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New code changes

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Posted by Papercut on 09/21

For my newbies, a lot of the time is spent regenerating mv, and most of such regeneration is usually done while fighting. It is quite detrimental to newbies if they couldn't regen hps and mv during a fight, cuz even that little bit helps out a lot.

If the same applies to mobs, it may look like there's some virtue to this, but most of the time i'll have a poisoned weapon anyway...

But seriously, stopping regen while fighting is a nasty idea, and unreal unless you wish to code that you can't regen UNLESS you are resting as well. I mean, we can regen while we run across the entire mud several times, why not regen while sitting around in one place and fight?

And this change will make it equally more detrimental to non-con, non-flying pkers who need to zoom about more while fighting, and unfortunately might have a tick go by while running. I don't think this new code has any merit, and wish it to be yanked.


From: Yvonne Thursday, September 17, 02:03PM

To be honest, I don't mind the new code changes in and of themselves. However, there are a couple of patterns that I see forming that do worry me, and I'll deal with the most important first.

Let me start by saying that I believe this qualifies as a fairly major code change. Everyone will be affected by the change to regeneration, and many characters will be affected by the change to spamming for skills. As a major change, I think it's not unreasonable to ask for a bit more forewarning than we usually get.

I checked the Coder board, and couldn't find any mention of these changes there. No, I'm not suggesting that the Coders in particular or the Imms in general should have to tell us morts everything.

People have requested that the imm-email-discussion thing (I forget what it's called) be made public. I don't think this is a good idea, for several reasons. But in many ways, the various department boards are a very important link between Imms and morts, and I don't think that they're being used to their fullest extent. This is not the first major code change that didn't appear on the Coder board-I'm also thinking of the change to Cure Crit, and the added perc requirement to dodge which was put in several months ago. I believe that a little more communication between imms and morts would help cut down on the number of frustrated players.

Second-and I'll note that I think this is much less important in the long run than my first topic-it seems like quite a bit of capability has been removed from mages in the past month or two-first the change to cure crit, now the change to spam gear. I don't think these are especially damaging changes, but if enough slightly damaging changes are made to one type of character, it adds up. I'm not saying that these changes should be yanked, but could they be slightly mitigated somehow? I remember Rufus saying at one point that if he imp'ed all of the changes that were being planned for mages without toning down mages' fighting skills, they'd become super-characters. Maybe so. But is it unreasonable to ask to be thrown a bone once in a while? Maybe imp some of the spells that we see in our spellbooks and think, "That might be useful," only to check the helpfile and see that it's not implemented.

Maybe this sounds whiny-and maybe it is-and I know that many people would argue that mages are overpowered-I know I used to-but I don't think it's an accident that snipers are the predominant character type for PK these days. Sorry for bringing PK into it, but I believe there's a reason that the number of snipers is seemingly shooting up, and that reason is that it's becoming harder to be a mage. Please, I'd like to hear feedback on this. Thank you.


From: Geri Thursday, September 17, 03:24PM

I agree with Yvonne, this seems to be a lot of major changes with no warning of them coming. Something needs to be done to let us know what kind of changes are being thought of.

I do think the no regen during fighting hurt newbies severly, as Papercut has mention in the first append. I agree with him and dont want to see code that may hurt newbies.

Enough rambling from this Spice Girl =)


From: Rufus Thursday, September 17, 03:32PM

I'm planning on taking a long look at regen rates in the near future, so that really may be a null issue.

And as far as mages go, I sent a proposal for some things to the coder list that would be quick and dirty to put in.

However, the logic for the latter change was this:

For all other skills, the moment you lose the stat requirements, you lose the benefit of the skills (ride, kick, surgery, etc). The fact that root and meditate are different is not a feature, but a bug. That bug has been fixed.

Anyway, you'll likely see some enhancements to mages in the next week or so, give or take, if I can finish all this housing stuff. As far as regen rates go, you heal -slightly- just walking around the mud, much more so for sleeping or resting, rooting or meditating. The numbers have long been considered too small, especially with the amount of damage many mobs do now. This will be taken heavily into consideration.

And I'll admit to erring on the side of ease, as it was much easier to make this change to regens while fighting (as it actually solves a slew of problems, not just harms newbies) than to correct regen rates, as the formulas for such are far more complex than a simple boolean check. However, compensation will take place in one form or another before too long. Trust me on that.

As far as exhertion goes, the realistic-ness of moving about the mud is skewed in so many ways, that it really must be dropped from the equations. Tracking movement and basing regen entirely on exhertion would mean that people would rarely regenerate (in the course of 1/2 an hour, if you could run from arabia to ireland, you'd probably be so out of breath you really couldn't regen, in fact, you'd likely be damaged!). Anyway, we also have to take into consideration that not everyone has poison. When considering such features, we must always factor to the lowest common denominator. Even if 99% of the people had poisoned weapons, we have to take into account that other 1% who don't.

As for 'major' changes, this is hardly considered 'major'. Probably not in the same category as most usual bug fixes, but it's not altering the combat system, wiping skills to add an entire new skilltrees system or clan changes. Those are major changes.


From: Celia Thursday, September 17, 08:37PM

Regarding the effects of poison - as far as I can see this will greatly reduce the value of having a poisoned weapon (or using the spell), as the damage done by poison is very small, but its main value came from preventing your opponent from healing at the tick during a fight (especially important to newbies). Of course this is assuming that the change applies to mobs and they now aren't going to heal at the tick.

This may or may not matter, but perhaps the power of poison should be looked at as a result of this change.


From: Papercut Thursday, September 17, 08:46PM

That still doesn't answer why changes go in without even a hint of a warning, and i think the regen issue was a fairly big change to merit that. As far as meditate goes, mages can still spam, they just have to stay in spam gear, so it'll only make life slightly difficult for rogue mages, who have to meditate pretty much out in the open.

The regen issue is indeed a major change. Most newbie battles can easil y last over at least one tick, maybe two. Before, the advantage per tick for a newbie with a poisoned weapon (which is always by choice and easily obtained for one persistant enough, not to mention being a player-side feature) gains an advantage of 4 to 8 points per tick. Given that the newbie hps are roughly in the 23-40 range, this is a huge amount.

By removing the regen-per-tick, the scale has been tilted again in the favor of mobs, who only lose a comparative 1-2pts in combat per tick, as opposed to 4-8. For those of us who hit flee at every tick with poison, this change will mean nothing, and in some cases will make them more effective--ONLY when compared to other players, not mobiles.

Kinda deviated from the original topic there, but it is severely annoying that despite all the previous posts regarding a decent warning, or at leas t a feedback, q&a session, that changes go in out of the blue. What are we talking to? Do you guys simply skim the boards and miss why we get so upset? Just because you are players as well (experience suggests that most imms cease to spend significant time as morts anyway, mostly logging only to socialize or whatnot) doesn't mean squat, really. You are imms before you are players, privy to a lot of information that others do not have access to. It does make a huge difference if you know what changes are at least being talked about, and know when some of the things go in. It's quite a different matter when you get slapped with such in your face like this.


From: Rufus Thursday, September 17, 11:49PM

Well, I went to take a look at the formulas for hit/mana/move gain and I found some neat little interesting tidbits... So I'm pulling the 'no regen if fighting code' though regen will be penalized a bit while in combat, but hopefully my corrections and adjustments to the regen rates will more than compensate.


From: Wraith Friday, September 18, 08:37AM

Just a minor note, true newbies do not have poisoned weapons. Only old players with new characters. Even then, not all old players do it either.

- Wraith

From: Papercut Friday, September 18, 01:32PM

The first piece of advice that i got as a newbie was the advice to get my weapon poisoned. True newbies do get weapon poisoned, and are more likely to be inclined to get it, more so than old newbies. I for one haven't bothered to poison my weapon in a long time, as I too often fell victim to the old kill-with-poison-get-no-xp feature.

I think it dangerous for imm's to make any assumptions of this kind, as, unlike us mere mortals, their thoughts have quite an impact on gameplay, and what is perceived as balance. Unless you have factual statistal data regarding the ratio of true newbies vs old newbies with poisoned weapons, i find it quite out of place to state such.

Also, just because it is not a disadvantage only begotten by 'old' newbies, it doesn't mean that it isn't a disadvantage to newbies in general. As unlikely as this may sound, knowledge does diffuse over time, and if you rob something that was even mostly old-newbie feature, you are robbing true newbies of it.


From: LadyAce Sunday, September 20, 09:52PM

I apologize that Q & As have not been happening much as of late, but I hope to get back on track with them very soon.

In terms of prior notification about change, I appreciate the need for players to hear about them, and be heard about them.

Currently, here is how we do things:

Saturday-Wednesday: Coders work on changes.

Wednesday night: Coders report this week's changes to the imm staff.

Thursday: Changes are posted.

Friday: Changes go in.

This is, obviously, not the most efficient system, in view of the timing of the Q & A sessions. Perhaps the thing to do is move the sessions to Thursday, and we can discuss them with you at the time of posting.

As a caveat --

This situation allows you to discuss changes with us before they go in, but it does not promise that we will back out of the changes or even modify them. While we are more than willing to listen, and happy to change course when we're convinced that the current one is catastrophic, it is a given that the imm staff will not always agree with the player base, and when it comes down to it, it is our job to do what we think is best.

The one thing this does not allow for is out-of-US timezone players, but it is the best I can offer at this time. Concerns can also be voiced via email or mudmail or in person at any time.


From: Arsene Monday, September 21, 05:47AM

changes go in too fast.


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