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this & that (mostly re: jean's ideas)

1999 Topic Index

Posted by Sabella on 04/25

Heyya, I have a request - I wish that you would please not quote messages in your responses unless it is extremely important to emphasize the wording used to make your point. Unlike email, where messages may come in willy nilly, the board's are all well organized, and I've generally read the post(s) immediately before yours and don't need to see them again. And can easily read them again, if I need to. That said, I thought maybe I should respond to a couple of other points have brought up. Inventory (and body suits) - I always think of inv as Ptah's pet peeve as he dislikes the 'floating' eq as much as you do :) A solution to it would be great, but I'm not sure the body suit (which seems rather out-of-period, and wouldn't hold a canoe ) is the final solution to this problem. Various things which are intended in skill trees and various ideas on dealing with movement should help the issue. By all means, mention it if you get another idea :). Small eq requirements for using skills: I'm with Wraith in that enjoy this sort of thing and expect we'll see more of it with skill trees as well. I'm not sure carve is the right skill for an extra requirement due to the low usage already as many have pointed out, but there's nothing wrong with the base idea :) Making eq easier to get, making it easier to level, allowing players to rent more etc: I doubt you'll ever see legend really get -easier- to play/level (making it more -interesting- is another question altogether). Legend is a hard mud and is intended to be that way. I realize you are not primarily interested in the 'game aspects' (you're a 'socializer' according to the mud types article - so am i..), but many people are, and we (as immorts) have to consider -all- the players :). Many people feel the game is 'finished' (they've 'achieved' the ultimate goal - these are 'achievers' :) when they reach level 50. Legend's depth and difficulty lead to a higher player retention rate than most muds have. Players leave most muds after 3 to 6 months. They stay on legend for twice that (generally) and sometimes -much- longer. Changing even a small part (increasing rent limits slightly) for example, causes balance issues across the entire mud. Mud's suffer from a 'creeping ease of play disease in any case. That is, new areas are added with harder mobs (the builders are trying to do cool new things remember :) and neat items to allow dealing with the mobs and appropriate reward for the increased difficulty. The eq 'shifts down' (higher level players get it for their friends or to 'be nice' to newbies etc.) and the amount of damage a player can do has (on average) increased. Which in turn means all the mobs need to be upped in difficulty to compensate, which is seldom done for old mobs. On a mud that's been around awhile, you can see this in the ease with which players kill 'older' mobs (even new players) and sometimes in the 'double difficulty' levels of a player who has friends and thus access to eq (can kill things easily) and those who do not (and can't). So the mob cannot be set properly for the mud as a whole - the difficulty level is either right for one group or the other - not both. I could (obviously) go on all day :) Eating/Single Deaths: I've played on muds that take hps if you don't eat and I agree with whoever said it that this makes it almost unplayable. Very few other muds have 'ooc' and this kind of thing also detracts from one's ability to socialize (constant 'you're hungry' msgs that -have- to be dealt with. It's especially difficult for new players. I've also played on muds where if you die - once - you're dead, and feel about the same way about them. Generally speaking, I think more realize means more fun, but there definately IS a place where playability should be emphasized over realism and these two ideas cross that line, imo. Why do we 'level'? Because this is a game :) I prefer muds myself, with rules for combat, and real eq, to mushes or moos which are rp/social oriented. I've considered ways to make a mud without levels (thus lowering the need to 'kill' mobs and removing the need to gain exp), but it's a fine line between that and taking all the gaming aspects out and simply rping (I think it can be done, but it's not easy and would be almost impossible to do on legend at this point - requiring a complete change in the game). There are things, again in skilltrees, meant to emphasize other ways of gaining experience (quests, learning skills, exploring) and there are those options -now- (which are more 'realistic' means of indicating how a person 'learns' than through killing), but we'll never, imo, get away from leveling altogether here. That's certainly more than enough for now :) Sabella

From: Jean Friday, April 23, 05:23PM

Sabella writes: :-). Give it different names for the different eras if you like- the idea is that you have enough pockets to fit stuff in inventory. The whole idea of being able to run around with a canoe sounds rather absurd- perhaps a blow up dingy, but a canoe? I think that, like someone mentioned with apparent dread in his mind, we should just be able to buy them for a cheap price at one port and sell them for a reasonable price on the other side- if we have some generic boats, dont think the buyers would have to have such a lower price then the sellers, since theyd pretty much be guaranteed to be able to sell their boats. cool :-). thanks :-). Well, as I said, if an hp were taken away even every 2 rounds if ic, it might be more attractive. And besides, if so people use the skill already, i dont think itd make much difference- and rpers could feel better about it :-). Besides, it could only be needed for certain hard to skin mobs (like rhinos, alligators, sharks..) Heres the problem with taking so long to level as i see it- people spend too much time levelling and not enough time doing more creative things. One could say, just stay a low level. The disadvantage to this is that one is severely restricted in area one can cover due to aggressive mobs that are too much for unnacompaied newbies. Actually, I am- just not the long amount of time required to level :-p. That would imply that people who dont reach level 50 arent achievers, which I personally find insulting and very untrue. Do you really think thats good? That people see this game as no more then levelling to 50? I agree with the depth, but not with the difficulty. I like the things like automated quests to a certain extent on here. And if I ever achieve a high level character, I might try one of these quests that you immortals do sometimes. However, I yearn for a lot more meaning in why were killing things in the first place and to have types of ideas like i mentioned in the post that I have to repost in my what makes muds.. thread, he :-p. (continued in next append)

From: Jean Friday, April 23, 05:28PM

(continued from last append) Sabella writes: Of all the muds Ive seen, I think this one is the best. The primary factor that I credit this to is the flexible immortals who are pretty dang democratic, considering that the immortals -could- technically stifle nearly any opposition to what immortals do. Ive had the misfortune of being on 2 different (though very closely related) muds that werent so liberally inclined and have suffered the consequences (banned from both). That, in itself, is a story- if anyone is interested in it, they can see why I was banned from the first here: http://www.purerave.com/-shade/tfc/shades_tale.htm The second mud I was on was actually an offshoot of the first, designed, it seems, by people who were disenchanted with the first. I just put in a few notes that id exchanged; i felt that no one wanted to know much of what happened there anyways, and it was depressing besides, so i decided not to write another story on that one. http://www.purerave.com/-shade/rotw/notes/ About your comments on levelling- since I think levelling takes too long now, I think that (a) letting all players get the eq they want could go a certain ways to fixing what i think is problem (b) it takes too long to level and also making the mud more realistic, in that in real life, if a friend wants to give you something, he gives it to you- none of this over rent limit stuff, he :-p. One way of solving this is to have the hunger/thirst thing take longer to kick in. But I think the fact that me, an avowed socializer, is recommending it, might say something to the point that (a) i take the game pretty seriously and (b) its not that hard to get food. Another precaution that could be taken is a kind of grace period- players from, say, levels 1 to 3 get a break- if they get to the starving point, some magical deity fills them up or something :-p. This is one of the few cases where Id agree with you for now, simply because muds are so based on levels- the idea that youd lose all ones levels would certainly make the game more difficulty to have a fun time, like exploring places. Personally, what I think would be -much- better is if, like in real life, it wasnt so easy to die. In many games, there is no such thing as levelling.. I once tried a Tinymush out, but for some reason really didnt get into it- it was just too complicated and the players were -way- too much into their little groups and hierarchical structures it seemed. They also werent as responsive as people are on here. But Ill tell you a little secret- this discussion board to me is a godsend- I -love- it :-). It seems to me that I wouldnt care if this was a Mush, Moo or any other M-- as long as it had such lively discussion, Id be happily discussing my ideas regardless of the rest, he :-). Yeah, it would be a pretty radical change alright. And like some high up players seemed to suggest, high levellers might feel like all the time they spent levelling was for naught. Personally, I think that basing ones worth on ones level is very detrimental- it can lead one to think that killing makes one better, for instance. I can understand that no one would like too radical changes, but a starting change, atleast, would be to reduce the amount of mobs one has to kill on average to level. Personally, I think that coming up with ideas on how to make this a more interesting mud and being able to implement those ideas should be something thats much more appraised then it may be at present. Along these lines, I think that there should be more coders, atleast- As for people with ideas, well, clearly theirs some :-), but if this ooc board was made easier to use, there might be many more, so I think making this board easier to use and with more help on doing things (like suggestions I got from Kaige, Wraith and Seth) might do wonders. Finally, I think that this mud is more then just an escape from reality- I think it can be a large part of our dreams.. our fantasies.. our hopes. As Ive mentioned in my latest post in the what makes a mud.. thread, I feel like the online world will become ever more real in the coming years- many people are frightened by this, but personally have very little fear- in fact, Im quite happy; because on here, information has been freer then its ever been before. And while its true that information can harm, I think its far more noteworthy that information is the cure to ignorance- and curing -that- may well cure many of the problems of the 20th century now ending (dont worry, Im sure well cook up new problems for the 21st :-p). he :-). thanks Sabella.

From: Jean Sunday, April 25, 02:09PM

If I thought so, I wouldn't be writing here.


1999 Topic Index