Even fully praised, the level 1 limit is just 2000, with small incremental
increases of 1000 from there on in. i know i can just "get by" with these
low limits, but this game is for fun not for "getting by". maybe some
people like the challenge? personally, i dont want to spend much time on
killing things- to me, its the dullest part of the mud experience- what i
like is talking to others and using all the soces, etc.. and spells or
skills to impress, for sure :-). i like the way some other muds i've
played do it- you can have -any- eq at level 1 and keep it. don't even
have rent. and why not? i hear this thing about hoarding.. i don't really
understand that though.. what i -do- know though, is that in the past,
ive had 12000+ worth of equipment that was generously given to me by nice
players when i was level 2- that means i had to drop more then 9000, sniff
:-/. A player has told me that if rent limits were raised, the entire
balance of the game would be upturned- that mobs would have to be made
harder, because one can wear better eq. Well, one can only do so if one
has high up friends- in essence, things become more like the real world,
in that if you have powerful friends, you can get places fast; if you
dont, then it takes longer.
Tuesday, April 13, 05:04AM
one last thing i thought i should mention- atleast one person, alyxia,
agrees with me that newbie rent limits are too low. another one said that
we can get by without more eq, but i want to have fun, not to 'get by'.
Tuesday, April 13, 07:04AM
Well, on most other muds I've played eq is leevel-limited, and I think
that this is much better solution. There are several reasons I can see
for low level rent limits.. it makes leveling rewarding, game more
challenging etc etc. And 2000 rent is quite a lot when you don't try
to get all the nifty stuff all the nifty level 50's have.. at low level
you don't NEED it. Of course, it'd be nice to have a demon claw at lev 1
but IMO it'd just make things boring.
Tuesday, April 13, 07:18AM
Tuesday, April 13, 07:43AM
True, newbie rent tends to put a damper on your character experience and
fun to a certain extent, but if you're not really into killing things,
you shouldn't really need more than 2k rent. I any case, if you want to
enjoy the true benefits of being level 50, and cast nifty spells, or
operate for hours on end, or poultice those 120hp auggies, or summon
armies etc.. you have to earn that privelege. I can't imagine a level 2
running about Tara, 100 str, with a devil's trident or something,
immolating boggles.. it'd make level 50 rather pointless.
Tuesday, April 13, 10:56AM
Basically, -agree Fairfax-.
It's more than possible to equip a newbie nicely while staying within
rent limits. I've always managed to do it, and I scavenge or buy my
own stuff, for the most part. IMHO removing rent limits is a silly idea.
If I could fully equip my newbie at level 1, I could easily be at 50
in 2-3 days, at the most.
Tuesday, April 13, 01:26PM
oooh...would be extremely nice if eq was level-limited :)
that way I can finally get the stats I want, and spam like crazy
to make my char a multiple fighter-type. switching to and fro.
(watches H.S.Y. become a super-spam 2nd create str/con who spams into
100min/spi augmentor from Tara)
Tuesday, April 13, 03:45PM
Rent and rent limits work very well they way they are. The only
problem I have at low levels is that many 3stat items are harder to get
than the average 5 stat item. At low level using items that are lower
stats allows you to fill more worn slots, which usually results in better
armor. But when's the last time you saw someone with the 3 dex neck
item? (And how many of you knew there was a 3dex neck item?) Of
course its understandable why get the 3 stat item when you need as
much help getting that as the 5 stat? There are lots of really good low-
level weapons and equipment that rarely make it into players hands
because by the time they can get it, they already have something better.
Tuesday, April 13, 03:58PM
Mugwump raises a good point, one that I would have to agree with. Most of
the +3 stuff isn't attainable until level 20 or higher, and by then there
is a lot of +5 stuff that is easily attainable. Maybe the +3 stuff could
be relocated to mobs in the level 10-20 range.
Tuesday, April 13, 04:48PM
on muds that ive played where eq wasnt limited to level, levelling was
-still- rewarding, because your spells would get better and your hit
points, mana points, etc. would go up. and it was a hell of a lot easier
to level up on the first few levels, which i liked a lot :-).
i dont see anything particularly challenging about killing mob after
mob. the task can become -pretty- repetitive if you ask me.
i doubt that almost -any- newbie would be able to get all the nifty stuff
thats the argument that Radjinn made (on the legend web board). My
response was that we shouldnt only be able to get things on a need
basis- i mean, this place is for fun too, he :-).
Tuesday, April 13, 04:55PM
woohoo, someone who atleast -partially- agrees with me, he he :-).
Technically, i dont even need more then 1k rent. But, as i mentioned
with other players, this game isnt just about having what you -need-.
Ofcourse. What is in question here is what is needed to earn that
privilege. Im arguing that I think that if a higher up level wants to
give you some nice eq, one should be allowed to use it and keep it.
you really think someone would give a newbie -that- much eq :-p? in any
case, how about a compromise- level 1s are given a rent limit of 11k
instead of 2. that way, im sure we couldnt be wearing much 50 eq if any
and wed still be able to do better then at present. Another thing I
thought would be good for level 50s- why not have no rent limit at level
50? i mean, they cant level any more to increase their rent ceiling, the
least that could be done for them is that they can have as much eq as
they want. Ofcourse, once rent limit is removed another limitation would
present itself for them- the amount they can carry. The solution, Id
think, would be a place to store their eq, for no fee or a minimal one.
Heck, why not extend that privilege to everyone, only the rent limit
would be calculated for everyone else :-).
Tuesday, April 13, 05:00PM
yeah, but youre an experienced player. Personally, I think itd be fine
that that happen- after all, youve almost undoubtedly already have a
level 50 character, what does it matter how many others you have, when
you can only play one at a time anyway? but as i said with fairfax, id
be willing to settle for a compromise- just higher rent limits instead of
getting rid of them altogether.
Tuesday, April 13, 05:03PM
I don't really understand what Duo was trying to say- did he mean it
would be extremely nice if eq was -not- level-limited? because clearly,
it's already level limited in a way. i didn't get that stuff about
super-spamming either. Clearly he's an experienced player.. someone
explain it to me?
Tuesday, April 13, 05:06PM
clearly not everyone feels that way..
Tuesday, April 13, 05:09PM
Rent limit isn't all that low if you are actually raising the char
on your own instead of getting help.
I'm not saying getting help is bad or anything, but when solo'ing
the mud in terms of eq and xp, the rent is actually more than enough
for most levels. In my experience, the only 'trouble' I have is
when I walk into areas where I know ppl tend to leave 'usable' eq
on the ground just cuz they're lazy :)
But seriously, though there are more than a few ways of learning
how much stats you have below level 10, in general that only applies
for people who've been around, and hardly qualify for the word
'newbie.' Just like we get rid of many indicators on score to
obscure the stats one has (not that I like that) we put in restrictions
on rent to limit the gap between people who have been around longer
and those who are just starting off.
Besides which, for any sort of character, this mud is so seriously
whacked at the earlier levels that all you need to do is invest
one practice at lvl 2 in order to gain xp at a rapid pace.
ps.-- btw, a lvl 1 having 100 prestige itself, and assuming 2k rent
seems to prove my point that these people know what they're doing.
Tuesday, April 13, 05:17PM
This all ignores the point that even increasing rent limits would
seriously imbalance the mud. For example-let's take a char I'm working
on now, level 30 str/dex 2nd create. With even 500 more rent free per
level I could easily rent my final eq setup. Which would mean having
a level 30 char with 30 hit 55 dam, 2nd create, and spam for 60 spi
augments. Which would be crazy. As for removing rent limits at level
50, I could take that same character at level 50 and make him
100/100/100 with spam for 2nd create and 100 mind/spi auggies. Plus
A hella lot of hit/damroll. Maybe this is only true for experienced
players, but throwing the game all out of whack to suit a few
inexperienced players who will soon enough be able to rent what they
want seems like a really bad idea.
Tuesday, April 13, 05:44PM
Oh, and you seemed skeptical that newbies would have access to
lvl 50-type eq. I think you underestimate how much folks will
help their friends.
Tuesday, April 13, 06:18PM
actually, its when youre raising a char alone that you need good eq.
if you want to spend hour after hour xping, yeah.. its just that i dont
see, all that good eq just goes to waste :-).
neither do i- whats the big deal if more experienced players can figure
things out quicker- -ofcourse- they can, theyve been here a while :-p.
again, i dont see why thats necessary.
i think you and me have different ideas of a rapid pace- ive known
muds where you could level the early levels in an hour or 2 if you had
nice eq.. that was the stuff, he he :-).
nah. ive only been here a week- im just a quick study :-).
Tuesday, April 13, 06:25PM
Im not sure when ill be able to rent what i want- i level -really-
slowly, he :-p. the truth is, i seem to like talking much more then
levelling, so thats what im doing mainly. But if I did decide to get
some xp, Id like it to be quick so I could get back to talking and
impressing friends with my snazzy new skills/spells :-). In any case,
about that awesome char youd be able to make, i wonder how hed do in
Shadow Lands, he he :-). But Im willing to settle for a 9k increase, not
a 25k increase- surely that wouldnt give your 50 chars -too- much, now
would it (why youd mind having more eq available, i have no idea :-p).
Immortals can always make harder places, but itd be nice if us newbies
could be able to kill more then, say, mice on the first level (something
i just cant do- theyre so -cute- and it says write in their description
that they wouldnt harm a thing :-) ).
Tuesday, April 13, 06:32PM
true. but then, if a friend wants to give a great gift to his or her
friend, i dont see why not.
Tuesday, April 13, 07:19PM
Rapid pace -- first 10 levels, 3-5 hrs
next 10 levels, 5-10 hrs
next 10 levels, 5-10 hrs
next 10 levels, 10-15 hrs
next 10 levels, 5-15 hrs
Or something like that, it varies, of course, but in general I'd like
to think lvlling to 50 under 100 hrs to be fairly rapid.
open u the beginning, there isn't much stuff you can get by yourself, and
Tuesday, April 13, 07:22PM
Got cut off... but basically, in the first few hours you can, in
general, rack up more rent than you know what to do with, and if you
are not, then it's a matter of picking up the pace in which you gain
xp and not a matter of raising the rent limit. Already there are
serious problems that is caused by chars not getting any better after
a certain level, and if we were to recenter the rent limit such that
we gain extra rent more rapidly at lower levels, that problem would be
magnified. To raise the rent limit is practical suicide imho in terms
of eq balance -- right now, the 50-51k rent ceiling is just right, or
slightly on the generous side when considering the char types that are
seen out there in the mud. I can, for example, rent a fairly decent
fighter outfit with enough rent to spam for 2nd create, and others
can easily squeeze meditate spam, augment spam, and surgery spam under
the current rent limit.
The bottom line, imho, is that rent seems restricting only when you
are not gaining xp at a pace comparable to the pace you gain eq. And when
gaining xp can be done with such ease at the earlier levels (at higher
levels gaining eq gets that much harder since you start to require harder
to get eq) then one's spending too much time looking for eq or asking
for them instead of gaining xp.
Wednesday, April 14, 11:12AM
Nods. Especially if youre a newbie and die a few times id warrant :-p.
But besides that, even 100hrs seems like an awful lot to me. Not to
mention the fact that an extra 9k boost at the beginning isnt going to
help that much when youre level 10+ id think, but it could -greatly-
help newbies who need to feel like the mud isnt -that- hard- i mean,
theres so many commands and concepts to learn at the beginning, making
it easy to level at that point is the least one could do.
Wednesday, April 14, 11:14AM
why does it have to be that we have to xp more? if the rent limits were
higher, we could spend more time socializing at the beginning, when its
most crucial to make friendships and all. Personally, I dont worry too
much, because I was given a very generous sum of gold to satiate my
thirst and hunger, but many newbies might not be so fortunate.
not gaining rent more rapidly- just having a nice, solid 11k to start out
with and continuing normally from there.
i dont even know what all this spam is. But if the benefits are too good
way up there, perhaps -that- could be changed as well.
i happen to like getting eq much more then levelling. I dont see why
that should be outlawed.
Wednesday, April 14, 04:02PM
The 3-5 hrs is including numerous deaths, actually. A newbie death
is a joke -- you can kill a mob in one death and its xps would more
than make up your xploss (if you are fighting the right one, that is :p)
Whether 100 hrs is a lot or not that much depends on the time you
spend online. For some of us like me, that's quite a bit, but not
something insurmountable or too far away. As far as the 9k boost not
helping etc -- once you try to accomodate equipment and stats as soon as
possible, then no limit is high enough. We work with an arbitrary
limit to begin with, and this one makes sense (1k per level) not to
mention quite enough considering we have prestige that can be gained
in order to make room for more rent.
Also, it is never "hard" to make experience, but always tedious.
Nothing in this mud i would qualify as being difficult, really -- it's
either possible, likely, unlikely, or not possible -- and no amount
of skill will change much of those outcomes -- luck will. (yeah, yeah,
i know a lot of you believe in 'skill,' but there's no such thing as
skill, it's all about knowing and not knowing, lag and no lag..)
Regarding the point on why we have to make xp more --
then the same applies to getting eq. you can socialize instead of getting
eq as well, moderating the pace of that. Of course, you can also socializ
WHILE making xp, and it certainly isn't hard to make xp WHILE getting eq.
It's just like growing up, you have to eat, drink, and sleep -- can't
expect to simply eat and grow up while totally neglecting drink and sleep.
Nice solid 11k to begin with? The main problem with that, of course, is
with players 'storing' eq on their first level chars. Since the concept
involves cheating or crossplaying, it might not have occured to you, but
such is life. Imagine you could start out with 11k worth of room in
storage. You could easily make a char for a 'friend' and oh, nothing too
overtly illegal as storing eq, but say -- you don't mind trading one of
his dinky trinkets for something that's a little bit harder to come by...
Or you could have his one char give you something, and hand something
else valuable (but not the same) to his other char.
The fact that you don't understand the level 50 issues is simply because,
from what i gather, your lack of experience and knowledge (as a newbie,
I don't expect ppl to be thoroughly familiar with every aspect of the mud
before they start posting, so don't take offense) in that area. There is
quite a bit of a problem involved in raising rent especially in terms of
pk, because certain hometowns are much more versatile than others, and
are currently BARELY restricted by the Rent ceiling. To change it would
mean lowering the rent, and in following your argument, there won't be
enough rent at higher levels -- you can never have enough.
Nobody said we should outlaw getting eq. It's getting eq via means
that are frowned upon, namely xplaying. If you like getting eq, good
for you, really. But like I said, you can't just have one thing and
not the other -- getting eq won't level you to 50, you'll have to
gain xp sometime. And when you do, it's more than likely that you'll
think that this ain't as much fun as getting xp, why don't we just allow
levels to be gained by getting eq? and so on. The limit atm is
arbitrary, but it makes sense and it's solid.
Wednesday, April 14, 05:55PM
shya right, youd have to be fighting a -pretty- big mob to get, say,
750xp at level 1 :-p.
Im not saying that I wont hit 100 hrs. fairly soon- ive already gotten
17, chuckle :-p. what im really trying to convey is that I dont want to
spend tons of my time xping- personally, i think a lot less time should
be needed to xp up the levels.
if youre saying if id want a higher limit that 9k boost, sure. But ill
settle for 9k :-).
that wouldnt change though,. dont you see? its just that youd start
out with a higher arbitrary limit :-).
I already took that into account.
now the question is, why do we want to make anything in our lives tedious?
If that were true, experienced players would take just as long to level
as newbies, which -definitely- isnt true :-p.
sure. but high up players literally -drop- nice eq items within easy
reach- compared to xping, eqing is -not- tedious at all, he :-).
For lower levels, its easier to just find a nice dropped eq item, be
given one or even -buy- one if some high up player has been
generous with his gold :-).
the difference being that a 10 year old can carry the most expensive
item in the world.. if his dad happens to be the the richest man in the
world, he :-). rent limits seems to be an old call to red communism..
get with it people, capitalism is here to stay- all weve got to do is
add -socialism- to that capitalism.. taxes and stuff.. hm.. i seem to
be suggesting that rent limits not be free.. to be for social taxes say..
he he :-).
isnt that fairly easy to catch? in any case, this is one of the many
problems that is introduced when you have pking. Without it, I doubt
this would be much of a problem- i mean, who cares if a level 50
wants to give another char of his some good eq so he can make
another level 50- he/she can only play one of them at a time. As it is,
I think that taking the risk is -definitely- better then doing
the communist thing..
i was thinking of that -exactly- today, he he :-). and, well, i dont
think theres anything wrong with it as long as youre not eq
laundering (from a pk enabled char to a non pk enabled char or
vice versa). As for that, well, that should be illegal, sure.
I dont understand this.. you saying the rent limit for levels is different
in different cities?
gosh, that sounds like a -swell- idea, chuckle :-). but actually i
wouldnt go for that- because having equipment alone hardly
makes you any more experienced on a mud, he :-).
well, i dont know about -that-, he he he :-).
Well, its solid alright.. a solid ceiling.. i just to get a bit closer
to the sky, thats all, he :-).
Wednesday, April 14, 07:43PM
Wednesday, April 14, 07:46PM
Sorry, disconnected. Anyway.
Whether the current rent limit is frustrating or not, the fact is,
that's the way it's set up. The speed at which people are able
to rent "better" eq is very much tied in with how quickly they
can level, and for better or worse, the speed at which chars level
is a conscious decision on the part of the imms. Or at least that's
how I understand it. I know it may be a little hard to grasp as a
newbie-believe me, as a newbie if someone had offered me a way
to get better eq more quickly or to make leveling easier I would
have jumped at it in a second. But the thing is, in balancing
the xp scale and the speed at which people level, the imms can't
just take into account the folks that are brand new to this mud,
they have to take into account the folks that have been around here
for a while and have a better idea how to level.
-If- I was allowed 11k rent at level one, and -if- I could nag my
friends into getting me some eq, as soon as I had that eq I'm pretty
sure I could be at level 10 within an hour. Which may be gratifying,
but it's contrary to the leveling speed the imms have set.
As for the skill issue, I agree with Wuss. It's a fine distinction,
but oldbies aren't any more -skillful- than newbies, they simply
know more. Look at it this way. An oldbie can't type "kick" any
better than a newbie can. -But- an oldbie will know where to learn
kick, good things to kick with it, when to try to get in another
kick and when to run, things like that. It's really not a skill
issue. When you've played here for a while, you'll know where
to level your newbies, where to pick up decent newbie eq, what
skills you want to learn and when, stuff like that.
Wednesday, April 14, 08:56PM
Nods. But perhaps I can persuade them that its ok if things are
speeded up a little, he :-).
But hey, youve already levelled way beyond 10 im sure, why
should have to spend so long doing it all over again? Personally, I
think that you levelling up quick is the way it should be, since the
task is one youve already done before and therefore, I would think,
not that interesting.
If you know how to fight better or when to feel, those really -are-
skills- here, lets look at one of the definitions of skill:
skill (a): the ability to use ones knowledge effectively and readily in
exeecution or performance. An oldbie certainly does that :-).
Nods. Im just saying that since you know what you want and
mobs really arent much of a challenge, just a tedious chore, why not
the ability to level up faster? and thing about it- if you had better eq,
you could go up against tougher mobs- which in turn, would be more
challenging, since youd have less hps/skills/spell powers then if you
were taking them on at the usual level youd take them on at :-).
Saturday, April 17, 01:32AM
Maybe I am out of it here, but I don't see how you can judge the mud and
decide all these changes need to be made, in playing 17 hours only. I have
racked up over 3000 at least, and I wouldn't presume to suggest changes
in the manner you are trying to do it now. Just because you liked some
things on other muds doesn't mean that they would work here.
Saturday, April 17, 11:52PM
anyone can judge the mud- doesnt matter how long youve been
on it. however, some peoples judgements are better then other,
I never said they needed to be made. I just thought that my
changes might be good- if people thought differently, i welcomed
debate.. sometimes, i was even looking for answers- when i
this goes back to the argument that i think people could be
spending their time on things more productive then doing so much
xping- such as discussing how things can be changed for the
better, say. Or exploring more areas because at, say, level 20, it
might not be so dangerous to wander in places where it says
this place may be dangerous to you. Not everyone feels the
way I do about it- presumably, some people enjoy getting all the
xp necessary to get to 50 or beyond. I just know that some of us
dont and loosening rent limits, though a complicated thing
involving many changes, may be a solution to the problem.
if all the required changes were done, i dont see why not. If you
find a reason, please let me know.