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Posted by Papercut on 11/18

Of all the pkers out there, I dare say that I have been the most prolific in terms of generation/retiring of various chars, and thus have more at stake than my current pker, who happens to be a dex/perc.

I have had 5 pkers this year, all but one of which retired through accumulation of xp, and none of whom were perma'd by whim or simply because the system didn't favor them. On the contrary, I have mostly chosen to stick through with my chars, doing what I can with them.

Of those 5, 3 have been str chars, and the other two had more emphasis on str than the average char of that type. This is primarily due to my personal favor towards str chars, since they have been the weakest of the three char types (con/dex/str) for a long time.

This time, I see str as being overpowered. I make arguments because to me this is undoubtedly so, for reasons pointed out before, and by simply noting the trend in every other player opting to have a str pker of some sort, ESPECIALLY those who have not been successful with other char types. You know who you are.

As I have stated, this char can retire within a week or two if i so desire d, and believe it or not, the next char i have ready to enable IS a str char, all set to take advantage of the current imbalance in the fighty (scratch that y) system. I personally cannot seriously clan that char unless str gets balanced out, since I am reluctant to clan a character that really has nothing to prove. Str was fun to play because it was the perceived underdog, but it seems that the secret is out anyway.

As far as the tourney went, how many times do i have to mention the fact that the tourney represents absolutely NOTHING of pk on this port? Char de signs differ markedly when considering a char for a tourney (where there i s no outside healing, no traps, no ambushes, no concern for packs, etc) than one over here (dynamics of player relations, mobs, outside help, timing, reputation, consequences).


From: Papercut Sunday, November 15, 05:09PM

Let us seriously examine the str advantage.

Imagine two str/con fighters, one using headbutt, and the other using bash when fighting each other. For sake of argument, they will land their skills 100% for this example.

One headbutts, he lands, inflicts, say, 70 pts of damage. The other bashes, inflicts 30 pts of damage from bash, and inflicts 120-130 pts of damage while receiving roughly 40-60 pts of damage (which is reasonable, considering that the target has less hitroll). In this exchange, the str/con that headbutted dealt a total of 110-130 pts, while receiving 150-160 pts, already a 40 pt difference. This difference will accumulate as the fight goes on, and these estimates aren't really that far off the actual damages. And don't be fooled by the 3 round lag on bash, it is essentially a 2 round lag when facing a headbutter, as the headbutter will stand on the 2nd round, headbutt and knock out the target until the 3rd round, the basher standing up immediately and bashing again.

Even if we consider them missing, the result is the same. On a miss, both targets are set to sitting for two rounds, identical consequence. This alone should tell you that bash is overpowered.


From: Papercut Sunday, November 15, 05:29PM

Now let's consider the situation of two str/dex fighting each other, with one kicking every time, the other bashing every time. For simplicity's sake, let's assume that both skills land 100%

First, kick does 46 pts of damage, while inflicting/receiving 40 pts on that round from both sides.

Second, the victim of the kick bashes, inflicts 30 pts upon bashing, then inflicts 120 pts while receiving 80 or so (with the high hitroll even when bashed). In this exchange, the kicker does a total of 166 pts of damage while receiving 190 pts of damage, again, the basher benefitting by more than 20 pts even if the other person goes first. That difference will again accumulate as the fight goes on, making bash the more powerful skill. Consider choke, and even if we neglect the fact that choke can be tumbled and even when it lands, its chance of carotid on a 100str fighter is a tad bit small, it won't do much better than headbutt, since it rarely lasts over 1 round, if that. Warcry? Warcries don't land in any sort of consistency, altho its paras maybe a bit longer. In essence, no fight skill can out perform bash. Consider shoot, and consider it stunning at every shot. That's still no better than headbutt, altho there is a slight chance that you might actually get two shots off before the 2nd bash (but shoot l lag is such that you rarely can). Even if it stuns, its consequence is not too much greater than that of a headbutt, and in pk where most shooters are dex, they won't be doing too much damage on the stunned round anyway.

Bash shouldn't have the mandatory 2 round lag on its victim. It should eit her be reduced to 1, or should be dependant on the victim's dex (consideri ng bash is a detrimental skill against dex-based chars) as to how long the duration will be, ranging from 0 (which won't be 0 in pk, since the target will have skill lag of his own) to 2 (which, at best timing, co uld be as long as 4 rounds of having to tank the str fighter!).

Or it should be left to chance, with 0 round being as frequent as regular headbutts, 1 as frequent as 1 round-dazes, and 2 as frequent as longer than 1 round daze


From: Zak Sunday, November 15, 06:03PM

if bash gets downgraded. disorient should get upgraded. elbow atm isn't that useful. it does a few things, but when you consider most of the effects of disorient... unless you have some way to heal yourself after fleeing from a fight... (as most pure fighters dont) disorient isn't worth trying to get. and something else I have to comment about the things said about bash... str fighters are supposed to do a lot of damage. bash can be tumbled, there is a chance it will 'bash' the basher... it is a very risky thing to do. If you are getting pummeled (as str fighters are supposed to be capable of doing)... then flee and come up with a different way to attack. Str fighters really dont have that many options intrinsically like a mage does. A sniper ... as far as that goes I'm not sure because I haven't played one since the changes to snipers went in... but before they had a lot more tactically that they could do because of shoot/backstab and some of the spell effects their weapons had on them. Snipers by nature should be a bit of a luck based character anyway...


From: Papercut Sunday, November 15, 07:06PM

I agree elbow should be upgraded more, at least in terms of the damage it does alone to make it comparable to kick, in some way. Elbow still doesn't land half as often as kick does, and when it only does half as much damage, with an effect that can easily be rented off and doesnt seem to be hampering (i've had it go off 3 times in pk, none of those times it did me much, if any, good).

As far as the strategy argument goes, well, what strategy is tehre now for a str fighter other than to just bash, anyhow? There's really no strategy in the actual battle, when you boil it down, it always will come down to using the one skill that is most detrimental to your enemy more often than they can use a skill that is most detrimental to you. But as it stands now, bash does a tad bit too much against dex fighters, and that should be fixed.

After all, the advantage of a dex fighter is in taking less damage, but that, obviously, hasn't been working of late.


From: Zeus Sunday, November 15, 09:33PM

Yes, I agree with your math, but....

in your exampe of 100con/str going at it -- the one who uses headbutt comes up short. Well, yeah, hes not using his char to the max. However, what if the bashes back-bash and the headbutt cremes him? You assumed 100% success of skills which never happens (for me).

Without seeing Ea!'s exact formulas (which I havent) we will never know if this is a correct assessment of the way itd turn out. Not to mention weapon choice, luck, armor, tumble, dodge, parry, renting, priority, typing speed, more luck, more luck, and what not.


From: Papercut Sunday, November 15, 11:40PM

Of course there's backbash. But what happens if headbutt fails?

Same consequence.

And in my assumption, both were held at equal, including luck (by guaranteeing 100%), armor, tumble, dodge, parry. Priority i gave to the headbutter (he initiated the fight), renting doesn't mean squat, and typing speed doesnt play a role, since i've clearly stated that the headbutter goes first.

Luck? There's a difference between luck playing a role, and luck being the only means to defeat an opponent. Try not to confuse the two.


From: T-Bone Monday, November 16, 08:08AM

Since there was mention of warcry in there somewhere :) It stuns for a max of 3 rounds now and it doesn't paralyze anymore than it used to.. I've gone 15-20 rounds for a single 3 round stun. It also needs looking into.

From: Danar Tuesday, November 17, 11:41PM

Submitted for your approval :P Given: A successful kick does 46 points of damage. A successful bash does 30 points of damage. A fighter does 40 points damage per round against a standing opponent and 60 per against a resting one.

Assume the kicker kicks once, then the basher bashes next round. When they both succeed, the kicker will do 46 damage and both fighters will do 40 to each other. The basher will then do 30 damage and 120 during the two round sit, while his opponent will do 80 during those two rounds. The basher thus does 24 points extra.

When the kicker fails and the basher succeeds, it is the same situation with 46 points of damage less, so the basher does 70 points extra.

When the kicker succeeds and the basher fails, the kicker does 46 damage, both fighters do 40 to each other, and then the basher falls down and takes 120, while the kicker takes 80. This is 86 points less.

When they both fail, first they do 40 to each other, then the kicker does 120 and the basher does 80. This is 40 points less.

Thus, the expected payoff in terms of extra damage for the basher is:
((chance of kick) times (chance of bash) times 24) plus
((1 - (chance of kick)) times (chance of bash) times 70) plus
((chance of kick) times (1 - (chance of bash)) times -86) plus
((1 - (chance of kick)) times (1 - (chance of bash)) times -40)

Letting k be the chance of a kick, and b the chance of a bash, for the basher to have an advantage requires that:
24kb + 70(1-k)b - 86k(1-b) - 40(1-k)(1-b) > 0

This multiplies out to
24kb + 70b - 70kb - 86k + 86kb - 40 +40k +40b - 40kb > 0

The 'kb's sum to 0, so you can simplify to
70b - 86k - 40 + 40k + 40b > 0

Collecting like terms gives us
110b - 46k - 40 > 0

And thus
110b > 46k + 40, or b > (23/55)k + 4/11

This simply shows that, with the damage numbers Papercut gave us, the bash will have an advantage over the kicker as long as the percentage chance of a bash is at least 36% more than about 41% of the percentage chance of a kick. This means that, even if the kicker always succeeds, the basher will have the advantage as long as he has at least a 77% chance of success (high C, low C-minus).

Just a little something to look at. Remember, I'm a str fighter, so I'm not acting out of self-interest.

Danar Sigrittiano

...once created payoff matrices for a whole hour!

From: Rufus Wednesday, November 18, 01:29PM

Bash has been changed, the maximum damage it can do is 14 pts.



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