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Posted by Mo on 02/01

I've had it with the idiocy of having worse for wears the only 'decent' if not incredibly overpowering combat related skill. It's pretty silly when i get a wfw on another fighter -- gee whiz, i get to pound that poor guy for 4 rounds with damcaps (that's 356 pts for the mathematically noninclined) and if i get hit by a wfw, i get hit by just as much altho in my case gear tends to get burnt. I don't see any rhyme or reason behind making staggers, para warcs, para bs's, carotids last roughly 1-2 (a little longer on the bs, but even that's roughly 3) while making a wfw almost guaranteed to last at least two and a half, up to 6 (i've had two immolates while wfw'd, that'd be 6 rounds). If ANYTHING, wfw should skill lag the caster during the ENTIRE duration of the stun, and if not, make it such that any attack done to the target aside the normal should instantly wake it. It's stupid to give mages half cost damspells to promote its use, then giving them wfw to simply take advantage of a 1-2 combo... look at it now, i rarely see mages simply using damage spells, only in conjunction with wfws. Also, since there is a check for wfw on 3rd or 2nd circle mage already, let's add a few more checks that makes wfw less likely to other mages, more expensive if cast by a 3rd circle mage (say, additional 35 mana PER ROUND the target spends stunned) etc etc. A lot of this i say since it's possible and feasible to have a bastard 3rd circle mage with 100min/con and tumble, or 100min/dex and 60 con, etc, etc. Maybe wfw bonus should only apply if the caster is eligible for rudh, as well. Mo! -- sick and tired of one casting of a spell ending a fight

From: Adolfus Wednesday, January 27, 02:23AM

I agree that its stupid. I said it was stupid when it first was changed. Quite strongly in fact, and just for the reason you mention, not so much that it lasts a long time as its an nobrainer to cast immoliate to go with it. The max on wfw should be 3 rounds I think, and also I think making all the other stun skills be 2 round max was stupid, especially in conjunction with this wfw change. Also why dumb it down and give a worse for wear message at all, if your gonna give someone the bonus why announce it. Gee you stun this person. Ok there down, it looks like there gonna stay down, but you know what you shouldn't really know, just when there gonna get up. We need a chance to wake early based on highest fightstat. Or just fix it comepletely and make wfw 3 round max and remove the idiot notice.

From: North Wednesday, January 27, 03:34AM

gee, if I could even hit half of what you're talking bout during a stun I'd probably be happy. And if you try stunning an already stunned person, you just lose mana. I got just 2 fight skills, if you want mages about, don't make em suck North

From: Kurik Wednesday, January 27, 09:12AM

I will be always mage, and when they will suck or no, I will be mage. What I want to say? I'm not switching clothes when imms are changing something about skills, spells or pkill system. And with bash and elbow I can't make enough. So I haven't a skill which I can stun you. My last chance is stun spell. Kurik, friend with death.

From: Bryn Wednesday, January 27, 09:25AM

Stun has its drawbacks as well.It's the only stunning skill which has a mana cost, and in addition to having a chance to fail and a chance to be tumbled, its the only stunning skill which has a chance of putting the would-be stunner out cold on the floor while the stunnee gets to marvel at his good fortune and pound away. Besides, surely you all remember the days when a good wfw could last quite a bit more than four rounds. I think considering its costs, stun isn't overpowered. Bryn. And yeah, I'm a mage, so this post is on the selfish side :P

From: Adolfus Wednesday, January 27, 12:23PM

While stun can backlash and costs mana, I say the mana cost is cheap for what you get out of it. If your fighting someone that you should be trying to stun, ie lower mind, its fairly certain that you will get your stun. North its interesting that you mention skills, making stun the way it is effectively takes these skills out of your hands. Given that your opponent has lower mind than you, it would be very unwise to try to do anything but go for wfw and immoliate combo's. Course there arent many with high mind that arent 3rd circle, those that arent third circle with high mind you should be able to do ok with just immoliate. I agree that stun lasting so long isnt all that bad, its just bad in conjunction with immoliate. Of course making wfw last so long helps out the mages with high -str- a lot more than others.

From: Fright Wednesday, January 27, 01:17PM

I am not sure if any changes were made, but when wfw initially was upgraded I got a couple of 4 rounders. Since then (and I have raised my mind as well) I have got 2 round wfw's only. As it is now, I would rather sit thru 3 rounds of the stun and hit, and try to put another chant guh lak vya ex in after than to put in an immolate and give the pers on chance to bash or headbutt or choke me. Fright

From: Mandarb Wednesday, January 27, 02:12PM

I'll tell you what, when you LIVLIHOOD, i.e. anything you rely onto survive here costs 35 mana a piece and if there not there, well, oops, you still lost 35, lets see you handle it the way we do. I think stun when lucky is very powerful. I also think when snipers para backstab me 2 or 3 times a fight, which DOES happen, they are extremely lucky also. Stuff happens, and like it or not, sometimes luck makes something look extremely overpowered. I would be more then willing to do what adolfus says, but only if every damn skill there is costs hp. If you want to headbutt me, fine, but it will cost you 20 hp. Or how about 10 hp and 10 mana? That sounds even better. And how about all these bastard poulticers mo? I personally have rudh without spamming for it, do you have augment without spamming for it? I think augment should be minimum 80 spirit to heal anything, and that heals only like 40 hp, with 100 doing what it does now. I'm sick of people bitching about mages when personally, i'm lucky to win a god damn fight. I run from almost every type of fighter there is because they have some insane advantage over me, like ELBOW, BASH, HEADBUTT. Stop your bitchin and look at the other side for a change. Maybe what you have isn't so bad after all. -Mandarb

From: Adolfus Wednesday, January 27, 04:53PM

Well mandarb it was your complaining about 3rd circle mages being underpowered which got the change in the first place. Every skill can do a lot to win a fight, 2 para backstabs are possible, but there is a tick limit on those. The only limit to wfw is your opponents hp really. Every stun skill can have a big effect, and thats the way it should be. If each stun was just like all the other stuns in length then things would be a lot more balanced. I like making mages loose mana by fleeing, I never mind it when I play a mage, but if Rufus wants to remove that then thats his perogative. Making silly suggestions about making skills cost hp is just that kinda silly. I guess next you will want to be able to immoliate self to add hp to your char. If you have high mind you should have plenty of mana to last a fight. As an illustration of how this is unbalanced, not sure just how relevant it is now, but, Beam and Irony used to duel. Both dex mages with around 550 or so hp, Beam from tara and Irony from Agrabah, we changed our stats around every once in a while, but generally we had the same amount of perc or very close. Irony could stun Beam but generally didn't not sure if it was to conserve mana or what, rarely did he backlash. Think Irony had around 70 or 80 mind to Beam's 60. Since we were both dex our hits landed with weapons came down to perc, you could notice a difference when you raised it. Generally if you had 50 perc youd lad 5 of 9, 70 7 of 9, etc. So everything was extremely balanced, cept he was a real fast typist, but what wasn't balanced was if he could get Beam stunned any period of time at all he would flee and come back and immoliate. That would cause such a deficit when it occured it would end the fight, either with death or making it time to run. Considering stun doubles spell damage Fright Id think you need to reevaluate your tactics. Before It would do 100hp damage, and 200hp when stunned. Is it not like this anymore, or am I remembering incorrectly? Of course most mages probably won't be able to hit for much damage, but of course they have other advantages, and its mainly eq choice anyway. I'd say a third circle mage with decent damroll and hitroll, should be able to really mess some ppl up in this system if not hold their own. And anyway Mandarb you can blind ppl, and thats no small thing. Really wasn't it your bitching about you not having any reason to play your char because 3rd circle sucked so bad, that led to this whole discussion. You if anyone I think has absolutely no right to ask for no bitching.

From: Rufus Wednesday, January 27, 05:24PM

Spells are not calculated as double damage against stunned targets. They get a percentage bonus, but no where even approaching 50% more, let alone double the original damage. -Ruf

From: Zeppelin Wednesday, January 27, 06:30PM

Hmmmm -- I am a mage -- but I am going to throw my 2 cents into toning down wfw a SMALL amount. First, I must agree with Fright that recently I have not had a long (read: 5 or more) worse for wear in a long time. So, that being said, heres my suggestion. If headbutt, choke, shoot, warcry and backstab are indeed capped at 3 rounds (Rufus, any truth to this?) then worse for wears should get the same treatment. Well, regardless I think the odds of a worse for wear (thanks Mo) should be dependant on the DIFFERENCE in mind, instead of just the castor's mind, ie with 90 mind you should have better odds of getting a wfw on a 25 mind 100con/dex/str type than on a char with say 60 mind. That just makes sense all around. Secondly, if we do indeed cap the length of worse for wears at 3 rounds (which is a good idea) can we PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE get rid of the 'resurge' code -- thats right just commment it all out. It is seriously not a good way to balance spells (especially since its just on one spell and blatently attempts to set back cast levels even tho some players work extra hard to get works at low levels). I really think that would balance stun: 3 round cap, make the odds based on mind diff, and REMOVE the resurge. On a side note, if you choose not to remove resurge, please explain why I get more at high mind then low mind? Bad luck? Hmmm, also explain why it has a 2 round delay when actaully failing a stun has < one round and takes the same mana? Thanks, Zep

From: Adolfus Wednesday, January 27, 09:35PM

Didn't everything used to do double damage against stunned opponents? Or was it only skills, or neither? Did these things get changed at some point when fight system was changed? All in all if wfw is limited to 3 rounds that sounds pretty fair, specially if all stun skills have a CHANCE to go that long, not that they would need to very often. The wfw change wouldn't bother me near as much if stun skills had not been capped. Would it really be the right way to fix things say, if dex fighters were underpowered and con fighters overpowered to limit headbutt to one round and raise limit on choke to 6 rounds? I'd think itd be much better to just alter the chances slightly than to throw caps on skills. Good idea zep with more mind equal better chance for longer wfw.

From: Mo Wednesday, January 27, 11:29PM

I don't think anything does double damage on stunned any more, a change i think that came with the damcap change (or round about then) And mandarb, -I- DEPEND on stuns against fighters, and 35 mana cost, however much it may seem to you, is a LOT to me when it means nearly 60-80 pts of healing if i conserve it -- MUCH more than what your 35 mana may mean to you. The fact of the matter is, I still find it worthwhile casting -- as a matter of fact, i still find it a bargain, really -- a chance to wfw, coming from a 2nd circle bare min mage, however slight -- can make quite a huge difference in combat. Not to mention that it can knock out a HUGE chunk of hps in conjunction with immolate (no matter what the bonus is, it's not too hard to do 89 pts with immolate when you add the already high dam to stunned bonus -- neglecting acs, sinks, etc). It is stupid that we move to lesser stuns (a deliberate move, i think, in order to make fights last longer and less dependent on luck) then add something that simply knocks ppl out cold. And ppl keep harping that stuns surge or fail -- every skill does. Backlash? Well duh, it goes both ways, if you backlash on them, they backlash on you, be smart, nobody gets hurt. That's some really basic stuff there. Mo!

From: North Thursday, January 28, 11:41PM

Hmmm, stun isn't a fight skill. stun costs 5 pracs to learn. mages aren't fighters. mages are mages. Half mages are half mages. simple really. When mages complained that the 3 100s were just cleaning up, what was the response? "get better X fight stat so that doesn't happen" Well, maybe all the fighters should get more mind hmmm? And I'm really sick of people saying the stun/immolate combo is too powerful so drop stun. I don't even have immolate, and the next closest thing doesn't work in certain areas. If I hit anyone, they'd probably laugh and say it tickled, then rip me to shreds or something like that. I'm not a fighter, I'm a mage. I get bashed/choked/kicked/elbowed/etc and my mind doesn't protect me from that. Why should your con/str/dex protect you from my stuns? Alright. Flame Away....but please don't immolate -eyeroll- North

From: Shiva Friday, January 29, 07:44AM

I only have a little to say of wfw stuns, being a 50th level mage with 100 mind, and getting maybe 2 wfw stuns outta 10 seems to me pretty limited, especially considering that's even against animals. Now, you are saying even this is too powerful? Come off it. I've had stun since the lowest level i could get it at, somewhere around 6th I believe. I worked hard to get it early, and sacrificed other skills, as someone ear earlier mentioned, getting stun spells takes us mages a lot more practices to learn than the fighter's stun skills. If you don't like it tuff, like North said get a higher mind. Shiva

From: Adolfus Friday, January 29, 10:05AM

Im sure you mages would say or do anything to keep your precious wfw as powerful as possible. I commend you on your rhetoric. It did get an upgrade though so it could be overpowered. With all these mages coming forward saying how they are big wusses maybe the spell could have a wuss check and the wusses get a bonus. Seriously I agree that 3rd circle mages are weaklings that can hardly take care of themselves, thats why I say dont rip out wfw completely, leave it 3 rounds, but not more than 3 rounds. Heck maybe it was a bug that was causing it to go longer than 3, but 2nd circle mages certainly arent wimps, and even most 3rd circle mages have vast spells with which to play and take advantage.

From: Mo Friday, January 29, 09:31PM

Mmmm. No offense, shiva, but we're not discussing mobkill wfw here, just the fact that unlike other para/stun skills in pk, that wfw's aren't capped at the 1-2 rounds but can last up to 5 and stuff. I'm currently hard pressed to beat a char type that will have 100min/con, some 3rd circle spells and tumble. The said type can easily pack a few damroll to do 'decent' damage on hits alone, and their immolate kinda hurts. Not to mention they're not really stunnable, sans para bs, but even that, in my experience as a sniper, doesn't happen as often as a 40dex char jumping a backstab. Again, maybe wfw should check for rudh, have the chance depend on mind diff with the target, and give it 3-4 round lag if the stun wfw's, just like para bs's get extra lag (or, just cap it at wherever it is that other skills are capped -- namely carotid). Mo!

From: Zeppelin Saturday, January 30, 12:03PM

Yeah, i can live with a 3 round cap if the resurge goes away and, mmm maybe 4 rounds but that seems more than the other stuns in pk to me. And I agree with Mo too that getting a wfw should take into account the difference in mind of the two. Yeah, that would be cool.

From: North Monday, February 01, 03:18AM

Well, I was gonna write something sarcastic, but hey, I'm not feeling particularly inspired tonight. I will reiterate that magic is markedly different than skills, and perhaps the cap on para/stun skills in pk, which Mo so relentlessly refers to, shouldn't apply. Also, just because one character type can't beat another is no reason for downgrading the stronger character type into a much weaker character type. Everyone has weaknesses. Moreover, 100 mind/con, some 3rd circle spells and tumble is most definately NOT a 3rd circle mage. They'd either be missing some of the most powerful words, or have negative str/dex. Stuns requiring the RUDH word in order to wfw is an interesting idea, however if you can't keep people happy with a 60 mind base requirement for wfw stun, what in the world makes you think they'd go for an even higher requirement? Maybe I'd be less of an advocate for stun if I had more useful spells at my disposal, however, I seriously doubt I'm making people quake in their boots with my glowing orb of light, or blocking those silver serrated swords with my glowing armor of light. If you'd like to propose wfw only for 3rd circle, I'll support you, but having a 2nd circle mage complain that he can't survive 3rd circle, higher mind stuns, while also saying he can stun/damage the living daylights out of lower mind people won't win my support. Okay, I'm done. Oh, and Adolfus? Please submit my name for the wuss check! I should get 10 round wfw stuns then! North


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