blah. if you're a mage you should have limitations like that and not having high dex if you want allspells and high mind/con is one such consequence. Do they have no other options? no-- they ultimately have more options than any fighter does. like satan said, you can't rely on that spell to last you through the fight now. Use some more strategies

From: Lethargio Friday, August 14, 08:50PM

silly mages...at least they wont be going from almost dead to cuts when I'm almost dead anymore...

From: Ronnie Friday, August 14, 10:23PM

No, con mages have just about NOTHING. Like I stated before, con has shaky (at best) skills to rely on, and hps only last so long when every one of your opponent's attacks hits, due to high ac and no defensive skills like dodge, parry, or tumble. Staffs only do (roughly) the same as most daggers in use, so we cant exactly deal out heavy damage like fighters can. So we have to fight and cure, and immolate or stun when possible. Now with cure crit changed, were left with hoping for a lucky stun.

From: Madison Friday, August 14, 11:36PM

I have very low dex, but manage to have very good AC, matter of fact its -100 with the armor spell, so don't tell me you can't at least take advantage of that.


From: Tiamat Saturday, August 15, 01:29AM

Hmm well Considering I am both pkill and 3rd circle cause I think I'll give the new code change some time before I'll start complaing about it for now, but from what I've read of it it doesn't seem to bad to me, time will tell. Kinda funny the mages complaining about it haven't even fought with it and are allready bitching. Lets see what the real effect is before getting all choked up about it.


From: Ronnie Saturday, August 15, 09:42AM

One: Con cause mages, as I see, have maybe 3 or 4 possible tactics open with the spells and skills we have. If you know any, please inform me. Two: Its not hard to predict that a change from 1 round lag and combat useable to two round lag and non-combat, would really hurt its value in pk for a con cause. Rare as we are, we do count. And Three: Its really starting to worry me how ever major change is added as like it was just an afterthought in the code updates. Unless your doing these things off the top of your heads, a post on public opinion would be nice, listening to the thought out opinions. But I guess listening to whic groups bitch and whine the most is easier.

From: Yvonne Saturday, August 15, 11:26AM

I suppose that's my biggest problem with this change-there was no mention whatsoever that this was a possibility before two days ago. It was my impression that after the change to dodge a couple of months ago, we were going to see some information on in-game changes like this before they actually went in. And I do read the coder board once in a while, to see if anything new is in the works, and I didn't catch a whiff of this. In any case, I really do think it would be wise to give us a little bit of forewarning on things like this.


From: Rictor Saturday, August 15, 02:12PM

I like the change =P but I agree, I dont like the "oh by the way" feel that we got the info

Sir Rictor Belmont

From: Ea! Saturday, August 15, 03:38PM

This change was thought out, and in fact, was in response to many posts by players, and has been suggested by players in the past, both in Q & As and here on the discussion board.

The warning was slightly less than normal (posted Friday morning instead of Thursday evening) as I was busy at the time I normally post the list of changes. I'll try to minimize the occurences of this in the future, and I appoligize for the shorter warning.

We've discussed ways in which we can give longer warnings, but many of them would make code management harder -- we'll continue to discuss them, however, and hopefully come up with something.

As for the "Oh, by the way..." aspect of the post, the reason that part of it was an append rather than part of the original post was that my message got cut off midway through accidentally. The append was made within a few minutes of the original post (as soon as I realized it was missing).

As for the balance issues raised on this board, I'll start by saying the normal thing: give it a little time, try it out, see what it is like. Additionally, realize that mages were never meant to be strong healing characters. When we asked the players what they thought the major imbalances in the current system (particularly pkill), almost all of them said that fighters didn't stand a chance against mages. Furthermore, almost everyone pointed to the ability of mages to heal themselves as the reason.


From: Aeolus Saturday, August 15, 04:52PM

I just have a few little comments that may seem obvious but seems to have been lost throughout all the discussion about balance...

First of all, when a change goes in, we all begin griping when a previously powerful type of character becomes downgraded... and tactics that these characters used to use become ineffective.

I just want to make a note that these downgrades seem to be aimed at BALANCING out all the characters. No one or two types of characters should be able to kill another type of character with ease. Also, in the ideal balance, no one character should have to depend on one skill or one spell in order to win easily in a duel... If they do, that usually means that the one spell or one skill is not "in balance" and needs to be relooked/trimmed.

Given, after we do this, we will all have difficulties killing each other... but then again, what fun is it when somebody can kill one person in 4-5 rounds consistently? If even with the different schools of mages, and the different skillstype/stattypes we had difficulties killing each other really fast, then we'd have to resort to clever uses of skills/terrain/potions/spells. This I think is the apex of character balance. Maybe some of you disagree... but this is what I see as being a balanced world.

Then again, this is easier said than done, and as it is now, Legendmud is a bush thats being trimmed here and there to round it out. On the other hand, before we end up trimming down everything, I would like to see test trials of major changes in spells/skills before they are implemented. Its always a lot different when you talk about something than when you actually do it... so maybe if before implementation, the imms could handpick a dozen or two characters and place them in another port with the updated code... Let them duke it out.. and then tell you if they think its fair/unfair good/notgood.

Anyways.. this is getting long... so I'll just suggest one more thing... Maybe we can reinstate recall in battles, but have it cost twice the mana instead during battle. This would give mages a way to "escape" but then by escaping, they'd also lose 100 mana.. so its a sort of panic button.... Also changing the spell to a general school spell would be better too.

Well.. just my umm.. incesant ramblings.. =P

-- Aeolus

From: Rufus Saturday, August 15, 06:12PM

Okay, just to keep your heads up, and to know that a few things will be changing., all spells should have at least a 2 round if not more wait. All skills have a 2 round wait, all spells should have at least that.

Therefore, all spells which you can cast in 1 round will eventually bechanged as their current state is considered a BUG and will be fixed.


From: Dryden Saturday, August 15, 09:32PM

Actually, not all skills have a 2 round wait. backstab is an example I can think of off the top of my head. I think it's about 50/50 as far as having either a 1 round or 2 round wait.

From: Aginor Saturday, August 15, 09:29PM

The reason I think con cause had to rely on the cure crit spell wasnt so much that the spell itself was greatly imbalanced, but the rest of a con cause's skills/spells are less useful. Anything we have can be easily countered by somebody who knows what they are doing. All we had was HP and cure crit, so essentially we have nothing but HP now, which a good pkiller can easily drain quickly.

Essentially, con cause is pretty much fated to die with this change, unles the rest of their skills and abilities get a good deal better to compensat for it.

Just my opinion, is all

Aginor Chuain Shadowmage

From: Ronnie Sunday, August 16, 05:55AM

Con cause was never powerful before, and being con cause now is almost the same as wearing a large "Kill me for Exp" sign in your desc.

From: Nothing Sunday, August 16, 09:22AM

Do you mean all _combat_ skills and spells Ruf?

From: Rufus Sunday, August 16, 11:03AM

All skills and spells should have a wait associated with them. Not just 'combat' skills/spells.


From: Rictor Sunday, August 16, 06:16PM

Actually at one point Con Cause has been really good, otherwise there wouldnt be any con cause like you Ronnie in the first place, I am of course assuming that no one would play a charecter that was never powerful.

Rictor Belmont


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