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hitroll vs damroll

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Posted by Zeppelin on 02/24

Please see desc board 37 append 2. Zep

From: Lethargio Tuesday, February 23, 05:34PM

I tried experimenting with with different hitrolls, but it doesn't seem to make that much difference to me. 26 and 53 hit looks almost the same, except that I might get an extra hit once in a while. My suggestion is maybe for hitroll to give extra max hits. Bigger weapons would have to have a higher hitroll to get an extra, and lighter ones maybe could get a ton if they have, say 70. Who knows, maybe then 5kg daggers would be worth having. Leth

From: McDonald Tuesday, February 23, 09:46PM

Well hrm. I think if your a dex fighter you should be happy you got dex and perc etc, and not complain that what you have should do more. What I mean by this is, a dex fighter should grab some damroll eq before they grab more hitroll eq, just cuz if your maxed on hitroll what can you accomplish? Hit them more than 100 percent of the time? Whereas damroll actually adds damage on top. Even if you had the best type of char possible for hitroll, most accurate weapon 100 perc 100 dex, your still gonna get some stuff that hits armor and gets parried or dodged etc. This is how it should be. Now on the other hand, dex type chars or hitroll type chars I should say might not benefit very much from adding some damroll eq, but thats a different story, though it might be what we should be discussing. But Mo was complaining just a short while back, that dex and con chars were getting too much benefit from damroll eq, and str fighters were sucking etc. Course I don't agree with this. Every pure fighter type though, should need more str to do more damage to a small degree, and I think the system reflects that already, maybe too much, but it needs to be that way somewhat. You don't want someone with 20 str damcapping, ever I figure. But by the same token, you don't want your fighters to have to use chant vina vant dyn ex weapons to do good damage. Of course I play a char oops darn triggers, what happened to editing these things? Of course I play a con char, but I think they are the most interesting right now. Str just doesn't appeal to me, weapon wise, because they are all super heavy weapons, and all the heavy weapons suck. Ie they go 1/5 5/5 2/5 4/5 whereas con weapons do mostly 6/9 to 9/9. So lots of times they have real small rounds, and sometimes they damcap, actually they cap a lot, so it evens out I guess. You can't argue that -str- weapons are weak, there just kinda clumsy. Dex on the other hand hrm, dex seems to do ok as far as i can tell they get a few decimates in, which is about all id expect without adding some damroll, but, does damroll really help them? It doesn't seem too like it should. Also theres the thing with backstab and the weapons weight, considering you can do backstabs for 75hp or so with the heavy weapons, this makes the other weapons pretty useless, this needs to be fixed I think. Backstab is basically the only weapon dex ppl have right now, other than non fight skills like blinding, shooting etc. Your not gonna see many dex ppl winning a lot, using kick or choke id think. Con weapons on the other hand, seem to land pretty consistent, except for the super heavy one. My char has 20 hr 30 dr most time when fighting, and from what Mo says it would help to add smore hr, which I been thinking about. But generally id say dex shouldnt be adding hr eq, dr instead, chant vina vant dyn ex using some hr eq, and less dr eq, and con adding as bleah -str- should trade some dr for hr, and con add as much hr as possible without overkill and the rest used for dr. Dex just doesnt seem to benefit from using dr. Example, me with 80 -str- or so rem my dr piece of eq and my dr goes down 7 Ma rems the same piece of eq and his goes down 6 dr. I lower my -str- all the way to 50 and rem it and its still giving me 7 dr. Which means theres a bonus to dr eq depending on your -str- which I think is lame lame lame. Or am I mistaken?

From: Mo Tuesday, February 23, 10:18PM

first off, on the gear that gives you damroll thingie, you are mistaken, it gives the same regardless of how much str you have, just that depending on where your str is before you equip it, it can give one more because it touches the str threshold. As far as hit/dam goes, con/dex benefit much more from damroll because 1) you can hit damcap with as little as 30-34 damroll 2) con gets stun, and dex gets hitroll which makes it easier to hit 3) they can rent more damroll eq since con/dex weapons are, in general, less renty. On the other hand, hitroll seems to benefit str and con a bit more than they do dex -- simply because dex hits often to begin with. Str fighters rarely get decimates on regular rounds even with 40+ damroll, whereas dex fighters with half or 1/4th that damroll can get them (note papercut, who only had 1/2 damroll of an average str char, decimated quite often). In general, the key is in having a decent number in both, instead of maxing one out unless you have a skill/spell that allows you to negate one or the other. Mo!

From: McDonald Tuesday, February 23, 10:31PM

Um, just wanted to say, that your three listed reasons dont really seem like reasons at all to me, why con and dex benefit more. Being able to hit cap with 30 damroll, so what? hows that benefit one type of fighter over another, maybe str fighters should only use 30 dr then, use what rent they got free elsewhere. Everyone chooses with a free mind what eq they choose. Maybe I'm missing your point here. 2/ con gets stun dex gets hitroll um again, so what, str gets bash and str gets damroll, the start of this thread was how hitroll sucks so I don't see how saying how dex gets hitroll really means much. As for -str- types missing their targets, I say you can't complain one bit, its like repeatedly poking oneself in the eye and complaining of pain hehe, drop the heavy weapon and use one that lands more consistently or end up doing damcap / 0 / damcap / 0 etc. Though I agree there probably aren't many good choices for medium weight -str- weapons, this is why I haven't been using them. Heck I could argue the same about con weapons if I used the heavy one, course people would think I had lost my head or something. Arent there any q5 -str- weapons under 11kg? I refuse to believe that -str- weapons miss cuz they are -str- weapons, I say its cuz they are extra heavy, but yes we need more info about weapon types. And point three is much the same as point 2, the -str- weapons are extra renty, but weapon choice is weapon choice, surely theres some lower rent -str- stuff thats q5. The bolg isn't so cheap rent wise and considering its only 1 of the 2 options for dex pkill wise, I wouldn't say dex has that much choice. And yes I do agree that con does have a better weapon rent/choice etc, but then again, -str- has just what every -str- fighter thinks they must have in the serrated, id pay 8k rent for a brahman that was 7dr 7con and -2 spirit, maybe 10k as long as it was 10kg or so. What I meant about damroll not helping dex, was that, you give a dex fighter 20 damroll, which is a decent amount, Ie 40 str and a couple horns maybe? and there is no appreciable affect. Its not factored into backstab to any degree as far as I can tell. Dex suffers from one type of dex fighter getting too much of what they want in my opinion. The sniper, backstab is very dependant on perc and weapon weight, and thats all a dex fighter is good for as far as I can tell, that and shooting. You can forget backstab if you don't have high perc, puny damage. You had some snipers sitting around saying perc dont do nothing, i suck, wah. Now all dex fighters suck, if they dont have perc. Id think id make more sense to lower the perc requirements on shooting type skills, and let the sniper types get smore damroll, than making all dex fighters reliant on perc. Anyway...

From: McDonald Tuesday, February 23, 11:08PM

Oh yah, and I tried making my -str- to be all sorts of different values such as , x1, x9, x6, x4, x being any number it always seemed to give me 7dr, not sure how much he juggled his -str- but I think he did anyway. Guess it just didn't land right. Ok so what -str- do you need for a certain held item to only give 6 dr bonus?

From: Mo Wednesday, February 24, 12:09AM

You would need str less than 30, i think, to give 6dr bonus, simply because after 30 you get bonus every 3 pts or so. As far as str losing out on the deal, is simply because they don't hit as much, not nearly as much as any dex or con, regardless of weaponweight, imho, if you'd check my trident wielding log and ask mages with their sword of fire -- if str hit as well as dex, heck, then why wouldn't the trident be a number one choice, its 1 less maxdam is easily covered by the immolate damage. Dex right now is underpowered in terms of damage, but then again they seriously rock in terms of defense. Tumbling happens quite lots at 100dex, not to mention parry/dodge/block, which allows for dex fighters to incur rounds with only 0-14 damage or so (if they are standing). Problem with str is that it's seriously debilitating in conjunction with a stunning special, since it helps boost their hitroll a bit ( it still gets caught by armor lots). Mo!

From: Adolfus Wednesday, February 24, 08:13PM

Yah I agree with that pretty much, and I have a feeling that is what mcd meant by dex having a penalty against using damroll eq, cuz theres a slight penalty if your -str- is below 30 or whatever, but I guess that isn't a real penalty? I guess the real penalty comes when you say that anyone with under 30 -str- doesn't deserve any damroll at all. Whats up with that, thats why its so hard to make dr do any good with dex chars. Of course changing this would give -str- chars more dr also, but would it really do them proportionately more good? I think there would be diminishing returns, if so handicapping the low -str- ppls would be bad id think.

From: Mo Wednesday, February 24, 08:20PM

If there are diminishing returns, then handicapping low str would be THE idea since that'll actually make it worthwhile to have high str.

From: Adolfus Wednesday, February 24, 08:22PM

Hrm, by diminishing returns I meant that if say hypothetically one did good with 30 dr great with 40, but only slightly better with 50, and if 70 was hard to tell any difference from 50, then thats what I would call diminishing. Hehe ok Im beginning to see what you meant I think, took me writing it out to get it. If there are diminishing returns then having medium damroll would be preferable to maxed damroll. One could go about it with high str, and not much dr eq, or low str and dr eq. The second option isn't available to dex ppl right now much, really weak ones anyway, I mean yah its available but partly goes to waste. Doesn't your last append basically just say, if theres diminishing returns, then fix it by making ppl with more -str- more powerful? Um, there already is a mechanism that makes low -str- less powerful, which we have discussed this thread hehe. If your chant vina vant dyn ex is below 30 or so, you get no damroll for it. Bleah, gonna have to delete that alias. I hear arguements how -str- misses a lot etc, but I haven't really heard many people say -str- fighters were underpowered. Naturally the biggest factor in the diminishing return, would be that you hit the damcap which would mean you was as powerful as anyone is capable of being, hehe.

From: Lethargio Wednesday, February 24, 09:34PM

part of the problem is, I think, that most of the good +damroll items are made for +str. Maybe if you include some items that are +dex and give damroll or something...a certain gold item that exists right now is the only +dam item that isn't made for str...(of course I'm probably wrong) but even then, it gives less than the horn, and has about the same rent -ponder-


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