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Pk Points - Clarified (sort of)

1999 Topic Index

Posted by Mo on 01/12

1 - On ppl racking points -- make points only visible to the player. It should work no different from ppl having 101:26 on their title; only one person (the player) knows for sure. 2 - On multis -- I thought i mentioned that there be a 10 tick period where a player or players can get a point from the same character -- if a character gave a point to another char(s) within 10 ticks, make it so that he/she doesn't until the timer is up. 3 - More code -- There already is an extra option on the redemption code, a lot of code checks for pk-flags, etc.. one more can't seriously hurt :p 4 - Unclanning being 'easy.' -- If anything, it would be a lot harder, given a good target score in order to retire. Fights and duels are fairly hard to secure, and people will still need to mobkill in order to recover from deaths. Also, now clanned people MUST pk in order to unclan, which wasn't the case before. Before, it was almost the opposite, most pkers who decide to retire fading into obscurity long before that decision or the most active chars not having the time to retire. Currently, as i see it, there are roughly a half dozen to a dozen chars that are pkenabled, within range, and can be attacked without risking the target blowing up ooc (you know, those sensitive, uncool folk :p). For most clanned players, the crowd is the same old crowd -- you hate their guts, or you get along so well that you can't really keep fighting them before it becomes somewhat boring and predictable. Don't even try the "rp" talk with me, the only thing remotely akin to rp that works in pk is the player realizing that his character is just that; a toy to have fun with, not some avatar of their split ego. Having said that, I'll once again fade into obscurity and await for responses :) Mo!

From: Mo Monday, January 11, 05:35PM

A few more things: The only reasoning behind making unclanning difficult, as far as I can fathom, is to prevent people from clogging disk space (which they'll probably do anyway using unclanned chars). T-Bone brings up a good point, something that usually gets neglected among non-pkers. For pkers, if we want to try out a new character, it means trying them out in pk. Under the current 1 clanned per player rule, this is only possible when: 1 - Keep unclanning. woohoo. 2 - Keep permaing and recreating. geez. 3 - Cheat! Being a good mudizen, number 3 isn't really an option for me (pat self, rub stomach) and 1 and 2 really is a waste of man-hours. Although there are merits to having some things hard to earn, there really isn't a point in grinding a veteran player over and over again until he/she finally gets sick of it, sticks to one character, and fades into the background, or imms. Face it, that is the trend really -- people go through their newbie stage, their fumbling stage, the productive stage, then become recluses :p I agree that bringing up a character is indeed a part of trying a new char type, but I don't think that it should cost us another character, or a huge amount of time toiling away in a proven xp run, over and over... Mo!

From: Zeppelin Monday, January 11, 05:52PM

-nod Mo- I honestly think it would add something here. Sandra did bring up some good objections, but there are also counter-points to why it would work. I would like to see Ea!'s and Rufus' comments btw. Zep

From: Ulric Monday, January 11, 06:46PM

I agree blah blah blah Lord Ulric -way into his recluse stage-

From: Mym Monday, January 11, 09:09PM

Mo! brings up very good points, as always. I agree with pretty Much everything he said except the multi part. I'm not sure if simply putting the ten tick limit in would keep people from doing this, I don't think anything will for that mattter, so why worry about it to begin with? -boggle- In any case I don't see multi's ever getting worse than they are now, if someone wants to multi you and gets that opportunity, their immaturity will probably show. (we do seem to have quite a few "young 'uns" these days, which it is my opinion that that is the reason pkill sucks the wat it does. To be honest I really don't see much multi with the 'better' pkillers, and I think that is due to the fact that they are more mature. (I know, I'm babbling) But so many people "sandra mostly" says that pk will not be changed because of multi. I disagree, mutli will not change because of pk. In looking around and judging by a post I read, people do not want to pkill at all at this point. My opinion is that this is due to the mentality of the present pkillers in general. I think that duels should be HIGHLY encouraged for new pk'ers so that they can use it as a learning experience. Instead, these newbie pkillers are jumped by people who want to "look cool" on Info, which is unsatisfactory. So, what this all boils down to is this: Pkill should remain EXACTLY as it is now, except for one thing, it should be devided into two categories. One for the older people who know what they are doing, and the other as a starting point for the less experiened player, then maybe we can have people actually gain interest in pkill, instead of killing the same person over and over and over and over under a different name, which does get old. Mym - Highly annoyed

From: Mym Monday, January 11, 09:29PM

And of course the player themself would have the choice of when the enter the higher level of pkill. Mym.

From: Papercut Monday, January 11, 09:30PM

Multi is becoming less and less of a problem because there is so little pk going on in the higher levels. None of the players who pk at the 50 range would intentionally decrease their gaming pool by multi'ing, so most pk up there stays within 1-2 deaths, depending on how hot-headed the victim may be on that day. As far as new pker/old pker thing... no way. The whole point of being clanned is to learn even when you are not quite yet ready, and to make the best out of what you are dealt with, in a dynamic fashion. If you seriously don't wan't to be jumped, all you have to do is simply say so while not doing anything to provoke it -- and when you do get jumped, deal with it like a mature person, and brush it off if you die. One death can only set you back so much, and rarely do ppl loot out of spite (i only speak for those in the lvl 50 range). Multi exists, in my opinion, mostly because it is so darn easy to get away from fights, log when your hunter is not here, then regen, and have the cycle repeat... or worse, retalitate in a wolfpack, building frustration on the hunter who feels wronged -- they never get that kill which in their view was rightly theirs, while the prey keeps taunting ooc or what not. Imho, ppl who get multi'd tend to deserve it one way or another, and if they didn't, there's always retribution (which, as it so happens, comes almost certainly due to the amount of pk fervor a sense of justice whips up among even the most recluse-like pkers). Mo!

From: Papercut Monday, January 11, 09:38PM

Argh. argh. argh

From: Rufus Monday, January 11, 09:43PM

my comments: I -might- entertain the idea of such a system if: 1) there was a reason for them to continually participate in mob killing as well as playerkilling. The focus of this mud is on the former, not the latter (in terms of game play, it's focus is much wider, but mob kill is a staple, pkill is a feature) and by this I mean I might well accept it if the xp penalty for death for pkillers is equal to a normal death from a mob. 2) No xp is given for pkill kills. You get points or xp, one or the other, not both 3) I don't spend any more than about 15 minutes coding it, and no additional time maintaining it. I hate separating pkill code and mobkill code. There was once upon a time when the only difference was the instant death spell. Now certain sections of the code have become so completely different as to make modifying, adjusting, and balancing pure hell. 4) there remains the threat of perma, by either the current means (lack of xp) or by some other means (set number of deaths at a given level, or some such). Death on this mud will always be a setback by design, and I don't see any reason why this should change. 5) the use of said system increasing other parts of the game as well (rp in pkill, less complaints and demands of system maintainance where pkill and not the rest of the game is concerned, etc) There's nothing worse than putting in hours and hours trying to make the mud better for everyone only to have any little thing nitpicked by someone to the point it turns you off ever trying to add anything that might be looked upon favorably. Please note, however, the 'might' in the second line... that's a very shakey 'might' at best. -Ruf

From: Myrella Monday, January 11, 10:14PM

If people are so worried about multing and such a tick timer of 5-10 ticks on the a person that if they are killed again by another the person doing the multing loses these so called 'pkill points' at an ever incresing rate for each mutli.. 1 then 2 etc... If you want mob kill in for atleast some pkillers once again require anyone that does get the required amount of 'pkill points' must also reach level 50 to unclan.. Its either that or force some sort of counter saying you must kill X amount of mobs of equal or greater level than your own... I do very much like the idea of an alternate way to unclan than the current system , the biggest problem with the current is pkilling, especially if you lose regularily puts a very big damper on any serious atempt to unlcan unless you avoid pkill as much as possible for the time it takes you to amass the required 50 million xp. Just and after thought.. I find it both curious and annoying that under the new xp system it is harder to unclan than the old.. Myrella

From: Papercut Monday, January 11, 10:46PM

1 - setting the score max to a certain level, ppl will have to mobkill in order not to perma before they can unclan. Also, with the gear scrappag there will always be reason for mobkill, clanned or not. Other minor mobkill will take place when killing trans mobs, and innkeepers, or simply just to pass time while hanging out with unclanned. 2 - the amount of xp you get from pk is quite small, but it is a nice sum. considering that you need xp to stay alive, and points to unclan, i don't see why they can not coexist. If anything, it would be additional coding in order to make pk not give xp. There is some xp loss due to fleeing as it is. However, if given a choice, i'd definately vote for having no xp and points. 3 - I don't see any maintenance problems, and I can't see coding being too difficult, but i have no way of judging what you can or cannot do in 15 minutes... i see it becoming either an addition to the xp-giving code, or even connected to info, perhaps (regardless of its on/off state). It is possible that ppl might want it connected to the ooc/pk timer, which probably should be merely a line or so (i think :p) 4 - the threat of perma will always be present. pkers will still lose xp by dying, be it from pkers or mobs. Again, by setting the 'goal' a certain way it could be achieved. (total points/number of deaths in order to attain score) x (amount of xp lost when dying) = a set amount of xp probably equal or greater to reaching the next level... something like that. 5 - Points could be awarded to a player as a prize (esp, having the pk tourney point accumulation getting carried over to this port, plus some bonus for winners) to give to char(s) of his choice (so that he/she may even clan future chars with more than 0 pts at the moment of clanning?) RP wise, we could, possibly, have the point system incorporated into the range in pk, such that if there is a vast difference (30 pts?) that only the lesser holder of points may initiate combat or aggressive action. Or such points could be given out as prizes for weekly RP awards for pkers (pr dept :p) or for submitting articles to the lt related to the enabled char. Of course, with housing, payments for clan halls could be made in points in conjunction with money to ensure activity in the clan, amount to be determined by the clan itself as part of a guiding line of its involvement in pk (hermetics may opt to pay its entirety in cash, while mercs might want a larger portion to be points). Pc

From: Rufus Monday, January 11, 11:06PM

Of course, my dream solution to the whole PK thing is to build a sufficent machine to handle two simultaneous muds, one PK, one not. =) Ruf

From: Papercut Monday, January 11, 11:15PM

mmm. two muds layered on top of each other, such that altho the chars can talk to each other and see each other yet are in completely different layers? or simply having two ports :P

From: Rufus Monday, January 11, 11:18PM

Two different ports. Same code, same areas, two different muds.

From: Zealot Monday, January 11, 11:17PM

-nodnod- that sounds fun! I'd be up for that if its possible. As for what rufus said in his append #8 - "There was once upon a time when the only difference was the Instant Death spell. Now certian sections of the code have become so completly different as to make modifying, adjusting and balancing pure hell." I know that at least part of that is not at all the fault of the pkillers. Older Legendites will remember when many spells affected other players such as scatter, wall of stone, dopples, elementals, earthquake, etc etc.. They got changed to further childproof our actions so we dont hurt each other :P. Now spells like those do not affect non-pker's but obviously they affect pker's.

From: Adolfus Monday, January 11, 11:22PM

First I want to give a link for those seriously interested about this to read, its a rather serious look at pkill. And I learned a bit by reading it. Mainly why we get mad when we pkill and what the problems with pkill are. Basically for those that dont want to read the article, ppl get pissed when they get killed for no reason, by someone who isn't roleplaying. Like some idiot that chats how you like that you beeAAitch. after killing you. imaginaryrealities.imaginary.com/volume1/issue2/beyond_pk.html In the next post rufus started about medievia, I talked about different areas, neutral pk, chaos pk. One where there are no concequences and the other where you lose everything. This would split things from the men and the boys as someone in an earlier append to this thread suggested. And I have to disagree with posting you dont want to be pkilled as a valid way not to be pkilled, it happens all the time, and not everyone reads teh boards that often. Anyway thats all for now, check that link, if your interested

From: Adolfus Monday, January 11, 11:42PM

Id also like to say, that I really liked A quiet road in somme in that it was a safe room and norecall, I think all safe rooms should be this way really, as it allows one to go afk etc, while not being cheaply killed. I don't really feel recalling someone whois afk in a recall room is very honorable, or adds much to the game. As such I think the somme safe room added a lot to the game, it is a big pkill player hangout. Its very I did most of my afk hanging out anyway, and quiet a few ppl stopped by.

From: Fright Tuesday, January 12, 07:30AM

I like the idea of making a cap on the amount of points you can gain at each level, therefore forcing people to level SOETIMES. I lov this @show "show

From: Sandra Tuesday, January 12, 07:33AM

I'm reading all of these, and at this time, I'm going to wait on any comments, because I'd like to hear more. I do have one thing to respond to now though, and that is Zealot's post regarding spells. Those spells were changed because of pkill. Anyone remember a certain grendel firestorming newbies in tara? Or certain pkillers ordering their charmed mob(s) to kill a nonpkiller? Pkillers have(and no this doesn't mean all) become more concerned about themselves than they have about the mud as a community, at an ever increasing rate. I see more of them telling nonpkillers to shut up on chat, because they're not pkill, or to clan if they want to speak to them, etc. So, yes, most of the code changes that Rufus talks about were done because of pkill and pkillers thinking that no one else is as good as they are, simply because they have that little number in their pfile that nonclanned don't. -Sandra

From: Adolfus Tuesday, January 12, 10:09AM

Sandra I think its obvious if youve got a bug where someone can firestorm newbies then some idiot is gonna do it. Why don't you see it for what it is, a bug in the system. You might as well be saying, even though if you pkill enable you can kill others we dont want you do to this please dont. If you played some of these larger muds you would realize, most ppl that play muds are 14 year old brats, god forbid you had to deal with 500 players average on this mud.

From: LadyAce Tuesday, January 12, 12:30PM

I have an idea about pk points, and since I have not run this by any other immortals and just now thought of it, please consider it only an idea to add to the mix. What about a compromise between experience and points? AND what about granting points for both winning and dying in a fight? Perhaps the points would count towards your redemption point, but not towards your xp total. I think it is essential that pkillers stay involved in mobkill. For one thing, I think that both the non-enabled and enabled would suffer from the separation. I personally would greatly miss having grand xp runs with a mix of enabled and non-enabled friends. I think the balance of chars is much better if a pk'er has that extra motivation to mobkill -- there simpl are not many healers in pk, and in fact probably never will be a huge number. I'm not saying that it is a terrible idea to be a healer in pk, I'm saying that specializing yourself for healing is not going to be the most successful way to become a good fighter, just by the nature of the profession. This is in addition to the points made by others about pk being a 'feature' not a 'focus'. However, it makes sense to me that since unclanning is a specifically pkill sort of thing, it could have some pk-related requirements attached to it. Here's some numbers to show how I'm thinking.... 2 pkill points for a win, 1 for a loss. 45 mil to unclan with 10 pk points 40 mil to unclan with 20 pk points. etc... These aren't suggested numbers at all -- I'd want to have some kind of logical base to them. -LadyAce


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