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that spencer post thingie

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Posted by Mo on 02/11

Although I commend the effort and whatnot, I don't think that is the real issue behind the 'us vs. them' thingie. The main fact that annoys me, in general, are imms who simply have an attitude problem when it comes to rectifying problems. I seriously don't enjoy talking to an imm for 2+hrs, then getting a response that basically amounts to "Talk to that imm instead" or "got a problem? appeal." I don't like the fact that imms end up asking me to refer to others when it seems to me they knew they had no final say to begin with in that matte r. Maybe they thought they did, and were simply being helpful, but it doesn't take hours to figure that out. Also, a lot of the times I hear imms referring to correcting something because it was mentioned a lot by players (a certain group, obviously, since some of us never seem to be heard -- just eye candy, perhaps). That's a seriously wrong way of approaching a problem or solving it, considering that's exactly us vs. them. If you hear about something, my advice is finding out what and who brought such concerns, then seeing it for yourself. For example, if somebody complains about sniper characters being too powerful, you have them play a sniper character against somebody who plays the char type they are currently playing. Similar things should be done with areas and whatnot -- if you hear about a mob being too weak, see if that's the case with another char or something -- currently, as a non-stunning mage, xp is just too painful to obtain efficiently... not to mention tons of stunbaits giving a lot more xp in comparison to mobs that may be, say, backstab bait. Went a bit on a tangent here, but the problem between us vs them lies in the fact that we don't see imms spending much time morting. I know it's policy not to have it common knowledge, but I think each imms should have at least one visible character they use to show that they spend time with mort chars as well. Personally, the only imm I see mobkilling on a regular basis is Stile -- rest of them are online and do the things any oldbie would do -- sit back and socialize, not participating in the very things you are responsible to fix. I acknowledge that I am being what I abhor most, generalizing a big part of the playerbase, but that's what I see. Accurate or not, it is what is shown to me, and it is what I have available to judge what 'you' do. I gue spencer's idea could be expanded to include the morting imms did -- maybe add that as another section in the LT, like the dept report. Mo!

From: Sandra Wednesday, February 10, 07:20PM

Just something to add to us playing our mortal characters. I play a mortal daily(except this week when I'm trying to get housing and help files done). I don't always sit around, in fact, I only do that with two characters, my most obvious ones. I've made probably 10 different character types since the new fight system went in, testing and killing quite often. I know i"mnot the only one also. There are quite a few of us that play pretty regularly. Though to avoid getting tells about imm stuff and such, we do keep those alts of ours a secret, and pretty much intend to keep it that way. At least I do. -Sandra

From: Rufus Wednesday, February 10, 10:57PM

I have to admit, I don't play like i used to. I don't have time. Promotions at work, RL that's seemed to taken many nice turns lately... when I do have time to 'sit down and play' I have this overriding feeling of guilt considering there's a bug list about twice as long as most of my posts (grin) waiting for me to get cooking on in both building and coding. But when I do play, I don't sit around and socialize. From a morting perspective, I don't know most of the people around anymore, I don't have the time to devote to RP the time that's required, I play the game for the game itself. Enough of a sob story though. I'd like to devote more time, as it is though, I still maintain approximately 25 to 30 hours worth of work here a week and some of that is playing. A lot of it is testing on a separate mud that can be brought down and taken up at will in order to correct problems that can't be fixed immediately on the main mud. I don't have time to wait for Nuada to repop several times while other people are slaughtering him in order to correct his xp and fighting strategy... it's just not possible and I need to maximize my time. -Ruf

From: Mo Wednesday, February 10, 11:19PM

I'm not accusing anyone of not spending enough time, just not the same kind of time that morts spend here. And I admit, if it was up to me to decide what imms should be doing in their online time, i'd much rather have them tackle bugs and other projects than steal my xp mobs :p But seriously tho, maybe we need another department of imms, or some seriously devoted players (not i, since i need my time to pk :p) who can post their findings on a board and stuff before it takes the form of a suggestion/something that prompts a fix. Most of the problem I have stems from the fact that I don't have any idea where imms get their input from, considering most spend their time doing stuff that gets more priority. Bug list and typo list would be one, to be sure, but I doubt balancing problems make it to that channel. All i see is responses and posts on this board, and it doesn't account for many of the changes we did go through. But in general, this mud is a much happier place for me to be than it was 3 years ago (since it's me making life unpleasant now, not them making my life unpleasant). Mo!

From: LadyAce Thursday, February 11, 08:57AM

You bring up a good point, and I agree with you, Mo -- but let me explain where I think we're at with this... On the one hand, if we don't mention the fact that player comments were a part of a change, it makes it seem like we don't listen. If we say that a change is based on our own observations, people say that we are just making changes to give advantages to our own morts. In reality, we only make changes that we can verify with our own experiences, and we draw on the experiences of other mortal characters to direct our investigations. I'm sorry that my own morts are not more visible, sometimes I wish they were, while other times I'm glad -- I worry that my experiences would be less useful in making accurate determinations aboout how things really operate. I agree we should be more vocal about the methods we use to find problems, but I've been in so many conversations where people said "why was this changed? there was nothing wrong with it." and I list the problem, and people say no one thought it was a problem, and so I mention that many mortals complained about it, and they say we only listen to a few people, and we say that we checked it out with our own mortals and we think that they're right, and we hear again that we changed it for our own good or again only listen to certain people. And this goes around and around and around.... -LadyAce

From: Ea! Thursday, February 11, 10:11AM

Just as a quick side note: when it comes to choosing which bugs get fixed and addressed, I tend to address the ones that are reported via the bug (typo, idea) command before addressing otherones. Why? It's mailed to me each week. Every week I go through all of the code bugs/typos and sort them. I fix what I can quickly and put the rest on the overall coder todo list (assigning a priority). Balance issues I tend to let sit until I've seen a few different players (not characters) report the same issue. Then I deal with it like other bugs/typos. Not to imply that I ignore things on the discussion board -- far from it. Just that there's a well established routine for things reported via the channel. Oh, and for the most part, when people tell me bugs, I report it via the bug command unless it's urgent. -Ea!

From: Brede Thursday, February 11, 11:45AM

Back to discuss Mo's idea a bit. Suppose a group was created of 4 characters, with at least 1 imm alt in it. As a group they could kill mobs that have a questionable trait about them, and report to the building department. I am not suggesting hours and hours of this, I mean getting the 4 people together once a week for an hour or two, killing some thing and discussing the mobs strengths/weaknesses, then reporting it. The reason I suggest an imm alt in the group is to add strength to the groups findings (at least, imms seem to listen to imms more then they listen to other players) Even the builders of areas could get into this, and suggest to the group what mobs/items may be questionable, and the group could then do a test of 3 or 4 kills and see what conclusion they come to. I think that this group could be chosen via applications from morts, not near as elaborate as the imm proposals, and posted on a public board, for the mud public to decide who they wanted to speak for them. Just my 2 cents Brede

From: Adolfus Thursday, February 11, 08:46PM

If you make a log file you can experiment with whatever you want then add your comments in and its like the person was there in the room with you. As long as the log doesn't look fishy then it will be believed, if it does look fishy it can be verified. So making a group to go kill mobs doesn't have much merit in my opinion. As I've said before I think the problem is more of perception, if someone dismisses an idea quickly it doesn't appear they give it much thought, also if it gets no attention at all, ie no appends then it also appears to go unnoticed. If a simple append of, noted we will look into it, or we will discuss it, etc, would make it appear things get more attention and consideration. As it is you see very little of this. I'd rather see any suggestion discussed by imms and them decide if it has merit, rather than a simple dismissing of ideas until it gets mentioned by a bunch of players, as if someone felt strongly about something they could organize their friends to mention it to imms or use the bug or idea commands. But the real problem I feel is with all the coding projects that are going to take a very long time to implement and the lack of coders on the imm staff, at least enough of a lack of coders so that trees aren't going to be finished soon, there just isn't enough resources to consider players ideas much. This is why I think ideas get dismissed, because it just can't be fit in. It's very unfortunate I think, it seems if 3-5 good coders were immorted along with what we got, all these backlogged projects could get finished in 4 or 5 months. Does this post resemble Arkansas?


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