Discussion Index

pkill and random thoughts

1999 Topic Index

Posted by Sandra on 01/13

I have been reading the threads here in the past few days, regarding pkill, medevia, and the discussion on the upcoming new OOC, and I want to collect all of my thoughts on each of them here. 1. On Legend being compared to Medevia. I'm not sure that I like comparing things that happen on one mud to things that happen on another. I mean, some good ideas have been given, don't get me wrong. But the main thing that runs through my mind is, we're not Medevia. The problem, I find, with the npk cpk, or whatever they were(I don't recall, sorry), is that I think that would cater to the gamer type pkiller, and leave the others out in the cold. Yes, they could easily use these 'zones', but just as easily, the gamer type could use the entire mud. I wonder, why all of these people have come to the staff in order to change pkill. From my point of view there's nothing wrong with pkill on this mud. There IS something wrong with the pkillers(now don't get mad until you read the rest). I see, daily, people saying 'Oh I have no one to kill, pkill is so boring!'. The funny part is, I see three or four saying this at once, all being in the same range, in clans that hate each other, and all sitting ooc saying it. The first thought to my mind is: HELLO! I don't believe that there is much that we, as the staff, can do about that. And I do believe that that is the biggest problem with pkill lately. Instead of saying that pkill is boring here, do something to change it. This is where the pkillers need to get off their asses(so to speak), and do something for themselves. No amount of code will change what goes on currently. 2. On the OOC changes that PR is working on. While some don't use OOC much, or at all, others do. For this reason I think that we should stop thinking of ourselves as the only person on the mud, and realize that there are others. So, if you have no ideas on the specific topic there, just leave it at that. The PR department has a HUGE task here with the OOC, and they want to make it fun for those that use it, and perhaps get others interested as well. Don't make it difficult for them. 3. On retiring from pkill. These are some good ideas in general. Though I still have my doubts on seperating the enabled from the unenabled any more than now, I do like some of the ideas. But, I am less inclined to do much about them currently, and I'll explain why.(You can also re-read my first point above) I am increasingly tired of pkenabled people thinking that they are better than the rest of the mud. Now, this may or may not apply to you, but even if it doesn't, read on. The attitude of the pkillers makes me sick, most of the time. This mud is not a pk mud. Pkill is a feature, and one that is becoming more of a problem than its worth, when those that use this feature are becoming more and more like the spoiled brats that we would all love to throttle. If pkillers want new things, my suggestion to them(and this does apply to everyone) is to change the way your part of the community behaves. Its a big task. But no bigger than what is being demanded by us, and one that is more important, imo. I would like to see people acting maturely, before I even consider changing things, including retirement. Hell, I'll even work on the code for it, if we can get something balanced out of the ideas if I have to. But I want the above to happen first. I'm tired of the 'gimme' from others, now I'm going to say 'gimme' to you. These are the things -I- want to see, lets see if I get them. -Sandra

From: Adolfus Tuesday, January 12, 09:41AM

wow, I want to commend rufus again on how he responded to our posts, cuz heres a post I almost totally disagree with. Except for point number 2. First I think it shows a certain attitude of wanting to dismiss the ideas offhand, trouble even citing examples. Specifically The i don't recall sorry part. Secondly I think they show a certain naivete about the situation, and the sort of ingrained thoughts we definately don't need in an imm. Mostly because they are just wrong and secondly because they are detrimental. First Im not sure exactly what was meant by the zones catering to gamers statement, this needs clarifying. Having zones is in use now, having a single saferoom, is having one small little zone of no pk. Secondly, oft times have I heard complaints about how pkill was causing trouble and how the imms might just rip it out. Well I got news for you Sandra, your dead wrong about the players being the problem. It is the system that is the problem, you only have to look at other muds to see this is true. Muds that make no limits on pkill are madhouses, like duris was, there were no level limits and only a racewar theme, evil against good, but once you left justice areas you could kill anyone. Ie if you were good you could kill other good align races, and guess what, it was rampant. A hundred times more brutal than here, and each death you lost everything unless the person felt your stuff wasnt worth taking which was very rare. Other muds which have different pkill systems are much more tame, and its the system that restricts it. You need to read that article on pkill. Not all people that pkill on legend are idiots, but there are some, but its not the people that are the problem. Pkill has to be regulated, just wait till you do get this mud out of beta and you have a few hundred players and you will see what happens. Ppl will do what the system allows. Its not my job to regulate pkill, I take care of myself only. I haven't done anything stupid your suggesting, causing pkill to be wrong somehow, but yet you condemn us all. I suppose you feel I/we should talk other players into behaving, how naive. Also whether you realize it or not, uh legend is a pkill mud. And will remain one untill you remove pkill. I don't think that is hard to understand, and yet you complain how the players are causing so much trouble. Fix the system and it will take care of that. Your wanting to bury your head in the sand and say the problem is with the players. We want the system changed because there is something wrong with it and its not lack of activity, thats just a by product. I agree I don't see much you can do about anything with the attitude that all of the problems are with the players. This is the perfect example of closemindedness and failure to look at ideas and naysaying that is just sickening As for the last paragraph, geez. Its the same thing all over again, I can't believe you have the gall to say the problem is with the players, yes there may be pkillers with just the attitude you describe, but dont allow them to shape what goes on with pkill this way. These arent the only ppl involved, theres also the normal ppl and the ppl who have yet to play legend. Here you are withholding changing things till pkillers act in a way that satisfies you Sandra. Big mistake. I can't control how others act and thats not my job, that you would even presume to withhold changes till someone pleases you is, well I dont know what to call it. Reprehensible? You know something, im not saying gimme at all, im spending all my time on medievia, im making honest suggestions about what I think would improve this mud, Rufus looked at them honestly and appeared to think them over. I think you need to adjust your attitude, or resign.

From: T-Bone Tuesday, January 12, 09:57AM

Sorry but leaving it up to the players to create games within a game is pretty sad. Pkill needs fixing.

From: Mugwump Tuesday, January 12, 10:34AM

umm, you are wrong adolphus. you say "Having zones is in use now, having a single saferoom, is having one small little zone of no pk." But there isn't any zone on Ledgend that a nonpk cannot enter. If you have pk zones, then only the enabled can use them, or am i misunderstanding the system? I read the article you on pkill you posted, and the only specific suggestion i saw there was being able to enable by choice. Not exactly revolutionary. That and the idea of making an area dangerous to pkill in, which sounds to me like it would just limit pkill to higher level characters who would have less need to be concerned about such an area. I have a pkill alt who is still new to pkill, but I think a lot of what S Sandra said is true. If you are a newbie to the mud, people will be all kinds of helpful to you. In pkill, forget it. You will learn by expe time experience only, and I am not talking just about how to fight effectively, I mean what other players will see as fair and what will make them mad enough to hunt you repeatedly. There is more crossplay and less roleplay in pkill, and really it should be the other way around. Most of what is wrong with pkill that i have seen comes from the players. Of course it is true, that you have to go along with the status quo somewhat to survive. But by and large it will take an effort on the part of the players to change anything. I hope this doesn't come across as saying that pkill is all bad. It is tons of fun, and most of the time people are really civil considering that they are killing each other. My biggest complaint is probably also the inactivity (finding a duel when noone knows who you are seems harder than it ought to be) and the lack of roleplaying.

From: Adolfus Tuesday, January 12, 11:23AM

Well mugwump, it would be really open to how the imms wanted to do it, but no i didn't mean that non pkill players couldn't use a zone. If everyone was made to be pkill enabled, then when they entered these areas they would be open to pkill. If it remained how it is now, where you choose to enable then nonpkillers would be able to enter the pkill zones too. If you look at other muds closely you soon realize that the way pkill is, is determined by what kind of system is in place. Here on legend, the imms talk about wanting to keep pkill separate that its not the main focus of the mud etc, but they keep it so t that you can pkill anywhere, other than the few saferooms, and not only can you pkill but you can loot and multi etc. They want players to regulate themselves. Other muds realize thats silly and put some safeguards on the system. The system here is ruthless, and its only chant vina gam dyn ex of reprisals keeping most ppl in line. But guess wha but guess what, as soon as someone decides they dont care about reprisals they can multi someone and loot and do other nasty things. And the only recourse is for the players to take it upon themselves to retaliate or punish the player. In the most extreme circumstance were someone decides and succeeds in permakilling another char, if the pkill community responds and permakills this char. There isn't even a way to track who this person was. They can try to join any other clan and cant even be asked who they were in the past. The imms are big into players self regulating themselves and they want everyone to rp. I guess this is a lot less work, and if only rp people played here and everyone behaved it would be dandy. But it just isnt the case.

From: LadyAce Tuesday, January 12, 12:17PM

While I agree that there are things that immortals can do to fix whatever is wrong, I think you are selling yourself short if you don't recognize the power that players have in the way this place operates. What makes a MUD different than a video game you pick up at the store? It's not just the player to player interaction -- they've got games that do that too. The main difference, as I see it, is the flexibility that this place allows. Your ideas shape its development, and your choices shape the environment. I'm sort of surprised that players who seem to direct a great deal of thought into this place, consider only the immortals to be agents of change. Sure, we build the mobs and the code. But you help and don't help each other, you jump or don't jump, you help re-eq, multi, level, do quests. You need us, but we need you. We've given you a huge set of paints in all kinds of colors, and set up the canvas on an easel with some pre-defined edges. We can add or remove colors, but the ultimate creation is largely up to you. In the end, the ultimate balance of the code and the areas is on our shoulders. But the balance of the MUD as a whole is shared between players and immortals.

From: Davien Tuesday, January 12, 06:29PM

I think Sandras post made a whole lot more sense than did Adolfus's The bulk of pkillers here think they are a cut above all other characters simply because they chose to take advantage of the pkill feature. This is not true of all of them I know, but you only have to listen to caht for a while to see it. Constant calls of 'if you were enabled I would kill you for that' or 'You're not even brave enough to enable and defend your point of view' make a pretty compelling case of contempt from these wonderful pkill people. Whats more, in many cases I know the people making the claims HAVE pk enabled alts, some of them being quite sucessful in the pk arena. Often it just makes me laugh when people say 'enable and I will kill you', and I have never understood why the pkers point of view is more valid than the non-pk point of view. For those of you who are wondering, I do have a pk alt stashed somewhere. That alt does not get out much. I enjoy fighting duels against other people I know, because people tend to do some evil things that I am VERY glad mobs don't. That side of pkill is great fun and I enjoy it a lot. The reason that alt is not around much though, is that I do not enjoy being jumped overly much. Most pkillers who jump people cannot seem to understand that there are people around who do not want to fight all the time. There are people here who are helping out friends, people who are late for work, on the phone, and all sorts of other things might make them not want to engage in pk. I find people who intrude on such other people simply because 'they enabled, so I can kill em!' remarkable small-minded. If you want to jump me, then make sure you have a darn good RP reason - clanwar, personal grievance or something more substantial than 'I was bored'. I know many of those pk people will immeadiatly read that and say 'Hey, you knew the risks when you signed on and should take care that these things don't happen' but thats where Sandra's comment regarding pkiller attitude comes in, as I can see it. If you can't drop someone a mudmail saying 'If I see you, I will kill you on sight' just so they know what the score is, then I would suggest you aren't really promoting anything. Ohhh regarding the comment, 'I can't do anything about what other people think and how they behave', well thats fairly close-minded as well. We all have an influence here, even if its refusing to help people get those 'hard' items that they need or refusing to praise someone who harasses other players. I'm not suggesting we cross-play or carry our grudges between characters, but we do have a say. Davien Holyoake.

From: Adolfus Tuesday, January 12, 07:34PM

I agree with everything you say Davien, and personally I do try to keep ppl from acting like idiots in pkill, I have ever since I started playing here, but my point is that its had little affect on the situation. Even if a small little change were made so that 90 percent of the mud areas where no pkill and the rest pkill, less would give everyone a choice about whether they want to be jumped or not. Not that anyone couldn't go in these areas, but these areas would be the only places you could be jumped, then droves and droves of people could enable without having to hide all the time. Didn't want to restate everything I said earlier just wanted to say I agreed with you.

From: T-Bone Wednesday, January 13, 03:02AM

Ha, you call us small minded, inconsiderate etc. If you don't want to be jumped while helping friends or the other things mentioned, play your non-clanned and it won't happen. You really expect me to ask first after waiting 10 hours or so for some action? If you want to be left alone playing your clanned for a specific task, YOU ask!

From: Harun Wednesday, January 13, 05:28AM

I agree in principle with everything Dandra says, especially the attitude of some pkenabled considering themselves to be superior to the rest of us. It may be a minority of the pkenabled community, but it surely is a very -loud- minority. However some ground for that attitude -might- have been laid by immortals in too high a degree allowing pkill to dictate decisions that even affect unclanned, often without enough reasons. Now I am not claiming that is always done, or even frequently, but it certainly happens. I can take glowing roots as an example. Increasing of their food value has seriously inconvenienced unclanned create mages solely because of pkiller whining. You can't eat while fighting, roots can't be preserved, they disappear rather quckly, so surely it wasn't as much of a problem that a more moderate increase of their food value wouldn't be enough? Finally, I would like to say that telling Sandra to resign, just because she states her views, is - to put it very, very mildly - amazing. Harun-ar-Rashid

From: Harun Wednesday, January 13, 05:45AM

Oh, and of course I meant Sandra, not Dandra :) Sorry.

From: Fairfax Wednesday, January 13, 06:51AM

Um.. something I was curious about. If we had this CPK and NPK zones.. how will it be handled in terms of mobs/eq? I don't really want to wander into a CPK area if a certain item or quest I want is in that area. However, remove those possiblities, and CPK areas might become really dull. If SL became CPK, for example, most unclanned will stay away from it, expecially those who are not too good at fighting, and the eq price from those areas would soar. Take away the eq from that area, though, and you kill it. How did the other Muds resolve the problem? Just hire pkillers to fetch eq? Curious Fairfax M.B.B.S. (Madras)

From: Adolfus Wednesday, January 13, 01:33PM

Fairfax, thered be a number of ways to do it, if everyone became pkill enabled then everyone would be vulnerable to cpk when they entered these areas, the eq would be worth more then possibly, but it would only be a few areas hopefully, and it would be a risk/reward type thing. Now the more likely scenario would be though that this cpk npk wouldn't affect everyone only those that chose to enable, so unclanned could go into any area still without worrying about being pked.


1999 Topic Index