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Posted by Marauder on 01/07

It has always bothered me that as someone who has played here almost two years, that because of my dedication and commitment I have to suffer the consequences. What I mean by this is simply, the imms make grand changes to the system structure whether it be spells, casting costs, requirements and benefits of hometowns. I have spent many years playing my characters and dont feel that to keep up to date I must perma because I simply want to be a great character. The only time you offer us the smallest degree of change is when new skills go in, and it is my strong belief that change -s like the hometowns and such, need to be offered for consideration like new skills. Why must I waste years of play to start over because good ideas come later? Us older characters should be privilaged enough to be offered the chance to adapt easier to change rather than starting over. It may be extra work on your part, but for us who have spent 500+ hours, that is also a lot of work to be lost. Marauder - the Rambling Insane Mage

From: Fright Tuesday, January 05, 06:53AM

Good point. I know when elbow and choke were added that players had a chance to change skills, but forcing them to give up a fight skill to get the new one was a little absurd. Why would anyone intentionally take fight skills that they don't need? If new skills are added I don't see why older players should be penalized or forced to perma to stay competative. (look at Point and Mandolin after choke came in) And at this point it's a lot harder for a person to get to level 50 than it used to be, restarting your character, losing eq/strings and a huge amount of time isn't very desireable. I await the post from one of a few imms that are going to say "then suffer with what you have" I really don't think that is the point. I have noticed that less and less level 50 characters are on the mud lately. It's harder for new pleyers to get help, and new characters to get help too. I think any major change to any character should not only be posted well before the change, but that the character should have the chance to adapt to these changes and not simply be told to start over or shut up. (I am speaking from experience on choke additions, where there was a 2 week window to exchange a skill for that one, and if you didn't log on in those 2 weeks, you got screwed over) Established high level characters, (oldbies) add more positive atmosphere each to this mud than 10 level 1 characters. I don't see how making a person want to perma their character to start over helps the mud at all. Fright

From: Rufus Tuesday, January 05, 07:31AM

Okay, false use of a perma situation... Point and Mandolin perma'd because the players were sitting right next to each other, drunk off their butts, and one of us said "Hey! Let's perma each other with doppels and start over!" which at the time seemed like a really cool idea. It had nothing to do with choke, parry or anything, though we did gain those skills upon recreating the characters... it wasn't THE reason or even PART of the reason. We did it for the hell of it. -Ruf

From: LadyAce Tuesday, January 05, 09:29AM

Which new skills/changes (in particular) do you feel place oldbies at a disadvantage? I know you mentioned skill swapping, and since that is Sandra's policy to set, I'll let her speak about it. But what else? The main ones I see are the changes to stun (but stun has been all over the board for as long as I can remember), the decreased cost of damage spells (trying to make it so that a given char type doesn't completely suck, that doesn't hurt oldbies, it is more likely to help them), the increased abilities for Klein (again, I know lots of oldbies who started in Klein who are glad to get the boost), the increased abilities for London surgeons (ok, so Lima characters are not the only thing to be any more. They still have unique advantages.) Is there really a way for us to both balance the game for the people who are screaming at us every single day to fix blah thing, who are upset at having to wait an entire week for a change, and for the people who want to know about changes a month in advance? We can't please everyone, and so we do what we think is right. On the one hand, I understand that having more notice on changes would allow players to adjust more easily, it also means that we have to sit through hours and hours of people ranting about how they hate the change or how they want us to put it in right away because the situation is a dire emergency. In addition, some of the changes we make are because a particular combo is simply too powerful. And with those kinds of changes, there is no way for a char with that too powerful combo, to recover from the loss. In most cases, we try to balance a bonus in one area with a loss in another, to prevent the mud from going down in a mad power spiral. On another note, our changes are not made with any intent to annihilate a given character type. If your type has been annihilated, then we went too far, and when we understand how to fix it, we'll do so. In the mean time, if you've perma'd your character and started all over, you'll never know if we were able to fix the problem. -LA

From: Fright Tuesday, January 05, 09:56AM

Hmm, I heard different reasons from one of the 2 characters, but those characters aside, it still happens with others. Those 2 names just came to mind. I know there are people that did perma because of choke and parry and that they didn't have the practices to get the skills or have the fightskills to swap for those fightskills. I think the lima/london change was one that supports my previous append. For a very long time, if you were a going to become a surgeon, there was no contest what city was better, lima. Once the bonus to london surgeons came in, I noticed a lot of liman surgeons stopped playing (I won't give their names at the risk of being wrong, but I know there are some). Why couldn't these characters have had the option of switching hometowns when the change went in? I know it's dumb to complain about something that happened 6 months ago or more, but it's simply an example. I am sure that most players who had liman characters weren't too thrilled with the bonus to the londoners when they couldn't change hometown. With a change like the bonus to klein characters fight skills, there should also be the option to change hometowns. I don't think many old characters came from klein, or really many characters at all, old or new. But again, I am sure that there are fighters out there that came from somewhere else because klein wasn't terribly good, that would now love to be from klein to gain the advantages that the klein fighters get. I am not sure that granting this option to a level 2 character is viable simply for the amount of work it could potentially cause for the imms. But if the change was allowed 1 TIME ONLY, fo chracters over a set level (level 10 seems reasonable to me) it really can't affect too many characters (wanting to change). As for what to do with skills that were learnt and couldn't be had as a klein character, there are options like returning the practices and losing the skills. Also, a 2 week window to do this would be absurd, since not everyone logs on every 2 weeks. I am sure most people do, but you should be able to have equally good characters if you spend 500 hours on the character spanning 1 year, as 500 hours spanning 1 month. Some people simply can't be on everyday. I am not saying this should be law. I just think that if the immortal staff is going to significantly change a specific part of a character (as well as a major part) that these options should be given. This does not mean that if a cause spell is changed, you give the person the option to go create. I mean major changes. (skills in the game, hometown changes relating to character creation, adding in new spellwords, etc) I think we see enough perma in pkill, of players that want to try a new character type in pkill. There is no need to 'help' more characters to follow the perma option. Fright

From: Fright Tuesday, January 05, 10:11AM

Changes like stun can be fixed with the swapping of eq and that's not too difficult to do. Decreasing damage spells cost doesn't affect anyone but 3rd circle mages (yeah, 1 or 2 non-3rd circle spell) and it's not giving them a disadvantage. I'd like to think that suggestions made on this board are above the realm of 'screaming' but if that's how you see it, so be it. I know that my posts here are meant to be constructive, and 99% of the other posts I read here are constructive. I would go as far as to say that often the least constructive posts that are on this board are from immortals. (simply saying somethign can't or won't be done isn't very constructive at all, at least give a reason) There is also a very large difference between bug fixes and major changes. I don't think bug fixes need to be warned 3 weeks in advance, but for something like hometowns/surgery change or fight system changes, it woundn't hurt to post "this is coded and ready, and it will go in in 2 (or 3 or whatever) weeks time barring some flaw/bug/holes that we missed" Changes to spells/combos that are too powerful I would consider a bug fix. Fright

From: Sandra Tuesday, January 05, 10:27AM

When I put up the 2 week time limit on exchanging skills, I gave a weeks notice prior to that(making it 3 weeks total). The time limit was given so that those that weren't level 50 at the time would not be able to decide to hit 50 spend pracs and then ask for the exchange as was attempted several times during the last skills exchange. As far as changing hometowns. Um, no. If you seriously think that you need to perma a character and start it from the new improved hometown, well that's pretty silly. Why not keep the high level one and just make a new one? Either way you're starting over, though the second you keep the work you've done already. I seriously doubt we'd ever allow exchanging hometowns. Its entirely too much work. As for perma in pkill. If you think that little of your character to start with, as some tool that you can discard quickly when one or two changes go in to another type, then I suggest that you not complain to us about your work going to waste. We're not the ones telling you to perma. The majority of the people that put alot of work into their characters actually keep them and make new ones to test the change. Retiring pkillers or just using them as non- pkillers. I find it funny that it seems to be the fault of the staff that some of the players want everything and can't have it all. -Sandra

From: LadyAce Tuesday, January 05, 10:49AM

I agree with Fright that most of the posts on the discussion board are reasonably sane and do not qualify as screaming. However, there are a number of other methods by which players voice their opinions, including tells, chats, mudmail, etc. At any rate, I'll try to remember this request and if I hear of any changes which people might like a longer time span on, I'll ask that it be delayed. In addition, when the code changes are posted, players have the option of asking that a given change be delayed. While this is not always easy to do, depending on the nature of the code, it is worth asking about if you feel strongly about the subject. -LadyAce

From: Parasite Tuesday, January 05, 01:34PM

I have to agree with Fright and Marauder here with the fact that I'm remaking a character from Klein now and feel that I need to ditch my pkiller who has been around for a year or greater. You think its easy to have negative experience to level and that I want to throw it away? No, yet I dont have many options. Some considerations should be given to those who have at least demonstrated great commitment to this mud, especially by achieving 100 million experience, long hours and what not. Parasite

From: Sandra Tuesday, January 05, 01:45PM

If your pkiller has negative exp to level, then it should also have 3 redemption points, one of which could be used to unclan. Then there is no need for you to 'get rid of' your pkiller, you can simply retire him/her from pkill. As someone that has alot of characters, I find the 'I have to perma to compete' argument a bad one. The fact that not one type is simply THE best any longer should be reason enough to keep the one you have and try different things with it. Taking the easy way out and going with the newest 'in' thing is lazy, imo. If you want a challenge, think for yourself, and don't follow what everyone else does. There is probably no way that we will allow a hometown switch. I have no intent on putting that much extra work on myself or the rest of the admin staff because a few people think that they should be able to have everything. I'm sorry, but it just isnt' going to happen. -Sandra

From: LadyAce Tuesday, January 05, 02:50PM

I think there is a distinction to be made between when we remove the usefullness of a given skill, and when we simply readjust the relative power of a given skill. Giving a surgery bonus to London makes London a more competitive choice for a hometown when you create a character, but it does not make a Liman surgeon so irrelevant that you ought to toss them away. It may give a dedicated Liman surgeon reason to pick up some good brewing skills and maybe a little shooting or parrying, however. If some players decide that they only want to group London surgeons, then it's their loss. I know there are plenty of players out there who will take on a fighting companion with skills to complement their own, regardless of where that person is from. On the other hand, sometimes we pull out the usefulness of something altogether. In that case, we reimburse as best we can. -LA

From: Hrutwang Tuesday, January 05, 02:50PM

I think, I'm old character. Yes, if I could change hometown, i would was from Kleinstadt. Sandra, you and all imms will not allow a hometown switch but think about what i will say. There is enough chars at L50, who were great, now are normal or poor, therefore ppl archieved them. Let to give them chance start again, but give them something what will help them. For example gettimg more exps per mob than normal character. It means, somebody will tell imms that he wants to keep this char, but he is poor now. He can start new character but it will take long time and he can for example never get his exps back. What I want to say, he will start from L1, but for example with bonus - 9x more exps per mob than he will get his exps back. it will be funny and maybe we will see on chars about whom we thought, that we will never see again. yes, they will need to keep old name. Only one problem here. it will be not accept for pkillers. And yes, if he dies, he will lost 9x more exps. it seems fair I think and it will be not so hard to programme this. It is all what I wanted to say. My 2 cents, Hrutwang.

From: Beta Tuesday, January 05, 02:58PM

why not let people use their redemptions points when skills trees go in to change their hometown

From: Rufus Tuesday, January 05, 03:14PM

Changing hometown is not a matter of switching the hometown, it involves changing 4 axioms, reimbursing skills that you no longer qualify for (or we could opt for the 'tough luck' principal and tell the people who wasted 20some pracs on spellwords that they just can't cast spells any more)... it WOULD be a pain, and not something that could be easily handled like the redemption system is currently. -Ruf

From: Beta Tuesday, January 05, 03:20PM

i ment to say that when skills trees go in and with the skill wipe I heard of. you could redeem your points from something that cloud be given to an admin, who would then go and change those things that needed to be changed. maybe you could require 2 redempiton points to change hometowns, and only let it be for a short time around when skills trees is implemented. If some of the rumors of things i have heard about skills trees turn out to be true (for example, but not nessicarily true, the inability to learn fightskills from agrabah) some characters will need some way to change, or else be completly ineffective at anything. also if new home towns are made avaible, then I think that chage would be similar to a new skill being made avaible that affected game balance, with the cost for the change being the aformentioned redemption points.

From: Adolfus Tuesday, January 05, 08:55PM

The biggest joke in my opinion, is limited the time you can exchange something, ie skills. Headbutt for choke etc. So what if you announced it 3 weeks prior sandra, thats not any amount of time at all. Any archived player should have the option of getting choke for headbutt when unarchiving. In fact any chars that are dex fighters and have headbutt and not choke, should be able to turn it in. What this would be too much work for you. I don't see the advantage of bunching all your work into a three week period unless its just to screw those ppl that dont get the change done in time. If its some char that was made after the change to headbutt then you can tell them no for that reason. I find it very silly also that the xp for somme and roman britain was reduced or mob hp raised also, from what I could tell somme anyway was praised for being a good xp area. Tho I have yet to xp there since the change, as I and some others have been playing medievia.

From: Sandra Tuesday, January 05, 09:47PM

And what your suggesting is better? You'd like me to spend all of my time watching who creates what character and learns what skills, and what fight stat they use just so that later on they may or may not be able to exchange headbutt for choke? Give me a break. Three weeks was plenty of time for the level 50s to exchange their skills. Those under level 50 had the pracs to learn what they wanted. The majority of the people got their exchanges in, btw. And there were some that were archived for an extended period that were allowed to exchange also when they returned, if they had no pracs remaining. -Sandra

From: Gwalchmai Tuesday, January 05, 10:11PM

I had a level 50 Liman surgeon that I was extremely fond of, but whom I have had archived and do not intend to play again anytime soon because of a variety of factors. A) the changes to fight/surgery, so surgeons are no longer able to fight while operating, b) the upgrade to surgery for Londoners, c) the xp split from the new xp scale - everyone wants a "mid-level londoner" these days, not a level 50 liman, who's perceived as sucking far more xp than he/she is worth, and d) the addition of an in game brewing mob. In reply to LA's post that Liman surgeons could find some way to "upgrade" themselves via parry/shoot/brew, etc. Mine did -all- of that. And still what I've found with him is that the only people who say they'd take him over a mid-level londoner are friends. With other characters this would be fine, but large group, intensely social interaction was one of the key parts of this surgeon's RP. Which - with the new xp scale discouraging big kill-everything groups, and with Liman's being perceived as not up to par with Londoners in areas that -need- large groups (SL, Dis), effectively made him redundant. I suppose I'd just like to point out that this "you can go on playing if you really like the character" attitude, which implies that I -didn't- put a lot of time and effort into this particular surgeon, not to mention the rest of my alts, rather peeves me. Gwalchmai ap Lot

From: Rebate Tuesday, January 05, 11:07PM

Figured I'd had better post because in the 4 years that I've been playing on legend I can agree with Sandra :P. In all the years that I have been here I've only peram'd one character and he was a pkiller. Why? because I found out that I don't particularly like pkill and at that time reaching 100mil was to far outta reach. Currently I have 8 L50 characters and 2 more in the 40's. Why so many? because everytime the imms make a change I create a new character to try out the new changes. And yes I still do play all of my L50's. I still love playing my limian surgeon, together with another surgeon from lima we make quite a team. Even the character I created in Klein over 3 years ago is played alot. And yes I waited forever for him to receive a bonus of somekind. Point is I didn't perma him, no need to. Make adjustments if you have to but don't perma them or complain that they suck and you have to. Especially if your not a pkiller. Anyway that's it for now. Rebate

From: Gwalchmai Wednesday, January 06, 12:30AM

I've 8 level 50s as well, counting the archived. I was merely stating my point of view, which, I believe, I'm entitled to just as much as Rebate is I also did emphasize that a major part of what made me archive my liman surgeon was the highly social, big group aspect that was part and parcel of what he was, and which I've found he's no longer able to get. Again I'd like to say that just because I've archived him and don't play him because of a variety of changes in no way means I didn't put a lot of effort into him, and the implication that anyone who stops playing a particular character because of changed must never really have cared much about that alt in the first place really annoys me. Gwalchmai ap Lot

From: Rei Wednesday, January 06, 06:18AM

Speaking as a Liman surgeon, did the London boost affect my abilities? It didn't. I'm still the person I set out to be. Of course I couldn't match a Londoner operate for operate, but there's so much more I can do that he can't. Would you rather we were level on surgery, and I had lots of other nifty skills while he was stuck with 20 practices? The current lack of demand for Liman surgeons is not because London surgeons are overpowered, but because the Limans just haven't found their niche. Are you suggesting that since the Klein update all Celtic fighters are going to be redundant? I play a level 50 London surgeon too, and he doesn't find it much easier to find a group than this Liman does. If I decided that after the change to Klien, I wanted to be a Kliener, I'd make a character from Klien. Who knows? Someday Limans will be able to augment, get second circle words etc.. and then everyone will pestet .. er.. pester the immorts to change all characters to Limans. Legend is not about being the best character on the MUD.. it's about knowing the strengths and weaknesses of each character, and use each to your best ability to fit in. If I suddenly became a Londoner, I'd still have no one to group with because some selfish people only want to group with small Londoners. It's not my problem. It's not the MUD's problem.. it's not the imm's problem. It's a player problem. If I think I'll like being a certain character from a certain hometown due to some nifty changes.. I'll do just that.. make one - it's not THAT hard if you're not too lazy. If I perma this character simply because she can't compete with a London surgeon.. someday I'll regret it, and I'll whine about Limans being overpowered again. Just try a new character.. variety is the spice of life, and nothing comes from nothing. You don't start characters at level 50.. you build them. Rei Ayanami

From: LadyAce Wednesday, January 06, 11:49AM

I do think that Gwalmachai has a good point about the preference for midlevel Londoners, but the precise problem is not our changes to London. The problem is with healers, and grouping healers. After all, I don't see any more call for level 50 London surgeons or lvl 50 druids, than I do for a lvl 50 Liman surgeon. It's obvious that the xp scale changes have hurt healers, but the reason for the damage is, in my mind, not a simple one. On the one hand, you have healers who work ungrouped, who sit in inns and bot heal. If they are conveniently located, a lot of the usage for a grouped healer disappears. One of the virtues of having a healer is the ability to keep on fighting continuously, without having to stop and rest, and for mages at least, to devote their mana to damage spells rather than to healing, or to prolong their need to meditate. That need disappears with the ungrouped/bot healing. The healing need which remains is the 'keeping you alive' type of healing, i.e. for large runs, large mobs, deep trips into hell/SL. Another factor in this is the xp split, which we're working on, and mob xp value, which we're also working on. A third angle to this is player perception. On the one hand, it is unfair for people to suddenly view all limans as worthless. Plainly, they're not, and those who refuse to accept them are missing out. As a last dimension of the problem, what about the healers themselves? I don't want to 'blame the victim' but in this case the victims have power to do something about their situation. You can make arguments on your own behalf. You can demonstrate your usefulness. You can be more proactive -- heck, if this sort of thing happened in real life, the surgeons of the world would unionize :) As we examine what the immortal staff can do to fix problems, I don't want anyone to forget how much players can do to fix problems, too. -LadyAce

From: Shine Wednesday, January 06, 11:59AM

I'm not choosing between low level or high level surgeon. If somebody is surgeon, i'm grouping with him. Myself, I don't like small surgeon. They don't have mana all the time. And as a fighter I need surgeon around me or I can kill mobs in dun and go to read a book for another 25 minutes. -blink- Shine, the son of Aaron

From: Mandarb Wednesday, January 06, 07:40PM

Just a side note, I DID have a char archived for a very LONG time, this time covering the choke change. Upon returning I asked to exchange it and was rejected because I had been on with other characters. Sorry, but I archived him for a reason, because if i didn't I'd forget he existed becauseh...oooh...HE SUCKS. But anyway, this is off topic, my character sucking has little to do with my point. I was archived for like 6 months and upon unarchiving was rejected choke. Whatever, its bs if you ask me, but nobody ever does. This damn append is far at the bottom nobody wille ven read it.

From: Sandra Wednesday, January 06, 07:58PM

Yep, you were turned down. You were on consistantly during those two weeks as other characters. Therefore you were not gone and could have very easily ask to unarchive that char, as others did for their own during that time, get the exchange, and then archive again. -Sandra

From: Adolfus Thursday, January 07, 12:05AM

If you don't have time to do your job get someone to do it in your place. Think some of you may be suffering from burnout. Someone who I respect made the statement 'absolute power corrupts absolutely regarding the imms here. I won't mention names, and im sure they didnt mean it as a blanket statement, but I think its obvious to most of us anyway that imms should be trying to make this game more fun so it will attract more players. For the most part I would say you could use player reaction as a guage for this. Now you state a reason for not giving Mandarb's char choke/heabutt change, which would lead me to believe that your possibly evalutating on a case by case basis. But on the other hand you state that no reimbs will be given for any reason. Which is flat wrong. If someone just now came back and pulled a char out of archive that hasnt played since they change, they would have to come beg you to bend the rules. Which is typical mud behavior I would say, kinda like cops, they want power over others and for ppl to beg them for things, and to recieve adoration for being an imm. As someone who is just a Player, I would like to remind you imms if you don't like your jobs, you can always step down. Then you would have time for whatever. If there is another job that is more important your working on then id say its time to get smore imms to help out. If you find yourself posting a lame excuse for something id say delete it and see if you cant find another solution. That goes for the pkill points system that was suggested and a myriad of other things ive heard naysayed. peace

From: Wraith Thursday, January 07, 01:19AM

I would have to agree that more players would be good. However, the players desired, would not please you. ;) I would much rather have players interested in at least some RP and interacting with mobs. If all you are looking for is advancing your character's abilities or fighting other characters, you could try Diablo. ;) - Wraith

From: Adolfus Thursday, January 07, 01:37AM

That kinda makes sense, but id say make the game more fun. Don't make the mud less fun in order to keep ppl away. And id say to me anyway it seems theres more undesirables than there was a few years back and the player base hasnt expanded to a large extent. I wouldnt want things to be made too easy or for ppl to be overpowered. Id rather mobs fight more intelligently, and be worth a lot more xp. I would say 10x harder for 10x more xp, but with the xp for high lvl mobs atm just upping the xp 10x would balance it. Id say number 1 priority should be reevaluating mob xp.

From: Hrutwang Thursday, January 07, 04:05AM

Diablo sucks.


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