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Posted by Eol on 08/18

Amazing how many things that were said when this whole new load of 'stuff' went in are now in effect, with little or no word of thanks to the people that actually suggested and commented on the problems. Also, despite whats said, it appears what has gone in was not thought out, but part of the ongoing attempt by non PLAYING imps and others of changes towards the IDEAL legend, we'd be a lot better off not trying to imp new stuff and waiting on skilltrees, but then we said that too. A summer away has been refreshing, but the same problems still seem to be here, but then I'll have to actually play again to see. We shall see.

Though it seems Legend is totally different now, more bothersome, and still geared to the lower ability player. You are continually taking improvisations of the better pkillers and non pkillers, usually the same players, and taking away what they find through trial and error, gene rally lowering the range of options, and need for experience to be a GOOD You continually avoid class distinctions at all, when a simple designation of fighter or mage would solve a lot of balance problems and allow you to bring in some of the features in the sacrosanct skill trees, if they even exist. Its going to happen in the trees for all practical purposes, go ahead and do it, then you'll get rid of the mutant abilities to heal or otherwise 'imbalance' fights now.

So dont hack to peices what was once good, with your eyes fixed on trees, and dont handcuff everybody. Easier said than done, but its a b bit late once youve taken the plunge.

Not to say you were told so....

From: Rufus Monday, August 17, 10:57AM

You know, I'm wondering just how much anyone knows about the game or who plays it when the poeple who are implementing the changes probably play as much or more than most people who post their responses... (Agni/etc excluded).

I begin to resent the fact that I get included in the 'non playing' umbrella. And I'm sure Sandra and Ea! and much of the rest of the immortal staff does as well. As far as the imps, they provide direction, not detail. We do that, so if you're going to gripe about detail, do that to us, don't mention the imps.

And as far as the whole 'listen to players' the only time we're ever considered to be 'listening' to the players is when a change goes in that favors that TYPE of player. Nearly every change that affects game system, many of the facets of the implementation were drawn from player suggestions. But if player a says 'make this 1' and player b says 'make this 2', if we make it either 1 or 2, we've listened to the players, but player b will say we haven't.

Being an immort is a lose-lose situation. Every game decision we make is not going to be approved by everyone. I don't expect every decision to be met with widespread acceptance. But I also am not in this to be making a game for every individual out there. If I were, I'd be polling your likes and dislikes and creating a separate mud for each one of you.

And as for making it for the players, we have far more to consider than the players we have now. We do value them, we do know they are important, but we must also concern ourselves with the people who no longer play (why they quit 8 months or 3 years ago) and who we are going to have in the future (the players we don't have yet). And in some respects we're aiming for an 'IDEAL' mud because in the end, and 'ideal' mud will be the longest lasting, most fair, and hopes of the most popular mud out there.

And I am severely beginning to resent the statement that we don't think things through. Frankly, I lose sleep over debating game issues, going over consequences of code/building changes, etc. It is a rare day when any decision is made off the cuff, mainly because the bitching can get a lot more severe on the godlists if decisions are made as such (there we aren't exactly restricted by language and whatnot, and we don't always have the opportunity to ignore things which are more flame than substance).

As far as not thinking things through, I was sitting here, two nights ago, on vacation at my sister's going through ALL the old discussion board posts from the last two years, looking at the evolution of the game through the arguments of the players. Don't think I don't spend that kind of time because I don't care about what the players have to think.

And I suppose some will criticise me for 'taking this too personally' and yes, I do take things and this mud personally. It makes me good at what I'm good at. You spend half your days voluntarily building a soup kitchen only for the customers to tell you that the decor leaves a lot to be desired and that your meals totally suck, you'd be a little offended too. Yeah, I take my work personally, but offended or not, I have always and will always listen to players. And I will argue back. The double edged 'if a mort says it it is discussion if an immort says it it's dictatum' has to go.

This mud will never, however, be a democracy of the playerbase. nor will it be run by popular opinion, poll, etc. In the end the immortals who build and who are chosen to construct this world will make it what it is. We will listen on the way, but in the end, yes, we have final decision. I urge everyone to make suggestions, talk with imms, use the discussion board, etc. But if the thought enters your head frequently that every time you object to something, that the immortals ought to jump, if you appeal to popular opinion that may or may not exist as a means of argument to leverege your claim and expect that to immediately change the mud in order to suit you or your characters then perhaps you are in the wrong place. Then again, immorts accept proposals from anyone, and you do have the chance to be on 'the other side of the fence' as it were.

I'll end my rant and let y'all pick at this and flame away.


From: Aginor Monday, August 17, 01:54PM

When I said I thought you didnt think through the change i mentioned on my last post, I was still rather agitated at the change, because I truly was weakened beyond my belief. I respect the effort that the immorts have put into this place, but when a change that seems so drastic catches me off guard like that, I tend to be a little upset. I admit that perhaps I am no so lost as I thought I was, and I intend to give the change a little time.

I am sorry for any insult I may have directed, but changes like that really do irritate me.

Just my 2 cents,


From: Goliath Monday, August 17, 04:22PM

I must admit, Rufus is correct on one point ---- this is not, nor ever will be, a democracy.

Hey, there are lots of MUDs out there, download one and play it by yourself. I imagine all of your chars would rock =P

Well, anyway, I am posting to point out one thing that it seems many of us have overlooked: almost all changes, in one way or another, seem to character abilities.

I mean, hmmf, if mages are quote too powerful, why not increase other chars healing abilities instead of lowering ours?

If stun is too powerful, why not make other skills work better?

Why were "sanc" rings taken out? WTF, who wants 50hp?

Now, I know that this all leads back to char v char balance and char v mob balance. And, the mud is more balanced than it ever has been in my memory, and I've been here over 3 years.

I just wish that char v char (PK) could be balanced without the need to make mob killing mind-bogglingly boring. I feel like a newbie killing mice, rats, what have you EVEN though I am really over lev 45 and killing captains, provisioners and other lame mobs.

Thats my $.02 ...............


From: Charity Monday, August 17, 04:37PM

You already gave your own answer... we generally don't make the weaker stronger, but the stronger weaker, because players have enormous advantages over mobs already. If you're doing big long, boring mobkill runs, then the mobs must not be posing much difficulty. If we gave healing to even MORE characters to balance things, instead of downgrading healing from a source that is not primarily directed at healing (magic), those mobs would be even more boring. Builders couldn't keep up with the constant escalation of player abilities... we aren't even keeping up very well now, when there's more downgrading than upgrading, just because players are smarter than mobs can ever be. =)

Not everything gets harder, however... I think players just don't know how to recognize or appreciate the 'upgrades'. How many of you now have 10 more perception thanks to replacing an old item with a new item from PIsles? How many of you had your dex go up, or your damroll, because of other items there that surpass any existing eq for that stat in that wearslot? Every time a new area goes in, with new stat eq, the game gets easier for you. And we still put the stat eq in, and we don't plan to start telling builders they can't build any (least as far as I know -grin-).

As to mage healing spells, I'd like to relate a historical tidbit for you. When we were first creating the skill set and planning what would be possible in spells, Sadist and Ptah and Kaige said "no cleric spells, cleric are a D&D thing and they don't fit here". Now, even tho the mud's theme was my own idea, I was disappointed cause I liked playing clerics on Diku/Merc muds. The druid skill set was born because I wanted healing 'spells' and the other imps wouldn't allow magical healing. Now, druids have always been sucky fighters, even adding make staff didn't help that much, so I've always felt protective of the 'wimpy' skill set I created. When surgeons were added, druids became less valuable because there was another healing option... but surgery fits Legend's theme and is a neat addition to the mud. Somewhere, cure light and cure serious had been added... by Flagg and possibly Ptah too, in the first version of the magic system. Those weren't too bad though, because the best healing was still reserved for druids and surgeons. I have always disliked cure crit and roots, and I personally feel they should be removed from the game entirely. They devalue druids and surgeons, and give mages more available options in fighting than any other skillset can obtain, which is silly since mages aren't supposed to be toe to toe fighters.

The several of you who have commented that mages need to learn other uses for their spells, not rely on artifically upping their available hps with great healing abilities, and should be glad that the spells weren't removed altogether, have gotten it exactly right IMHO. Like all other 'downgrades' I can understand and expect people to feel cheated and to complain until they get used to it and develop new strategies... but when's the last time you heard a builder complain that their favorite item just got outclassed by an item from a new area? It's a two way street, if you're going to keep getting the upgrades you have to expect the downgrades to happen too.


From: North Monday, August 17, 08:48PM

Not ALL druid suck at fighting, just the non-spam ones. Unfortunately there isn't enough spirit based combat skills (martial arts!!! c'mon!!!) to make it worthwhile to have 100 spirit/100 fighting stat. Now I don't think that mages should find other uses for their spells, most of them are pretty cut-and-dry. Damage spells do damage, transportation spells transport, illusions don't do anything except amuse =P, various prep spells (poison, weaken armor, various wall spells, bless, etc) help some, but they aren't gonna win the fight alone unless you're willing to take a loooooooooong time. I got lots of uses for my spells, but this mud's based on combat, not magic. Otherwise fighter types would be posting their complaints on how my 300 damage fireball spell is too powerful compared to their 3 strike, 20 damage attack and I'd be fat dumb and happy. (and I'm none of these three right now =P)

My point....if I can't fight, at least let me heal. =P


From: Rufus Tuesday, August 18, 11:58PM

Okay, , with all intent and work coming in the near future, it is our desire that mages will be able to use fighting spells and spell strategies without having to rely on the might of the sword (or club or dagger) as much as a pure fighter. However, changes made in that direction before altering the actual fighting abilities of mages will create a situation where the mage is supremely dominant. Look at is as though we are moving to where mages can be 'competative' with minimal fight skills and use of magic, rather than one 'class' dominating over another class. There are various revisions I have planned out for spells (or am planning and thinking about, actually) that with no tampering to the current hand-to-hand combat of the mages would make them so vastly superior to fighters that fighters would stand even less of a chance of ever thinking of winning. I'd rather not jump into those waters without giving a little on the other end of the sword (no pun intended) as well.

Unfortunately, a lot of the problems stem from the root of the game system (and having worked so directly with the game system proper and the fight system in massive detail), which is so deep and complex that simple changes at such a basic level will indeed become severely problematic when the results are had at the game play level.

Just my .02



1998 Topic Index