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too low newbie rent limits

1999 Topic Index

Posted by Jean on 04/17

Even fully praised, the level 1 limit is just 2000, with small incremental increases of 1000 from there on in. i know i can just "get by" with these low limits, but this game is for fun not for "getting by". maybe some people like the challenge? personally, i dont want to spend much time on killing things- to me, its the dullest part of the mud experience- what i like is talking to others and using all the soces, etc.. and spells or skills to impress, for sure :-). i like the way some other muds i've played do it- you can have -any- eq at level 1 and keep it. don't even have rent. and why not? i hear this thing about hoarding.. i don't really understand that though.. what i -do- know though, is that in the past, ive had 12000+ worth of equipment that was generously given to me by nice players when i was level 2- that means i had to drop more then 9000, sniff :-/. A player has told me that if rent limits were raised, the entire balance of the game would be upturned- that mobs would have to be made harder, because one can wear better eq. Well, one can only do so if one has high up friends- in essence, things become more like the real world, in that if you have powerful friends, you can get places fast; if you dont, then it takes longer.

From: Jean Tuesday, April 13, 05:04AM

one last thing i thought i should mention- atleast one person, alyxia, agrees with me that newbie rent limits are too low. another one said that we can get by without more eq, but i want to have fun, not to 'get by'.

From: Wolfram Tuesday, April 13, 07:04AM

Well, on most other muds I've played eq is leevel-limited, and I think that this is much better solution. There are several reasons I can see for low level rent limits.. it makes leveling rewarding, game more challenging etc etc. And 2000 rent is quite a lot when you don't try to get all the nifty stuff all the nifty level 50's have.. at low level you don't NEED it. Of course, it'd be nice to have a demon claw at lev 1 but IMO it'd just make things boring.

From: Sigrid Tuesday, April 13, 07:18AM


From: Fairfax Tuesday, April 13, 07:43AM

True, newbie rent tends to put a damper on your character experience and fun to a certain extent, but if you're not really into killing things, you shouldn't really need more than 2k rent. I any case, if you want to enjoy the true benefits of being level 50, and cast nifty spells, or operate for hours on end, or poultice those 120hp auggies, or summon armies etc.. you have to earn that privelege. I can't imagine a level 2 running about Tara, 100 str, with a devil's trident or something, immolating boggles.. it'd make level 50 rather pointless. Fairfax M.B.B.S. (Madras)

From: Yi Tuesday, April 13, 10:56AM

Basically, -agree Fairfax-. It's more than possible to equip a newbie nicely while staying within rent limits. I've always managed to do it, and I scavenge or buy my own stuff, for the most part. IMHO removing rent limits is a silly idea. If I could fully equip my newbie at level 1, I could easily be at 50 in 2-3 days, at the most. Yi.

From: Duo Tuesday, April 13, 01:26PM

oooh...would be extremely nice if eq was level-limited :) -drool- that way I can finally get the stats I want, and spam like crazy to make my char a multiple fighter-type. switching to and fro. (watches H.S.Y. become a super-spam 2nd create str/con who spams into 100min/spi augmentor from Tara) ^_^

From: Mugwump Tuesday, April 13, 03:45PM

Rent and rent limits work very well they way they are. The only problem I have at low levels is that many 3stat items are harder to get than the average 5 stat item. At low level using items that are lower stats allows you to fill more worn slots, which usually results in better armor. But when's the last time you saw someone with the 3 dex neck item? (And how many of you knew there was a 3dex neck item?) Of course its understandable why get the 3 stat item when you need as much help getting that as the 5 stat? There are lots of really good low- level weapons and equipment that rarely make it into players hands because by the time they can get it, they already have something better.

From: Moolie Tuesday, April 13, 03:58PM

Mugwump raises a good point, one that I would have to agree with. Most of the +3 stuff isn't attainable until level 20 or higher, and by then there is a lot of +5 stuff that is easily attainable. Maybe the +3 stuff could be relocated to mobs in the level 10-20 range.

From: Jean Tuesday, April 13, 04:48PM

on muds that ive played where eq wasnt limited to level, levelling was -still- rewarding, because your spells would get better and your hit points, mana points, etc. would go up. and it was a hell of a lot easier to level up on the first few levels, which i liked a lot :-). i dont see anything particularly challenging about killing mob after mob. the task can become -pretty- repetitive if you ask me. i doubt that almost -any- newbie would be able to get all the nifty stuff who a thats the argument that Radjinn made (on the legend web board). My response was that we shouldnt only be able to get things on a need basis- i mean, this place is for fun too, he :-). how?

From: Jean Tuesday, April 13, 04:55PM

Fairfax writes: woohoo, someone who atleast -partially- agrees with me, he he :-). Technically, i dont even need more then 1k rent. But, as i mentioned with other players, this game isnt just about having what you -need-. Ofcourse. What is in question here is what is needed to earn that privilege. Im arguing that I think that if a higher up level wants to give you some nice eq, one should be allowed to use it and keep it. you really think someone would give a newbie -that- much eq :-p? in any case, how about a compromise- level 1s are given a rent limit of 11k instead of 2. that way, im sure we couldnt be wearing much 50 eq if any and wed still be able to do better then at present. Another thing I thought would be good for level 50s- why not have no rent limit at level 50? i mean, they cant level any more to increase their rent ceiling, the least that could be done for them is that they can have as much eq as they want. Ofcourse, once rent limit is removed another limitation would present itself for them- the amount they can carry. The solution, Id think, would be a place to store their eq, for no fee or a minimal one. Heck, why not extend that privilege to everyone, only the rent limit would be calculated for everyone else :-).

From: Jean Tuesday, April 13, 05:00PM

Yi writes: yeah, but youre an experienced player. Personally, I think itd be fine that that happen- after all, youve almost undoubtedly already have a level 50 character, what does it matter how many others you have, when you can only play one at a time anyway? but as i said with fairfax, id be willing to settle for a compromise- just higher rent limits instead of getting rid of them altogether.

From: Jean Tuesday, April 13, 05:03PM

I don't really understand what Duo was trying to say- did he mean it would be extremely nice if eq was -not- level-limited? because clearly, it's already level limited in a way. i didn't get that stuff about super-spamming either. Clearly he's an experienced player.. someone explain it to me?

From: Jean Tuesday, April 13, 05:06PM

Mugwump writes: clearly not everyone feels that way..

From: Wuss Tuesday, April 13, 05:09PM

Rent limit isn't all that low if you are actually raising the char on your own instead of getting help. I'm not saying getting help is bad or anything, but when solo'ing the mud in terms of eq and xp, the rent is actually more than enough for most levels. In my experience, the only 'trouble' I have is when I walk into areas where I know ppl tend to leave 'usable' eq on the ground just cuz they're lazy :) But seriously, though there are more than a few ways of learning how much stats you have below level 10, in general that only applies for people who've been around, and hardly qualify for the word 'newbie.' Just like we get rid of many indicators on score to obscure the stats one has (not that I like that) we put in restrictions on rent to limit the gap between people who have been around longer and those who are just starting off. Besides which, for any sort of character, this mud is so seriously whacked at the earlier levels that all you need to do is invest one practice at lvl 2 in order to gain xp at a rapid pace. Wuss ps.-- btw, a lvl 1 having 100 prestige itself, and assuming 2k rent seems to prove my point that these people know what they're doing.

From: Yi Tuesday, April 13, 05:17PM

This all ignores the point that even increasing rent limits would seriously imbalance the mud. For example-let's take a char I'm working on now, level 30 str/dex 2nd create. With even 500 more rent free per level I could easily rent my final eq setup. Which would mean having a level 30 char with 30 hit 55 dam, 2nd create, and spam for 60 spi augments. Which would be crazy. As for removing rent limits at level 50, I could take that same character at level 50 and make him 100/100/100 with spam for 2nd create and 100 mind/spi auggies. Plus A hella lot of hit/damroll. Maybe this is only true for experienced players, but throwing the game all out of whack to suit a few inexperienced players who will soon enough be able to rent what they want seems like a really bad idea. Yi Po!

From: Yi Tuesday, April 13, 05:44PM

Oh, and you seemed skeptical that newbies would have access to lvl 50-type eq. I think you underestimate how much folks will help their friends.

From: Jean Tuesday, April 13, 06:18PM

Wuss writes: actually, its when youre raising a char alone that you need good eq. if you want to spend hour after hour xping, yeah.. its just that i dont ;-). see, all that good eq just goes to waste :-). neither do i- whats the big deal if more experienced players can figure things out quicker- -ofcourse- they can, theyve been here a while :-p. again, i dont see why thats necessary. i think you and me have different ideas of a rapid pace- ive known muds where you could level the early levels in an hour or 2 if you had nice eq.. that was the stuff, he he :-). nah. ive only been here a week- im just a quick study :-).

From: Jean Tuesday, April 13, 06:25PM

Yi writes: Im not sure when ill be able to rent what i want- i level -really- slowly, he :-p. the truth is, i seem to like talking much more then levelling, so thats what im doing mainly. But if I did decide to get some xp, Id like it to be quick so I could get back to talking and impressing friends with my snazzy new skills/spells :-). In any case, about that awesome char youd be able to make, i wonder how hed do in Shadow Lands, he he :-). But Im willing to settle for a 9k increase, not a 25k increase- surely that wouldnt give your 50 chars -too- much, now would it (why youd mind having more eq available, i have no idea :-p). Immortals can always make harder places, but itd be nice if us newbies could be able to kill more then, say, mice on the first level (something i just cant do- theyre so -cute- and it says write in their description that they wouldnt harm a thing :-) ).

From: Jean Tuesday, April 13, 06:32PM

Yi writes: true. but then, if a friend wants to give a great gift to his or her friend, i dont see why not.

From: Wuss Tuesday, April 13, 07:19PM

Rapid pace -- first 10 levels, 3-5 hrs next 10 levels, 5-10 hrs next 10 levels, 5-10 hrs next 10 levels, 10-15 hrs next 10 levels, 5-15 hrs Or something like that, it varies, of course, but in general I'd like to think lvlling to 50 under 100 hrs to be fairly rapid. unlock u open u the beginning, there isn't much stuff you can get by yourself, and

From: Wuss Tuesday, April 13, 07:22PM

Got cut off... but basically, in the first few hours you can, in general, rack up more rent than you know what to do with, and if you are not, then it's a matter of picking up the pace in which you gain xp and not a matter of raising the rent limit. Already there are serious problems that is caused by chars not getting any better after a certain level, and if we were to recenter the rent limit such that we gain extra rent more rapidly at lower levels, that problem would be magnified. To raise the rent limit is practical suicide imho in terms of eq balance -- right now, the 50-51k rent ceiling is just right, or slightly on the generous side when considering the char types that are seen out there in the mud. I can, for example, rent a fairly decent fighter outfit with enough rent to spam for 2nd create, and others can easily squeeze meditate spam, augment spam, and surgery spam under the current rent limit. The bottom line, imho, is that rent seems restricting only when you are not gaining xp at a pace comparable to the pace you gain eq. And when gaining xp can be done with such ease at the earlier levels (at higher levels gaining eq gets that much harder since you start to require harder to get eq) then one's spending too much time looking for eq or asking for them instead of gaining xp. Wuss

From: Jean Wednesday, April 14, 11:12AM

Wuss writes: Nods. Especially if youre a newbie and die a few times id warrant :-p. But besides that, even 100hrs seems like an awful lot to me. Not to mention the fact that an extra 9k boost at the beginning isnt going to help that much when youre level 10+ id think, but it could -greatly- help newbies who need to feel like the mud isnt -that- hard- i mean, theres so many commands and concepts to learn at the beginning, making it easy to level at that point is the least one could do.

From: Jean Wednesday, April 14, 11:14AM

Wuss writes: why does it have to be that we have to xp more? if the rent limits were higher, we could spend more time socializing at the beginning, when its most crucial to make friendships and all. Personally, I dont worry too much, because I was given a very generous sum of gold to satiate my thirst and hunger, but many newbies might not be so fortunate. not gaining rent more rapidly- just having a nice, solid 11k to start out with and continuing normally from there. i dont even know what all this spam is. But if the benefits are too good way up there, perhaps -that- could be changed as well. i happen to like getting eq much more then levelling. I dont see why that should be outlawed.

From: Wuss Wednesday, April 14, 04:02PM

The 3-5 hrs is including numerous deaths, actually. A newbie death is a joke -- you can kill a mob in one death and its xps would more than make up your xploss (if you are fighting the right one, that is :p) Whether 100 hrs is a lot or not that much depends on the time you spend online. For some of us like me, that's quite a bit, but not something insurmountable or too far away. As far as the 9k boost not helping etc -- once you try to accomodate equipment and stats as soon as possible, then no limit is high enough. We work with an arbitrary limit to begin with, and this one makes sense (1k per level) not to mention quite enough considering we have prestige that can be gained in order to make room for more rent. Also, it is never "hard" to make experience, but always tedious. Nothing in this mud i would qualify as being difficult, really -- it's either possible, likely, unlikely, or not possible -- and no amount of skill will change much of those outcomes -- luck will. (yeah, yeah, i know a lot of you believe in 'skill,' but there's no such thing as skill, it's all about knowing and not knowing, lag and no lag..) Regarding the point on why we have to make xp more -- then the same applies to getting eq. you can socialize instead of getting eq as well, moderating the pace of that. Of course, you can also socializ WHILE making xp, and it certainly isn't hard to make xp WHILE getting eq. It's just like growing up, you have to eat, drink, and sleep -- can't expect to simply eat and grow up while totally neglecting drink and sleep. Nice solid 11k to begin with? The main problem with that, of course, is with players 'storing' eq on their first level chars. Since the concept involves cheating or crossplaying, it might not have occured to you, but such is life. Imagine you could start out with 11k worth of room in storage. You could easily make a char for a 'friend' and oh, nothing too overtly illegal as storing eq, but say -- you don't mind trading one of his dinky trinkets for something that's a little bit harder to come by... Or you could have his one char give you something, and hand something else valuable (but not the same) to his other char. The fact that you don't understand the level 50 issues is simply because, from what i gather, your lack of experience and knowledge (as a newbie, I don't expect ppl to be thoroughly familiar with every aspect of the mud before they start posting, so don't take offense) in that area. There is quite a bit of a problem involved in raising rent especially in terms of pk, because certain hometowns are much more versatile than others, and are currently BARELY restricted by the Rent ceiling. To change it would mean lowering the rent, and in following your argument, there won't be enough rent at higher levels -- you can never have enough. Nobody said we should outlaw getting eq. It's getting eq via means that are frowned upon, namely xplaying. If you like getting eq, good for you, really. But like I said, you can't just have one thing and not the other -- getting eq won't level you to 50, you'll have to gain xp sometime. And when you do, it's more than likely that you'll think that this ain't as much fun as getting xp, why don't we just allow levels to be gained by getting eq? and so on. The limit atm is arbitrary, but it makes sense and it's solid. Wuss

From: Jean Wednesday, April 14, 05:55PM

Wuss writes: shya right, youd have to be fighting a -pretty- big mob to get, say, 750xp at level 1 :-p. Im not saying that I wont hit 100 hrs. fairly soon- ive already gotten 17, chuckle :-p. what im really trying to convey is that I dont want to spend tons of my time xping- personally, i think a lot less time should be needed to xp up the levels. if youre saying if id want a higher limit that 9k boost, sure. But ill settle for 9k :-). that wouldnt change though,. dont you see? its just that youd start out with a higher arbitrary limit :-). I already took that into account. now the question is, why do we want to make anything in our lives tedious? If that were true, experienced players would take just as long to level as newbies, which -definitely- isnt true :-p. sure. but high up players literally -drop- nice eq items within easy reach- compared to xping, eqing is -not- tedious at all, he :-). For lower levels, its easier to just find a nice dropped eq item, be given one or even -buy- one if some high up player has been generous with his gold :-). the difference being that a 10 year old can carry the most expensive item in the world.. if his dad happens to be the the richest man in the world, he :-). rent limits seems to be an old call to red communism.. get with it people, capitalism is here to stay- all weve got to do is add -socialism- to that capitalism.. taxes and stuff.. hm.. i seem to be suggesting that rent limits not be free.. to be for social taxes say.. he he :-). isnt that fairly easy to catch? in any case, this is one of the many problems that is introduced when you have pking. Without it, I doubt this would be much of a problem- i mean, who cares if a level 50 wants to give another char of his some good eq so he can make another level 50- he/she can only play one of them at a time. As it is, I think that taking the risk is -definitely- better then doing the communist thing.. i was thinking of that -exactly- today, he he :-). and, well, i dont think theres anything wrong with it as long as youre not eq laundering (from a pk enabled char to a non pk enabled char or vice versa). As for that, well, that should be illegal, sure. I dont understand this.. you saying the rent limit for levels is different in different cities? gosh, that sounds like a -swell- idea, chuckle :-). but actually i wouldnt go for that- because having equipment alone hardly makes you any more experienced on a mud, he :-). well, i dont know about -that-, he he he :-). Well, its solid alright.. a solid ceiling.. i just to get a bit closer to the sky, thats all, he :-).

From: Yi Wednesday, April 14, 07:43PM

From: Yi Wednesday, April 14, 07:46PM

Sorry, disconnected. Anyway. Whether the current rent limit is frustrating or not, the fact is, that's the way it's set up. The speed at which people are able to rent "better" eq is very much tied in with how quickly they can level, and for better or worse, the speed at which chars level is a conscious decision on the part of the imms. Or at least that's how I understand it. I know it may be a little hard to grasp as a newbie-believe me, as a newbie if someone had offered me a way to get better eq more quickly or to make leveling easier I would have jumped at it in a second. But the thing is, in balancing the xp scale and the speed at which people level, the imms can't just take into account the folks that are brand new to this mud, they have to take into account the folks that have been around here for a while and have a better idea how to level. -If- I was allowed 11k rent at level one, and -if- I could nag my friends into getting me some eq, as soon as I had that eq I'm pretty sure I could be at level 10 within an hour. Which may be gratifying, but it's contrary to the leveling speed the imms have set. As for the skill issue, I agree with Wuss. It's a fine distinction, but oldbies aren't any more -skillful- than newbies, they simply know more. Look at it this way. An oldbie can't type "kick" any better than a newbie can. -But- an oldbie will know where to learn kick, good things to kick with it, when to try to get in another kick and when to run, things like that. It's really not a skill issue. When you've played here for a while, you'll know where to level your newbies, where to pick up decent newbie eq, what skills you want to learn and when, stuff like that. Yi.

From: Jean Wednesday, April 14, 08:56PM

Yi writes: Nods. But perhaps I can persuade them that its ok if things are speeded up a little, he :-). he :-). But hey, youve already levelled way beyond 10 im sure, why should have to spend so long doing it all over again? Personally, I think that you levelling up quick is the way it should be, since the task is one youve already done before and therefore, I would think, not that interesting. If you know how to fight better or when to feel, those really -are- skills- here, lets look at one of the definitions of skill: skill (a): the ability to use ones knowledge effectively and readily in exeecution or performance. An oldbie certainly does that :-). Nods. Im just saying that since you know what you want and mobs really arent much of a challenge, just a tedious chore, why not the ability to level up faster? and thing about it- if you had better eq, you could go up against tougher mobs- which in turn, would be more challenging, since youd have less hps/skills/spell powers then if you were taking them on at the usual level youd take them on at :-).

From: Brede Saturday, April 17, 01:32AM

Maybe I am out of it here, but I don't see how you can judge the mud and decide all these changes need to be made, in playing 17 hours only. I have racked up over 3000 at least, and I wouldn't presume to suggest changes in the manner you are trying to do it now. Just because you liked some things on other muds doesn't mean that they would work here. Brede

From: Jean Saturday, April 17, 11:52PM

Brede writes: anyone can judge the mud- doesnt matter how long youve been on it. however, some peoples judgements are better then other, no question. I never said they needed to be made. I just thought that my changes might be good- if people thought differently, i welcomed debate.. sometimes, i was even looking for answers- when i asked questions. this goes back to the argument that i think people could be spending their time on things more productive then doing so much xping- such as discussing how things can be changed for the better, say. Or exploring more areas because at, say, level 20, it might not be so dangerous to wander in places where it says this place may be dangerous to you. Not everyone feels the way I do about it- presumably, some people enjoy getting all the xp necessary to get to 50 or beyond. I just know that some of us dont and loosening rent limits, though a complicated thing involving many changes, may be a solution to the problem. if all the required changes were done, i dont see why not. If you find a reason, please let me know.


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