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worse for wears and 3rd circle

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Posted by Celeste on 12/07

I frankly think the change making worse for wears possible only for 3rd circle mages is totally unreasonable. Yes, you could say this is a self- serving argument, and it is. I am 2nd circle, I do have 100 mind. I do not in any way see the logic behind a 60 mind 3rd circle mage being able to get worse for the wear stuns while making it impossible for the 2nd circle mages who -do- have high mind.

I can see how wfw's can be irritating in pk when a 50 mind 2nd circle can stun a 28 mind fighter type silly. But one gives up a lot of stat poin ts for high mind, and at 2nd circle, you reap far far less benefits than a 3rd circle high mind mage.

Would it perhaps be possible to put a cap on wfw stuns, much like cure crit, something like 80+ mind required to get wfws? That would solve the problem of low mind mages stunning silly fighters. (Just on a side note, my pkiller is a low mind mage)

It was pointed out to me that the mana cost for damage spells has been halved. Yes. Great for 3rd circles. But 2nd circle mages don't -have- all that many damage spells. Being 2nd circle cause, and 100 mind, almost the only spells I ever use are str/armor/bless/stun. Very occasionally harm. And what with the mana upped to 35 on stun, no wfws simply because i'm 2nd circle...there is basically no reason for needing any of that mind at all.

I can still do all those things (cept stun) with 50 mind, I can cast harm, itsince it's cast level based it makes no difference to me.

Furthermore, 100 mind/spir druids are effectively limited to those things that I just listed by this wfw change. Having a 100 mind druid who has a killer stun is a wonderful thing at times, and this change just cuts them out of the picture, limiting them to just healing, since it's the only thing all that mind will be good for anyway - supplying mana for augments.

-pant- I think I'm done now.

Celeste de Rais

From: Celeste Sunday, December 06, 11:35PM

Oh yeah, another thing is that this change seems to have come totally out of nowhere?

From: Celeste Sunday, December 06, 11:43PM

Changes to wfws with the mind cap and all that make perfect sense to me now and generally rock.

Thanks to the people who heard me out through my huge hissy fit. -BOUNCE- -happy-

Celeste de Rais

From: Mo Sunday, December 06, 11:49PM

I personally don't understand where the two changes -- the one with wfw and cure crit -- came from. In pk, a 'low' mind mage is one with 60 mind, as fighters' minds are in the 25-30 area, and without at least a 30 mind diff, you CAN backlash. And boy, backlashing from a str fighter just sucks. Also, the cost of stun, which was recently raised to 35, effectively limits low mind mages from relying on stun. 2nd circle mages have, with 50-55 mind enough mana for roughly 13-15 stuns. Prepping takes roughly 60-100 mana, so roughly 10-12 stuns. And that's with doing absolutely nothing else. Countering misses to thin air, and whatever else, the cost itself limits the usefulness of stuns for low mind mages.

Cure crit, imho, is already fairly balanced in pk. The lag, the fact that it can't be cast within combat, and its cost and benefit already makes it fairly unlikely that it will be used in close proximity to the target. By reducing its potential to less than that of a cure light, it makes certain 3rd circles fairly useless. Not that i care, this is actually one category where i don't have a char that's effected, but I can see this as being fairly crippling to players.

And just as a side note, where and by whom were these changes suggested? I'd just like to know who comes up with these, as they are changes, at BEST, low low low priority concerning balance. There's tons to be done regarding snipers, a good bit more to be done regarding Kleiners, rage being useless against ppl that headbutt, and create roots being much more powerful than augment and cure crit on an empty stomach.


From: Ea! Monday, December 07, 12:58AM

I'm going to address some of the issues raised here, but mainly avoid the worse-for-wear changes as we've changed that further.

We view the change to cure crit as primarily a boost. It still heals more than cure light, though perhaps not quite as fast. For low mind mages (low mind of those who can cast cure crit), they're probably going to find that they can still heal up faster using cure light: what we're trying to do here is give a boost to those mages with closer to 100 mind. The minimum that cure crit will heal is about 13 hps (Rufus's post wasn't clear on this and said it was 9)

I'd also like to point out that Kleiners are getting a serious upgrade with these changes. If they still need more, we'll add more then, but, as always, we try to be cautious with balance changes: change it a little and if it need more, give it more.

You'll also note that augment is getting a boost.

Sniper's we're still debating how to deal with. The main problem is that they really aren't set up to be a full fledged fighting style in the current code (as dex, con, and str are). We'd really rather wait on making them a full fledged fighting style until skill trees when we'll be adding in a few skills for them (they need skills to be a sucessful fighting style).

A bunch of these changes were to try to make certain character types more playable as an extreme (particularly mages - a lot of people have been bemoaning the fact that everyone is a "1/2 mage" these days and that people who are primarily mages can't compete.)


From: T-Bone Monday, December 07, 01:23AM

I still don't see how why you're trying to get roots downgraded even further.. I don't know if it's related to me since I've been doing well lately but I haven't even used roots in 1 on 1's where there hasn't been a time out of sorts and in those situations, others are able to heal right up with augment, I can't!

From: T-Bone Monday, December 07, 01:45AM

Also why do you think Dusk augments? Because roots just aren't good enough anymore.. I also hear a lot of non clanned complain about the increased food value of roots. Go ahead and make em suffer more.. I'll just get me 5 spirit and augment.

From: McDonald Monday, December 07, 01:42AM

First there isn't anything wrong with half mages. Second these changes make it more likely that anyone from a 2nd circle hometown will be more likely to be more of a fighter and less of a mage, thereby creating more half mages?

These are big changes, and I will reserve judgement on everything, cuz it will take time to see how things go etc. But its one thing to say your chars to weak, and another to say others are too powerful. Not sure how many of you are aware of it, but theres a problem on muds with ppl always trying to complain that there classes are weak and try to get them upgraded. Now won't all the 2nd circle need to rethink their chars? Maybe lower their mind from 100 down to 60 or something.

Never thought id say this about this mud, but it seems the imms are letting everyone jerk them around a bit lately. Try not to bitch and moan about your chars problems and let the imms balance things out.

And if you feel you got screwed by these changes, have faith that things will get worked out.

From: Mo Monday, December 07, 02:39AM

60mind seems a bit low for wfw req, but it's fine by me :p Regarding the at least 10 mind more thing, unless i am mistaken, it is fairly hard to stun (at least in pk) somebody that's even 20-30 minds below you (as in, you will backlash every now and then) so I am guessing this is for mobkilling purposes... which makes me wonder if there is a difference in suscebility to stuns between mobs and players (is there, and if so, mmm, curious to know why).


From: T-Bone Monday, December 07, 03:00AM

Can't see why there's a req for wfw's, just needs to be more chance of it the higher your mind.

From: Celeste Monday, December 07, 11:02AM

Ooh, that works.


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