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Posted by Mandarb on 12/07

Yea. Hot subject these days. Just have a few ideas, and if your going to append "were working on it," please don't append.

I've noticed their seem to be ALOT of half mages, or 3rd circles with less then high mind these days. Why you ask? Well, alot of things f factor into it, but one of the most prominent is incentive. What incentive do you have to get 100 mind? Sure, you get a little more mana, and you -MIGHT- get through one or 2 sinks you might have failed before, but is that really worth it, when instead of all those points going to mind, you could go say 70 mind, cast everything you could before with only minor penalties, while gaining those 30 points to add elsewhere, such as con in dex case, dex in con case ect. forth. Now, I'm told that these things will be fixed with trees and thats all well and good, but just when ARE trees going in? And until that time, is it fine for this to be such an unbalancing issue? In all honesty, I don't know, thats why I'm asking. Anyway, here's a few ideas.

This one alot of people aren't going to agree with. I think roots need to be toned down BIG time. Cause 2nd circle heal is bull compared to this thing, and i think create needs to be compareable. HOWEVER, I also feel a rudh based create heal spell should also be implemented, much like the cause. Roots are a major factor of all these half creates, and it would be nice, and this WOULD be an incentive to go 3rd circle.

Number 2: I've heard this has been said, but how about a % of mana on damage spells instead of damage. This is purely non-pk suggestion, for it would help the leveling ect. of mages immenesly. Instead of immola ALWAYS costing say 40 mana, at level 35 it might cost 20, and then at 50 cost 40. Well, you get the idea.

Stun. Can't say much about this, its kinda sucky right now. How about it costs more if your only 2nd circle, like 35, and maybe 25 for 3rd circle? Would kinda make sense since as a 3rd circle your more familiar with the weaves of spells ect. and might just pull this off a bit better.

And lastely, and certainly the most controversial, sink. From my own expierence, a 50 mind sink will stop almost everything a 100 mind sink will stop. This is retarded. i understand that spell levels work into this, but I don't think they should have SUCH a strong affect. If you have 100 mind and someone casts at you with 50, you should sink at least 50% of the time, maybe more. And vise versa for 100 mind, they should get through the majority of the time, and rarely be sunk by a 50 mind sink. Spellcast level should only really be important when comparing identical or close mind values. This would make 100 mind all that much better to have. Just a few ideas. Flame away, I'm sure you will. No biggie, won't be the first time I'm told i'm psycho. -lick-


From: Mo Friday, December 04, 11:30PM

a few things

1. on half mages

in pk, regardless of anything, half-whatever has always been, and will be dominant if there are more halves around. The point in those is that you maximize your chance of having a stat to use against your opponent, so that it doesn't degenerate into a luck match. To increase the chance of having a stat over the opponent, one forgoes having 'exceptional' prowess in his or her 2nd stat. In mobkill, half-mages aren't nearly as good as full mages mostly because there is bound to be a char that can do better what a half mage can do, and most mobs have super high stats making a half mage no better than a single-stat char.

it is a player's decision, imho, to make a high mind mage as opposed to investing those points elsewhere, and this is more the trend now since the reduction in damage in pk drains the mages' mana as there isn't a man a cost reduction in pk. granted, there isn't really pk-adjusted spell damage, but for stun, it's cost is increased since there's 30% less damage being done.

2. on create healing

it is a tad bit insane in pk, as a create mage need only be starving (mini mal effect on mana regen, i think) to heal roughly 400 pts. This healing is independent from the caster's mind, which makes it even worse.

more the appealing, it can be prepped, so it's lag-free healing compared to cure crit, which lags and gobbles mana. cure crit is fairly useless compared to spamming cure light other than its speed (on high-mind) as its mana benefits aren't too great. create rudh healing should probably make the current roots we have now, whereas regular 2nd circle roots shoul be either more filling, don't do as much as 40 per, and in general bind it more closely to mind. atm, roots can do, at the same mana cost, the equivalent of augment (50 min 35 spi = 85pts vs. augment 40min 60spi = 100 pts, disregarding pracs spent to learn it--not too diff considering pre-reqs on augment--and having to have herb, bandage, etc) when compared to mana-hp rate. this is silly imho.

3. on % mana thingie

i think it should be based on damage, but have cost reduced at lower cast lvls. higher cast lvl, with its benefits being less likelihood of failing, should also have higher cost--such that at low lvls, newbie mages can actually try to use spells to get ahead. atm, they have to interrupt their training by getting a fightskill or two, and for 3rd circles with all words, that means there'll be 2-4 words that won't be learned til after 25 (a point i consider to be the latest point for a spell to never really fail at lvl 50)

4. on sink

i think the purpose of sink is to negate magic from one mage to another, to such a degree that it is worth casting even if you have the lowest of possible mind. i don't think sinks should be more penetratable, just the opposite--the chance of penetrating a mage's sink should be the equivalent of the chance of stunning them, compared with mind. and when the difference is huge (30+) i think the caster should have a chance of backlashing--having the spell thrown back at them.


From: Davien Friday, December 04, 11:45PM

Being 'starving' doesn't affect mana regen? Ahhhh you might want to rethink that. I have 100 mind, which I am told speeds up regen, and its still only about 20% as fast as when I am full. I do have a 50 mind half mage, and I can tell you its worse for him. Added to that there are the decresed regen rates for HP and MV, just because you need to be hungry to heal yourself.

Personally the only thing that keeps me at 100 mind, as opposed to gaining lots more HP, is the effect that would have on my summoned creatures. Even then, seeing it is HP based for some and mind for others, I think I would make it back. Maybe its a point of pride being smarter than almost everyone else. -shrug-

In terms of sink... well, some people are better at sprinting than others, why shouldn't some people be better at casting magic sink?

Cast level I guess reflects that, people learn it early in life because they are good at it, and that should suit them very well. I know a great number of people who are remarkable good at what they do, yet are thick as a post in almost all other areas. I guess what I am saying is that smart isn't all there is to a lot of things - ie natural talent - and this should be reflected Related to that... half-mages can cast fewer spells... why should they not be good at the ones the can cast? People who can do one thing and do it right tend to do better than those who can do everything moderatly well.

Not sure I added anything to the discussion, but hopefully I prompted some different thoughts.

Davien Holyoake.

From: North Friday, December 04, 11:49PM

Well, since nobody like appending my posts, I'll have to get my warm fuzzies by appending other people's posts. Anyhow, this is all really good ideas on how to tone down everything but 3rd circle cause mages, so perhaps I'll give a pro-create point of view.

It's pretty obvious that neither of you play create mages very often, since last time I checked, it takes bout half an hour to get to the point where one can conceiveably eat 11 roots (which I believe is either the maximum or close to the maximum) and heal. However, since the actual amount of healing provided by each root seems rather random, the 400 hps is generally more like 300-500. Also, there is lag for creating roots, so it's not instant healing, and roots have a rather ephemeral lifespan which doesn't help when trying to save a few to eat later on when one actually can consume more.

Oh, and next time someone thinks being starving doesn't matter, try regenerating mv and Hp whilst meditating or moving. It's extremely fun.

I do like the ideas on the sinks though =P


From: Lelu Saturday, December 05, 12:18AM

I feel all sides here have made good points. I know were Mandarb is coming from but I also know what LadyAce is talking about. I would rath -Bah messed that up- I would rather see tree's go in in 2 months with no changed to the system right now than Have our fight code tweecked a bit and have tree's five months away. Of corse we all know tree's are never going to come so i am make'n a mute point.

Lelu - I have no idea what i just said.

From: Davien Saturday, December 05, 12:25AM

Ohh while we are at it.... can we introduce learning levels for fight skills? If you learn bash at level one, you have more chance of hitting (str added in as well I guess) than if you learn it at level 25. Str would also be used to calculate damage That would at least give spells and fight skills some parity in terms of investing pracs early on. Though having thought about it, mages are still going to be hurt hard. Still, we ain't hitters are we?

Davien Holyoake. Again.

From: Ma Saturday, December 05, 02:52AM

Roots aren't what they used to be.. You can't prep yourself a bunch anymore cos they'll POOF way before you can use them. Just as most of the spam augmenters do, create pretty much has to run to create roots & augmenters still have the option to prep & preserve which can't be done with roots.

I'm already considering augmenting instead, it only costs another 5 spirit on top of root/meditate spam & I don't need to stay hungry to get a single 'half' heal out of it.

As far as sink is concerned, my low cast level sink has been broken by high cast level spells at the same mind way more than its absorbed. -shrug- Give it a while longer, I know you haven't been back in pkill all that long.

From: Ishtar Saturday, December 05, 04:16AM

I can see the bit about giving preference for long-term goals, but there has already been quite a bit of tweaking going on (unless all thats been done is regarded as preparation for trees). I guess it depends on the costs vs benefits of the time spent 'tweaking' and its true that players often hate it, but that depends a lot on I think on whether it completely changes the way they have to play. For high-mind 3rd circle mages one possibly quite simple change would be to make the chance of getting a worse-for-wear stun much more heavily dependent on mind (so that those with 70ish mind now have a much lower chance of getting one and 90+ mind a much higher chance than currently. Stun has been downgraded quite a bit, I understand that it was probably over used and other spells under-used, but it is the one where mind should really matter. I've lost track of whether 3rd circle damage spells depend on mind, but if they don't, 70 vs 100 mind doesn't make too much difference to a mage's power.

I realise chance of worse for wear takes mind into account now but it doesn't seem to have a highly noticeable or significant effect. I've noticed getting backlash and worse-for-wear stuns in one fight against the same mob, which suggests the random factor must be a pretty strong influence.


From: Mo Saturday, December 05, 04:23AM

I've had a clanned who had used roots extensively, even after the changes, and it's not that hard to prep roots before combat. With a chalice, i've found you could easily prep 4-6 roots pre combat and go into the fight with full mana, etc etc.

Even with their shorter life span, they are still faster than cure crit and such, and has the added benefit of being able to eat tons of them at once after running a bit to prep them. Also, we could easily tone them down by having their duration mind-based as well--50 mind roots will last for 2 ticks, 60 for 3 ticks, etc until 100mind for 7 ticks. I seriously think roots should be made mind-dependant, both in the amount it heals, it fills, and it lasts... well, that was three..

As far as having to starve, in my experience, if i wanted to get hungry, as a create, there are many ways to spend time... prep creatures, setup walls in the vicinity, and meditate for the upcoming trap you'll set for the unsuspecting pker :p


From: T-Bone Saturday, December 05, 10:21AM

Roots have changed since your last create Mo, they last like 3 ticks or something, it's very rare that you'll get to use them b4 poofing unless you wait OOC or something.

Whatever, make them last 10 seconds, I don't prep with them anyway. Just a shame running to heal is possible, I mean what are the rules for duels these days if you spam to augment, spam for roots or whatever. Timeout! spam/heal drink chalice etc. The spammer having given up a lot of ren short that could have been used in +hit/dam etc will want to make use of it. hmm......


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