Discussion Index

combat skill questions

1999 Topic Index

Posted by Mariachi on 01/17

I had a couple thoughts: 1- do hitroll and damroll affect fight skills like kick and such? seems like they should, but i don't really know if they do... 2- wouldn't it be nifty if skills could be augmented by eq? for example, wearing steel-toe boots boosts the damage a kick does, or wearing some kind of armbands makes a bash more deadly? Just a thought. if someone could answer that #1 I'd appreciate it, and any thoughts on #2, I especially can't wait for flames for my having suggestions too. ;) Mariachi, who wants his helmet to make headbutts HURT

From: LadyAce Saturday, January 16, 01:47PM

Actually, we have some of the second suggestion in already -- called tools. But the builders haven't put many of them in yet. As for the first suggestion, while it sounds very cool, I'm thinking that damage roll and hitroll may well be overpowered right now, and it would have to go in as part of a larger reform of the roll system to be anything but a big overpowering. -LadyAce

From: Bulk Saturday, January 16, 05:51PM

In my experience hitroll doesn't affect str fighters too much, or rather, it doesn't really work too well against high-dex ppl in most cases, unless they are sitting. But yeah, i think hit and dam is overly abundant -- kinda silly that a 100 str char HAS to use +dam eq to match damage with those wimpy chars who simply invest in a few +dam stuffs (the only reason that you might want high str is to bash or to avoid bash, but it's silly that once you take that risk of getting bashed, str has really nothing to offer aside from damroll -- so much unlike dex or con, with dex giving various bonuses to ac, hitroll, dodge, tumble, parry and con giving bonuses to hps, mvs, susceptibility to elbow, choke, etc ). I mean, there is something wrong imho when any weakling can get +29ish damroll with the +dam gear (and the stats from them) while a 100 str char without any damroll can only attain 23. Perhaps damroll that is given by gear should be halved (i honestly don't see much benefit from hitroll). Bulk

From: Davien Saturday, January 16, 05:58PM

I recall Rufus saying once that hitroll and damroll affect everything when he was asked about them affecting backstab on channels. Either that means I have faulty recall (probably), thats the case (maybe), or things have changed since then and this post is worthless. Make use poultice your own mind, Oooooooh the good old 'up' alias! Davien Holyoake.

From: Adolfus Saturday, January 16, 08:31PM

I disagree about str not giving any benefits. My char i pkill with has 80 or so str, and thats a lot i figure. I use one horn and one brine ring to push damroll up to about 33. Mo was saying the same thing when I was talking to him about tweak eq. At the same time he was saying how much better str fighters where cuz everyone once in a while they did massive damage, therefore had a chance to end a fight in 1 round, he also didnt like the idea of tweak eq with damroll bonuses, because it took away from str fighters. The problem isnt with damroll eq, maybe str should give more of a damroll bonus, but in my opinion saying there shouldn't be any damroll eq for anyone, is just another way of saying str fighters suck please fix them so we can kick everyones butt. The real problem ive found isnt exactly with str weapons, but with any weapon that weighs a whole lot. The new extra heavy con weapon also doesnt hit very often on average. I stick with 80 str, and 100 con and use a heavy brahman, and it lands a consistent average for me. Instead of missing most of the time and then hitting big every once in a while. If somebody with 40 str wants to wear some damroll eq then thats their perogative, a str fighter can wear the same eq and have more damroll. In the current system you do crap damage if you dont have damroll, mages stun ppl and still do 20 or 30 hp a round. If anything you should get more of a damroll bonus for str than it currently gives, but im not sure this is needed. My char has 80 str, and im happy. Especially if its only a few str fighters that think their chars are weak. I guess we need a lot of ppls opinion on this. You know this is a classless system, its not like theres warriors that cant lower their str and raise another stat if they think it doesnt give enough of a benefit. I think the real problem is just that heavy weapons are big and awkward.

From: Mo Saturday, January 16, 09:26PM

There is a reason why str sucks, and why i keep coming back to it despite the fact that it does. chant vina vant dyn ex can do unexpected amount of damage, useful in pk wh where the fight largely depends on running and healing -- it foils some of the ppl to plan on fighting one extra round as opposed to fleeing right then and there, making it a more a psychological weapon than it is a gaming weapon. As far as str sucking, several reasons. 1. damage is reduced in pk -- absolute amount of damage done by chant vina vant dyn ex fighters go down more drastically than the damage d done by other characters -- narrowing the gap of damage done by different char types. This already diminishes the effect of str fighters. 2. damcap -- despite having the damcap relatively high, it is still reachable rather predictably under certain circumstances, namely with rage and stun, or rage and bash by str fighters. this means that str fighters are robbed once again of their damage inducing capability, whereas dex and con fighters never have to worry about damcaps. 3. duration of fights -- thanks to the increase in effective hps due to reduced damage in pk, fights last longer, meaning that the absolute number of times tumble, dodge, parry, or other chance based skill went up. Having all of those things go up means that dex-based chars have more of an edge, even if they are not totally dex and are using it as a side -- but all these things foil str fighters more than most, simply because heavy weaponry don't get as many swings -- thus, when trading blows, chant vina vant dyn ex fighter's damage can be reduced by much more by a s single dodge, parry, or whatnot -- and when tumble kicks in, bash is the worst -- 3 round delay as opposed to 2, again foiling str. All of this negate str, and the only reason you still see str is that with luck, they can be devastating. Thus, it takes just luck to be effective as a str fighter, and for plain fighters, who can have high con and dex (up to 90 or so with hunt.. err, i mean 100/100/90) there is no real reason to choose other stats. Yes, damroll gear is abundant even for str fighters, but such isn't the case when str fighters seek to indulge in stats that are not coming from str -- there aren't rings that give 3 dex and 6 hitroll, or held items that give 5 con and 80 hps etc etc. Mo!

From: Adolfus Saturday, January 16, 09:47PM

I really don't see a problem here. First are you sure only chant vina vant dyn ex fighters can hit the damcap? Second damage has been doh who turned that on. hehe, starting over. You sure only strength fighters are hitting the damcap, be nice for strength fighters im sure if only they did. Second theres been reduction of damage in pk for a while, and it affects anyone with 50 damroll the same as far as I can figure. Anyone with 50 damroll can hit the damcap unless Im missing something, whether they are using a dex con or strength weapon. This is how it should be. Maybe we should have some more decent strength weapons that arent so heavy. I dont think fights are lasting overly long times, so once again get a weapon that parries better? As for the point about the eq I dont understand your point. Having a str ring with damroll helps strength fighters a heck of a lot more than it does dex or con fighters. What would really be stupid is a ring with 3 con 6damroll or 3 dex 6damroll. I specifically made my char to test the system, no spells all fight, no healing, and i know expert arms, swords and fencing. I can easily make either stat 100. Heavy weapons suck no matter what stat they are in! Its as simple as that as far as I can tell, and I dont necessarily think they should be changed either. All these things are the weaknesses for using these heavy weapons, note how some of these things can be gotten past simply by switching weapons. That might not have been very clear, to sum up. Damcap, duration and damage reduction, affect any char with 50damroll equally. The other things you mention affect any char using a 17kg weapon equally. In the old system damroll and hitroll didnt do much of nothing, now they do, just like every other mud, and I think they add a lot to the game. If all these weaknesses of str fighters you mention were removed, they would slaughter everyone.

From: Mo Saturday, January 16, 10:12PM

It is true that heavy weapons get affected equally, but heavy weapons are what best makes use of damrolls, and I have yet to see a good light weight trident -- btw, it does seem that dex weapons, by design, hit more often than slashing or bludgeoning weapons, even with the same amount of hitroll (i've had a 100 100 100 char after all, and i did try) but damcap isn't really reachable by non-str chars in pk. I've had a sniperling with 34 damroll, and even in the numerous fights when he was raged (he did rage a bit) and had the opponent stunned or bashed (via shoot, choke, bs or bash) he hasn't hit ANY damcaps -- quite contrary to str fighters who, in my experience, hit damcap in pk without even having to rage (rare, but happens) with just 35 damroll and having the opponent bashed. With this char, who has 40 damroll or so, i've hit up to 3 damcaps in a single fight, while not hitting any rip to shreds or decimates. What this means is that str fighters have huge oscillation of damage, and that evens out, except that some of our maxes are cut off by the damcap -- i can tell you right now, i have yet to see anyone other than str hit the damcap in pk. And don't be fooled into thinking that a reduction in % is universal to all types of characters -- it definately isnt. It's always absolute numbers that matter, and when taking into account absolute numbers, the gap (and, thanks to the mud rounding down, even in ratios, if you calculate it, you will see that dex and con damage goes up slightly compared to str under a reduction) narrows between the fightertypes. Also, chance of stuff goes up with longer fights -- the only chance based skill in a str fighter's arsenal (positively, that is) is elbow, whereas dex and con have backstab, headbutt, choke, warcry and shoot -- the longer the duration of combat, more likely luck will swing to their favor. Damroll also only applies when you hit the target, making it rather plain and obvious that dex chars who have more chance to hit can make the most of the same amount of damroll -- although their weapons will prohibit from reaching damcap, their average goes up a lot.

From: Urg Sunday, January 17, 01:04AM

ummm from a totally mobkill standpoint I really don't see any problems I got like err 65 damroll or thereabouts and I damcap a whole lot. Though I would like to see mebbe a little more dam bonus with just raw str seeing as you gotta invest a whole lotta rent to get a good damroll. -Urg (realllly tired so I doubt this makes sense)

From: Adolfus Sunday, January 17, 01:47AM

Your right a char that doesnt consistently hit the target will be penalized with a damcap, and damage reduction for pkill. Simple math if you throw out higher values you want your mean rounds to be more consistent. My char is only lvl 39 with 33 damroll, I get a few ripped to shreds with heavy brahman, so I feel with 11k more rent space I could hit caps sometimes. So you saying Strength fighters are underpowered? The way I look at it if I couldnt have damroll eq I couldnt be much of a fighter. Even 100 strength fighters would be pretty wimpy id think.

From: Mo Sunday, January 17, 01:55AM

If damroll was more related to str than eq, than you wouldnt get hurt having 80% str of a str fighter, but you won't do better than a str fighter with 100 str. As it is, damroll is way too independent from str (of the maximum damroll achievable, less than 30% is from strength) whereas others such as hitroll and hps are more closely related to their stats (from max, probably 45% ish and 70%ish respect0 fully). Mo!

From: Adolfus Sunday, January 17, 01:59AM

Well I still say if str fighter used same damroll eq, as much as possible and a sensible lighter weight weapon, they would do more damage than most ppl, and get past some of the issues you raised, but in light of Rufus saying high level mobs are too hard, Id like to see one of those damroll eq slots taken up by a sanc ring.

From: Mo Sunday, January 17, 02:02AM

Ah, but there's a point you keep missing. A non-str can use damroll eq to imitate str, but those options are not available for str fighters. If there were just as many kinds of equipment giving dex and con bonuses (hps, hitroll, acs, better tumble, parry, dodge, etc etc) only then it would be anywhere near fair -- a str fighter with damroll still will have only one aspect that is better, whereas a dex fighter with damroll can augment their weakness (not having damroll) by using damroll gear. In an extreme example, imagine there were enough accessible damroll gear such that everyone could hit the damcap, or that nonstr fighters could hit rip to shreds while str fighters hit the cap.. it's pretty obvious that the extra damroll doesn't matter -- the same is true at this point, where the gap of damage dealt is narrowed to such a point that damroll from str doesn't cover it. The only reason strength fighters still are usable is that bash totally gets rid of a lot of the bonuses a dex fighter has (ability to flee, ability to hit more often, ability to dodge more often) and thus str fighters can try to depend on their bashes not failing. There needs to be a defensive attribute linked to str (such as dex and con, con's defense being stun or simply enduring more), such as reducing the number of attacks the opponent is dealing when they parry. Mo!

From: Adolfus Sunday, January 17, 02:12AM

I see what you mean, but do you feel they are actually underpowered. My char has 80 str cuz I feel 80 is enough and theres not much advantage to having more. I don't like strength weapons, but im a fighter anyway, so I think I deserve to have the high damroll anyway. Of course there is hitroll eq, and it will make you land more hits and help your average, id think. The real question is for mages and other types of chars. Fighters are gonna use what damroll they can, and they should have it available I think. Now if there was good mana eq and hp eq that was really appealing to mages and in the same slot, they might use that. The hp rings in the game are cool, and t-bone did use them. Thats about the only piece of eq fighting that category, with nice rent. Course you got a str weapon with a bit of hp on it right? That help some. Maybe if there was a held item that added up to 50 points of mana and hp in some combination would take these horns out of ppls hands. Id say the fight system is very balanced though.

From: Ma Sunday, January 17, 07:11AM

I still think there should be only one kind of weapons training rather than dex/str/con, it'd allow anyone to use any weapon available as long as they had the str to wield it. You'd then be able to use dex for # of attacks, perc for hitroll and o'course strength for damroll & max weapon damage..

From: Rufus Sunday, January 17, 11:10AM

Okay, sidelight to the discussion but either: A) figure out how to turn aliases off when posting or B) start accepting the fact you'll get warned for posting spell combos on the boards. -Ruf

From: Zeppelin Sunday, January 17, 03:55PM

I agree with almost everything Mo said, except his conclusion (I think I read it right). Yes. Plus Damroll EQ gives a huge boost to non-str chars, ie 2 horns and 2 certain rings will give you +24 whereas 100str only gives you +23? I can live with this, I guess. But there needs to be some balance. A comparable ring for con would be +3con and +70HP same rent, or for mind: +3mind +70mana same rent. However, these items do not exist for any other stat. In fact, items for other stats and hit/hp/mana seem to be pretty pretty much suck or be an absurd rent amount. I guess I'm coming back to my -snicker- favorite subject -- we need more cool EQ. Anyways, strength fighters are not underpowered. I mean maybe, if you have 100 str and <50 in every other and no +damroll EQ. But come on -- whos this @ lev 50? chant vina vant dyn ex fighters have the ability to up any other stat to 1 be a mage/druid/what not to 'augment' the fact that other chars have so much damroll EQ. (oops sorry Rufus) Just saw that -- I would erase and start over but erasing appends seems to be broke. Anyways to sum up -- I agree with Mo that there needs to be some way to even out the fact that every char in the game regardless of type seems to use 1-2 horns and 1-2 +dam rings. Zep


1999 Topic Index