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Legend & Diversity

1999 Topic Index

Posted by Kaige on 01/14

Ok I feel the need to respond to a couple of recent threads. 1. Comparing two muds to one another, especially muds with different code bases as well as staffs is like comparing apples and oranges. Silly analogy time: Sure, it might benefit the world that the bio-engineers look at both and try to take all the great properties of both fruits and cram them into one super-fruit. But what happens to the people who liked the originals? What if I only like clear juice from my fruit? What if I like my fruit already partitioned into nice wedges when I peel it? I like smooth skinned fruit, but Bubba likes bumpy skinned fruit. What's to guarantee that the properties that made me like this particular fruit will remain in the new fruit? Evolution provides for diversity -- how many different varieties of apples and oranges do we have? Life'd be rather boring if it didn't. Ideas are good but cheap. Incorporating ones that fit with the vision of Legend are great. However, we have limited resources to draw upon to implement everything that's suggested because that involves discussion, design, coding/building/someone's time as well as testing. Which brings me to the next topic. 2. PR's Expansion of the OOC and resultant threads... People wonder why discussions get bogged down and never result in a decision. Appending to unrelated questions with your current pet peeve is more likely to get people annoyed with you than get your concern addressed. Nor does this provide any constructive input on the topic in question. Rudeness in the face of perceived rudeness also doesn't contribute to a fruitful discussion either. So in the above process, guess where most ideas get bogged down. As far as the OOC project taking time away from other much needed tasks, that's why we have four departments working on different aspects of the mud and projects. If you don't remember or know what each department is working toward, please see the post entitled, "Legend Goals" on the welcome board. 3. Thoughts on pkill: The quote "leaving it up to the players to create games within a game is pretty sad. Pkill needs fixing." strikes me personally as rather odd. Pkill by definition is a contest between player characters within the context of the game setting. True, there are parameters that are set on these contests by means of hard coding, but these haven't particularly changed much in 5 years and some people have successfully had a good time with this element of the game. As far as making it easier to remove the pkenabled switch on characters, it has always been our philosophy that doing so should not be as easy as changing your coat. The idea was to have pkillers accountable for their characters actions and to provide a bit of continuity in the pkill scene so that people wouldn't have to guess who the jerk playing today. No, players do not have any official means to track whom plays which character. However, reality far from this case as many of the people that "you'd" want to keep track of laugh at roleplaying and crossplay religiously and make little attempt to conceal their previous identities. Yes, that's a gerneralization. As far as "The imms are big into players self regulating themselves and they want everyone to rp. I guess this is a lot less work, and if only rp people played here and everyone behaved it would be dandy. But it just isnt the case." goes, nope, and we realize that, however we don't force anyone to connect here. Honestly, the immorts have enough work to do without adding babysitting to the list. 4. Difference of Opinions Fact: these will always happen. They are not appropriate grounds for asking for an immortal's resignation. Such hysterics are unwelcome and unconstructive and borderline plain harassment. If you strongly feel that your needs as a gamer are not being met by the new game you got for Christmas for you PC, do you a) keep playing it for years hoping you'll eventually get an upgrade disk in the mail fixing everything you hate about it while sending numerous letters detailing what you hate about it to the developer and asking for the production team to be fired, or b) stop playing and return it or put it away on the shelf? Anyway, I guess my whole point goes back to the idea of diversity and hanging out with people who share like ideals. Again the broad goals for the mud are posted on the welcome board. -Kaige

From: Adolfus Tuesday, January 12, 01:40PM

My point was with a few changes to pkill you wouldn't have to babysit anyone, thats the whole point, the system wants babysitting as it is. Or should I say needs babysitting. I've pkilled here for a long time and I've never been one for multikill or crossplay etc, and while I was gm I get ppl in my clan out of that type stuff also. Also early in my pkill life I chased grendels around who multied and looted enforcing a bit. Ive had little effect on the mud doing this, one person cannot change it, and that was directed towards LA's append above. Fact is I'm playing medievia now, and I have been playing it for about a month or so, but Ive been playing this mud a long time so, im not gonna break all ties with it, and I still do play here somewhat. I think most people that have been putting up ideas, would say that Sandra has been very closeminded, and outright said she would withhold changes in pkill until everyone started acting mature. Thats bs. Ive always acted responsibly while pkilling, Sandra was involved in more multis than I ever was. As far as im concerned we can forget about her post and discuss this rationally. Theres been a lot of people that said there was things wrong with pkill, most notably imms saying they want to yank it out. I guess Sandra has succeeded in dragging this thread into the mud. Maybe the system would not fit into this mud, the whole idea isnt to transfer the whole system over though, the idea is to have a discussion about what things could be transferred that would improve the system. I disagree that ideas are cheap, it almost seems that certain imms resent anyone giving any suggestions. You imms must have a real love/hate relationship with pkill, you want to keep it just the way it is, but want to badger all the little jerks into behaving. The whole discussion was very fine, until Sandra's post in my opinion. Very negative and offensive in my opinion. And I always got along with Sandra fine while we were in the same clan, but I think most would agree that all shes done on the discussion board lately is naysay. I have no problem with Sandra personally, and as soon as she can find it in herself to make openminded posts the sooner we will all be better off.

From: T-Bone Tuesday, January 12, 01:53PM

What I meant by leaving up to players to create games within a game meant a few things, there are just not enough willing participants in pkill these days due directly to how pkill works here. There's only so many times the same few people can fight each other before it becomes predictable and boring yet you feel there's nothing wrong with the system and if we're bored we should work out something for ourselves? Well, that is a possibility but elsewhere you'll find clan systems evolve and improve over time, to a point where everyone wants to participate. Instead we find here animosity between clanned due to xp loss or even for simply running and/or renting, unclanned and clanned don't get along as they should and you put these things down to the players.. Such things can be fixed in the code but you can't reprogram players. You can't stop them from playing while drunk, while in a bad mood or other such things. I've had crap happen in RL and taken it out on people here and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

From: Adolfus Tuesday, January 12, 02:19PM

I also want to add, that while i've always primarily played a pkiller, I hardly ever pkilled anyone. Id much rather see a system where noone was afraid to be pkill enabled A system with safeguards against pkill run amok. Im not one of pkillers begging for more action, but at the same time I think if the system was fixed a bit, more ppl would enable. Fix it so you dont have to babysit, straighten out the crazies. And as Sterling is telling he thinks I overreacted a bit to Sandra's post, thats very possible, possibly probable. But I think her post was a very poor one, and it made me very frustrated. Specially when Rufus was trying so hard to veiw things with an open mind.

From: DeathSpawn Tuesday, January 12, 04:47PM

I would have to agree with Kaige in every aspect of this post. Nothing that goes on here, that isn't deemed illegal in the rules should be monitored by the imms. If people don't RP as much as others why should it be up to the imms to make the change? The change has to be made by the player themselves.. and whining about how this player crossplays or this player multis or this player loots and you don't like it is like screaming for help in a soundproof room. Sure it isn't morally right to loot/multi, but, it isn't and shouldn't be illegal either. Same goes for RP, if a player doesn't RP much, but they have fun killing mobs or whatever.. no- body should care. This is a game.. and games are supposed to be fun.. so just let them do what they do and have fun yourselves and in the meantime. Don't make it hard on the imms who do all of the work to keep Legend running smoothly and to the best of their abilities. For in my opinion, they deserve medals for their hard work and dedication, and just simply a love for Legend which is what keeps everybody here in the first place. You don't see imms complaining about the fact that they make no money working with Legend do you? No. That is because they love the game and have fun with it.. but when you complain consistently about, well, non-important matters. It just take s away from the joy the imms get from the game. I guarantee they didn't put in all of this time on Legend for their health. This has been my thoughts and feelings on this subject and the general feelings and atmosphere of Legend. DeathSpawn-Satan's right hand, angel for the Prince of Darkness.

From: Adolfus Tuesday, January 12, 07:40PM

The flip side to that Deathspawn is that there always other players dying to immort who would be willing to work very hard also, So it should somewhat be veiwed as a priviledge to be an immort and not a task, thats the only time I suggest someone should step down. If they say they have had enuf complain a lot etc. Its not that they necessarily are doing a bad job, but theres always others dying to replace them. Course good help is hard to find and we should appreciate what they do for us. Maybe it should be limited to terms like the senate or something haha. I agree with you also Deathspawn about whats within the rules is all fine and dandy, Im not pointing out any players and complaining about what they do, but rather pointing out what I percieved as flaws in the system were improvements could be made. Pkillers don't need any hand holding, at least not the established ones.

From: Zeppelin Tuesday, January 12, 10:00PM

So many topics I dont know where to start (and still keep it short for T-Bone to read :P). Ok, imo pk could use some tweaking. I would like to see EQ not stay on corpses for pk deaths. The arguement has always been that looting is rp-able. I think we would find that opinion to be in the minority, and that most pk chars who loot end up getting it back ten-fold and multied. For me, I dislike the zones concept, but thats just me and the way I play. Its a good system, and is mirrored in the safe room setup we have now (and in OOC up until the 10 tick timer). But I like being able to chase chars anywhere. On this topic -- would adding maybe 2 more clan halls and clans help pk? I dont know its been said 'not gonna happen' because housing is coming -- ok when is it coming? How long can it take to make 4 rooms and add 12 trans mobs? I really, really like LadyAce's thoughts about pk pts + xp. Please consider this. And, Beam's right lots of chars would immort. Hell, I'll retire my pker today to join the Builder Dept. I have a great idea for a small area in indust. Hmmm, you taking apps? Anyway, I'm losing track of where I was going. Hi Kaige btw. Zep

From: Zeppelin Tuesday, January 12, 10:08PM

Oh yeah -- either all safe rooms should be no-recall or all should be recallable. I personally like the no-recall idea some, but would favor them all being recallable out of IF we could get more clan halls. Zep

From: Adolfus Tuesday, January 12, 10:31PM

Just a short post. I agree Zeus it would suck not being able to chase people anywhere, and I also really like the norecall safe room(s)? I think they help the pkill atmosphere quite a bit just by having an ic place to hang out and be able to go afk, but didn't Rufus mention somewhere they would most likely be ripped out after housing went in? Some if not all? This also is a pretty dramatic change I would think, and I assume it would be to encourage pkill people to buy housing? Hrm we already got clanhalls, on the other hand safe rooms are viewed as a last refuge for rogue players now? I'd like to hear more about if and why they would be removed exactly, what the reasoning would be etc.

From: Zeus Tuesday, January 12, 11:06PM

Are clan halls getting ripped when housing goes in also?

From: Tarn Tuesday, January 12, 11:11PM

Ok, here's my 2 cents worth on this thread. First, I should state I do not play a clanned character, I have never played a clanned character, and at this point do not intend to play a clanned character. On the issue of attitudes between pk and non-pk, yes I have noticed a difference of opinion. Some of my best friends here are pk or have pk alts, so I have nothing against pk-ers or pk in principle. But I do resent it when pk-ers jump up and down about changes (and they do seem to be the most vocal whenever changes are made to skills, hometown abilities, etc), and expect that changes be made because their char is no longer the 'in' char. I resent the attitude I perceive that if you don't pk you are a nobody on this mud. I point out that I perceive this attitude only from a relatively few pkers, not from the majority, but it is still there, IMO. Someone pointed out in this thread that we all come here to have fun. YES They then went on to point out that we don't need babysitting and that if some choose not to RP, but enjoy jumping/looting/multiing, then let them. I think this is the gist of what was said. I wont argue with that opinion but the jump/loot/multi attitude in pk is one of the reasons I think that some players are choosing not to pk, because for some players being jumped/looted/multied is not their idea of fun. We all come here with our own ideas of what we want to do here. I can't say that my idea of playing here is the right one, or that someone else's is wrong, nor does anyone else have the right to say that I am wrong in the way I choose to play my chars. There are several things I don't like here, but overall I enjoy playing here, and will continue to do so, as long as I enjoy it. One of the things I don't like is the line I perceive between pk players and non-pk players. I would love to see an attitude of mutual respect for the different ways we choose to play our characters. Well, I think I gave you more like 200 coins of my opinion ... ------------ Tarn

From: Screwball Wednesday, January 13, 08:26AM

Tarn makes an excelleny point. Nobody forces anyone to roleplay but when the 'Quake' type players jump without reason, they are forcing you to play thier style of game. It would be nice if there were a way to designate that you don't want to be jumped, but I have seen people who jump and then whine about it when the favor is returned, even if the person getting revenge tries to rp it.

From: Adolfus Wednesday, January 13, 02:08PM

Oh, um remembered, that on med anyway, they deal with not being able to chase ppl out of zones, by, putting blood on your hands and if you got blood on your hands you can be attacked anywhere. The blood stays on your hands different amounts of time depending on what you do, the more ppl you kill the blood stays on longer after each kill, with killing someone being the longest blood time. Attacking someone with blood on their hands puts blood on your hands for a shorter time, and being attacked could only possibly put 1 or 2 tick blood time, or possibly none at all. One cannot go ooc while having blood on hands it saves over rent, not sure if you can enter safe rooms while blood is on your hands, but I would you probably shouldn't be able too.

From: Danar Thursday, January 14, 05:49PM

The problem is, although being an immortal carries with it certain perquisites, the responsibilities that come with it are IMHO much more significant. I'm also really impressed with your claim that there are suitable replacements for every imm waiting in the wings. If they really were good enough to replace the imms we have now, they'd apply and get immed. ;P Danar "Hey, I've got an area proposal. Imm me!" Sigrittiano


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