Posted by Jean on 04/27
When I was a newbie on here for the first time and asked for help when
I got on, one person asked what i needed help on. When I said
everything, no one responded to me at all. Today, a newbie just got on
and asked for help- he was in a strange town and might not have known
the first thing of mudding besides how to chat. I personally would have
helped him, only i have no idea how to get to tudor, and at level 3,
i don't think it would have been a wise journey anyways. So i asked
others to help. The only person who responded was Cyanide and she gave
the very convenient excuse that people should "learn" by themselves.
Is this how we teach our young ones on here? By leaving them all alone?
Personally, I think this is shameful.
On the issue of helping people, i've seen other players lost
or caught in traps and no one seemed interested in helping. I managed
to get help for one of the people i saw once, but I couldn't find
-anyone- to help the second- it was lagged, so I had to leave that time.
Personally, I think that people should be just a -little- more
humanitarian with the little ones of this mud.
Friday, April 23, 08:07PM
I don't speak for everyone, nor even the majority, but when I
say "help" I take care to distinguish it from spoon-feeding.
There are things I understand to be less-than-straight-forward,
and with some of those I will offer help -- at my leisure.
But when somebody comes up to me asking an answer for everything
without giving stuff a shot -- for eq, for xp, for quests, etc,
I am more than likely to just snicker. The way I see it, this
is a game where a good deal is vested on people learning things
on their own, and more importantly, keeping certain knowledges
to themselves for various reasons. I personally share all my
secrets with a close circle of friends, and only disclose them
to others when I see it serving another purpose. (no, they ain't
Back when I was a newbie, I created newbies in all the hometowns
simply because I didn't know how to get from one place to another,
while wanting to see as much of the mud as possible. I've had
chars who didn't leave their hometown until level 15, simply
because I didn't know the mud -- and all the gear I got was from
shops... I'm not saying this is the way to go, nor that it was
a very smart thing to do, but since that has been my experience
(and judging from what I know of the mud now, a worthwhile one)
I won't be eager nor approving of efforts at 'ruining' such an
experience, nor people who wish to circumspect it. Thus, I won't
give the kind of 'help' that people seem to ask for.
So before anyone starts whining about people being not helpful,
you should understand that not everyone sees that as 'helping' but
simply ruining the experience.
Friday, April 23, 08:14PM
Also, the LegendMUD website, and a few others related to Legend,
offer pages and pages of help -- mostly because nobody likes to
repeat the same exact words everytime a newbie is created. Moreover,
if anything, I would refrain from using channels to give directions
or other help to a newbie -- some newbies don't appreciate being told
and have stuff broadcast that they wished to find out on their own,
or have invested some time figuring out for themselves. You can
always use tells, since you will only be answering one newbie at a time.
Friday, April 23, 10:21PM
Ill go into the only one I can think of offhand- quets- supposedly
theyre supposed to be done alone and there is a certain amount
of code to assure that some of it -is- done without someone
basically doing the quest for you. Personally, Id rather have
quests that vary every time one does it so that its not so easy
for someone to help one out- or to do it again with a new
character of ones own. But on the instances that I was referring
to, quests didnt seem to be the issue at all- in the case of
Infested (not a char of mine, btw), hed just gotten on this mud
and could -really- have used a helping hand id think. He told me
thanks for trying anyways, but I felt down that I couldnt do
something. Personally, the reason I think that so many people
are on muds is -certainly- not for things like xping- if youd like to
kill things, there are games on nintendo, etc., that I think are as
sophisticated if not more and are a -lot- better on the graphical
side.. not to mention the maneuvarability :-p. I come here
because theres other people here to talk to and to help one
learn the neat things you can do on a mud. For this reason, I
think that, atleast from a newbies point of view, the best thing
would be to have someone help him/her. Now, from the
experienced players point of view- Ive played on various muds
and have racked up over 1000 hours im sure. The point isnt
whether someone on here has racked up more- i know they
have. The point is that, in terms of muds as a whole, im fairly
well experienced. I can also tell you that, regardless of how high
or low my level has been on a mud, Ive -always- tried to help
newbies if I wasnt in the middle of an xp run or a pk hunt
(-very- rare that i was on one of those, but anyways :-p). Ive
talked to an experienced player on here thats played for around
3 years and he told me, perhaps somewhat in jest, that he
believes that high level players have stopped helping newbies
as much, because theyve become greedy and lazy. Since I
have no knowledge of how things were before, I can only repeat
what he told me and that I, atleast, would help these poor
newbies when i see them struggling on here just to figure out
where to go (or not to go) or wandering about lost without a light
or trapped somewhere.
Well, there you go. The only secrets I only share with my closest
circle of friends are the ones that could hurt me (and -have- hurt
me) if I told them to people who arent necessarily trustable (its
hard to figure out whos trustable, so im sure ill keep on getting
hurt from time to time, but ill live).
Well, I must admit you have more interest in exploring then I do in
that respect- I -have- left my hometown of Tara after mapping
out all of Tara, but only because it was implied that it was safe
to go to the swamp which was south of the tara gate- since it
was due south, it wasnt hard to find :-p. I quickly mapped out
the swamp and soon came upon an exit from the swamp that
didnt lead back to the crossroads- but it was marked with the
word danger or dangerous, so I marked it as such and didnt
explore further down. Upon returning to the crossroads, I decided
to map out all the territories to the east and west of it until I hit
upon similar danger entries to areas. I did so and have now
mapped out all the area around Tara thats safe for newbies
(even a little territory that -wasnt- all that safe for newbies-
apparently, not all entries to areas are marked with the danger
label :-p.). I know I could make another character and explore
other towns and their safe surroundings, but personally, I
mapping out terrains isnt what I come here for- talking to people
is, so thats what I try to do.
Can you tell me what advantages youve garnered from learning
these things alone or is that one of your secrets?
If youre really serious about your beliefs this time around, youll
answer this post and all its points. Otherwise, I question your
seriousness on this matter. Another thing i find somewhat
hypocritical of you is your attack on my quoting- presumably, it
adds some tedium to the process of reading. The tedium involved
is -nothing- like the tedium involved in xping for hours on end and
yet you extoll xping as a virtue and my posts talking of topics
that still havent been resolved as a burden? Please.
Friday, April 23, 10:23PM
Ive looked on the web page- It has a fair amount on muds in
general, but precious little when it comes to things related to
helping newbies on legend mud specifically- some history on the
various towns, a small faq; hardly what id call pages and
Ive yet to meet one of these people- perhaps you can point one
out to me one of these days. In any case, this isnt an issue
about how one tells newbies info- it can easily be done on tells if
some newbies really -would- mind hearing things on chat lines.
The point Im trying to make is that newbies who -do- want help
with what places are safe in their hometown, say (they cant be
expected to know that Taras safe through and through, for
instance) or are trying to find their way home because they dont
have a light and they went out exploring a little too far.
Saturday, April 24, 12:45AM
Hmm, I think I asked for help once as a newbie, when I was stuck
without a boat. When I discovered the vampire I paid Mercenary
for help with corpse retrieval. I can't imagine what newbies
REALLY need help with unless they just don't think to read the
Saturday, April 24, 01:30AM
when ppl ask you to stop quoting, comply.
Saturday, April 24, 01:31AM
Look in your inventory. Hometowns come with a map. Would've saved
you the trouble of mapping Tara if you had just looked.
Saturday, April 24, 01:26AM
i guess this is all in some helpfile somewhere..
they might think of it. but personally, i think they'd
rather talk to a live human being who can give them
answers a lot faster then that behemoth of a help file
system- i mean, i've been on muds for quite some time
now and i'm -still- daunted by the huge mud help file
systems. Now imagine a person who's never played a mud
before. Personally, I think that the main attraction to
any mud, moo, etc., is the fact that there are other
people to talk to. I also think from personal experience
that the time you need to talk to someone the most is
when you're just starting out- what an easier way for
this communication to take place then under the guise
of finding things out- even more so since one actually
-is- finding things out, in a much faster way then one
would through the help file system (unless you're a real
pro maybe) and at the same time, you're establishing a
relationship with someone on the mud.
Saturday, April 24, 01:32AM
The most important thing you learn by spending hours tackling
problem on your own is that these things can be solved by
yourself (most of the time) and what it taught me is not to
respect those who don't do this themselves.
As far as 'helping' goes, where in it didn't I make it clear that
I didn't consider that as a help? What that generates are masses
of idiotic players who can't hold their own when push comes to shove.
This is far more apparent in PK than anywhere else -- you have people
who make do with almost any char, and then you have people who can't
do squat even after given the best possible char, or a highly
competitive model under the current fad.
Yes, given. That's what happens if you rely on others to tell you
what works and what doesn't. I've personally found not many of the
strategies people talk about work at all -- one, everyone else probably
knows it, and two, my link, their link, my comp, their comp, my client,
their client, my typing speed, their typing speed, my reading speed,
their reading speed, my trust in myself, their trust in theirself, my
common sense, their common sense... all of that differs. You know
what happens when something you suggested doesn't work out cuz ppl
are simply too dumb or hail from a totally different way of thinking
than you? They fail miserably, and either hate you for it or end up
having the lowest self esteem possible. Either way, it isn't worth
I could tell you, with so many words, that everything is easy on this
mud, nothing even beyond reason -- eq, xp, anything and everything. And
I have the chars to prove it -- I have had enough clanned chars that
toiled what some consider not-long-enough and unclanned. I've had eq
setup ranging from the oh-so-boring to what-the-hell-were-you-thinking,
and i tell you now that nothing on this mud is "hard." Merely possible
or not possible. But it'd be falling to deaf ears, or worse, ears that
lack the brain with experience enough to understand any of it.
Level to 45. Bringing a char up to a level is more than just xp, it's
learning how the character works, when you can rely on certain skills
with that character, what chances that character can take while others
can't, what mobs are easier for that char while it shouldn't be logically,
what skills work, despite what others have told you, learning to juggle
equipment, and just putting in the hours. I don't know how it is with you
equipment, and just putting in the hours.
There's no shortcut to life, and if you are so smart and understand the
system, first thing you should show is that you can be where we are. And
until I see your char at lvl 45, at least, you've only shown me that you
have better command of grammar than flyingfox or kurik.. oh wait, you don'
know these folks.
Saturday, April 24, 01:49AM
Here, I think, is where -you- need a lesson Wuss. I gave my
reasons as to why I quote in my my quoting thread. Ive now
made several points that point to your own hypocrisy on the
issue of quoting, but since you apprently dont read my quoted
messages, youll never know and ill simply continue to lose
respect for you.
Look in your inventory. Hometowns come with a map. Would've
saved you the trouble of mapping Tara if you had just looked.>
For some reason, it wasnt in my inventory when i started
becoming interested in mapping Tara. Perhaps its because that
happened when my hometown with Jean was still Agrabah (I
subsequently recreated). Whatever the case, I quickly learned
that you could buy a map cheaply and did so. However, I -still-
found myself mapping things out because although the map
was fairly good, it lacked a little bit (for instance, Donnegals
chamber and a few other miscellaneous room names of lesser
note). It also isnt very clear on how many rooms there are in
between the pig sty, say, and the tannery, going the westward
route. I found all that out when i mapped it manually.
Saturday, April 24, 02:34AM
The point is, if you're stuck, unable to get your corpse, stuck
in the bog or whatever, say so and be specific. If you just say
can someone help me please, you're likely to be ignored as most
would suspect the person's after help levelling or something
of that nature.
Saturday, April 24, 02:43AM
Sure. But its solved faster if you work with someone else on it-
solved even faster if you work with someone whos already
solved the problem :-p.
This I dont understand. Why not? Its just knowledge- -skill- is
what only time can teach.
Didnt consider -what- as help? Perhaps if youd quoted, id
Since im not sure what youre referring to, I cant properly
respond to this..
This isnt something im not that concerned about, since, as you
know, I dont like the whole concept of pking.
These things we call luck, happenstance and skill.
Ive helped out many newbies and never had this problem. Then
again, Ive never trained anyone on how to pk; nor would i want
Sure, its easy. Xping is just tedious. Davien was telling me how
one could level from 49 to 50 in just 15 or 16 Barneys. But
Barneys are pretty dangerous, it seems. If one didnt want to run
such a high risk of dying, one would probably have to kill, say,
75 mobs to get that last level? Over and over and over.. I just
dont see the point in so many.
Just tedious, as one struggles to get to one more level just so
one can use some better eq and get a few more
(base insults omitted)
Perhaps one day. In the meantime, Im hoping Ill have lots more
discussions on here, because this is -certainly- more interesting
Ive said it before and Ill say it again- rent limits are -so-
unrealistic. And ofcourse id like it changed and have made my
arguments which id like to add, you -still- havent responded to
(yeah, i know your excuse- i havent levelled enough- maybe
youre just afraid to ponder the possibility that you spent too
much time doing things like levelling).
who are those people? mobs? now that ive started thinking of
mobs, let me put it to you this way- what challenge is it, really ,
to defeat a mob? theyre given tons of extra hps, damage, etc.,
simply because of the fact that theyre so incredibly -dumb-. You
want to spend so much time with what amounts to idiots, be my
guest. Me, I avoid this until theres either no players who i know i
can readily talk to or im in too much pain to interact with creatures
of a more intelligent calibur then mobs.
Saturday, April 24, 02:51AM
If youre a newbie, in desperation, you might just say youre
stuck. In that case, Id ask where they were stuck- this works
wonders, because by the ending of this, all 3 cases that I
recently encountered said where they were- its just that no one
listening to chat seemed to want to be bothered in helping. Itd be
nice to know the percentage of users who usually have chat on,
but i -know- there were a few who could have done it..
Cyanide, in the case of Infested, say.
Personally, Id simply ask what theyd like help on.
Saturday, April 24, 03:52AM
Well, just don't forget that most will be busy with something.
Saturday, April 24, 03:51AM
I don't see your beef Jean. You want someone to level you don't you?
My old motto was always, I won't play the game for you.
I think you need to quit worrying about dying or something, go explore.
If you really don't like xping you can stay at whatever level you are
or find a mush or a moo. Here we place a value on being able to level.
So much so that, when one is a newbie one generally whines and whines
till someone finally helps them level. Which is why we generally ignore
ppl begging for help. If you need help ask for it. If your asking to
be leveled expect to be ignored quite a bit. If your not specific about
what kind of help you need then expect for ppl to think you want to be
leveled. Its just sort of the way it is, not sure if its a holdover
from when it was hard to level or not, but you know what its not hard
to level anymore. Sorta tedious yes, hard no.
You are the one that says levels aren't important, so if there not so
important stay at your level. If you change your mind, level up, pretty
simple. If its just too tedious too level for you, then I think your
in a pickle, cuz writing boards don't give xp hehe.
I don't really do xp anymore either, just when I level up to pk level,
but I do answer questions and give quest hints, which I think most ppl
do if they can. You just need to figure out who these ppl are and ask
them. The most fun way to learn the mud is to play it though. If
you really really don't like xping though, then id suggest a mush, cuz
um most times ppl here are xping.
Hrm lets see, if you don't want to kill 75 of so and so mobs to level
from 49 to 50, just what is it you want to do? You gonna do like pure Rp?
Oh also, note how I state what your point in in what I'm saying without
quoting? 5 lines to quote a simple point is entirely too much, I mean
geez the board is threaded, if your replying then I just read what you
quoted. Noone wants to read what they just read again, or even to have
to watch it fly past on the screen and have to page back up.
Also I don't see what you want rent limits raised for, or why you want
to level up for either, for that matter if you really don't want to
kill mobs, and if you just want to Rp and not xp you can do that with
no eq at any level. As far as being able to go places, youll never be
able to go anywhere till you learn the mud, not with an automapper
But Hey, if you really want to be a higher level I'm sure we can
work it out so you get a high lvl char. Sure someone has an extra one
lying around. Though you might be subjected to quite a bit of
snickering, cuz youll have no idea whats going on.
Saturday, April 24, 05:24AM
I'd think it's pretty unfair to condemn the oldbies for not helping
newbies on this mud. True, many a time, a call goes unanswered for a
while, but please bear in mind that the other players are here on
the MUD for their own agendas, pleasure, edification, kicks etc.. much
the same as everyone else. To ask for help is one this, to expect a
policeman to come running everytime you get in trouble is, how should I
put it, rather unreasonable. When people call for help I normall check
if they're nearby, and if they're not I find myself normally not too
inclined to run all over mud to meet these people, mainly because I'm
not on the MUD to babysit newbies, I'm here to develop my own roleplay,
character, and relationships. True, it's cold and cruel that sometimes
people get ignored, but it happens in the real world as well, and while
there are some of us who are nice enough and courteous enough to help
out if we can, most of the time we're busy. And sometimes we can't
really help.. I mean how does a surgeon help someone in the bog without
making a detour to get TWO sets of a certain recalling item? If a
newbie nearby makes a plea on chat I'd quite happily help if I'm not
busy, and if he shows up on hunt... otherwise it's too inconvenient.
This may surprise newbies, but oldbies are here to enjoy themselves and
relax as well, and not play tutor. Even the PR immorts acknowledge that
they can only request a player to help a newbie, and not compel them to.
This is one reason I think the New Player Helpers (or what used to be
called Newbie Helpers - the very change in name suggests reasons) seems
to be rather quiet. They have their lives, and it is unreasonable to
expect them to babysit everyone.
One more thing - when newbies ask for help on chat, some do it nicer
than others. "So much for Legend being the friendliest MUD" and so on is
NOT likely to get anyone to help you.. not even the immorts. That's a
threat, and we, being humans RL who come here to relax, do not like that
at all, nosiree.
Just my opinion
Saturday, April 24, 09:33AM
I'm not on all the time, and so I may miss a lost newbie now and again,
but I've (in general) seen a good level of response to newbies. I
haven't seen as much "running to the rescue" as much as chat and
tell -based explanations/advice/etc.
Several other players have mentioned this, but just to reinforce --
sometimes the "newbies" you see asking for help are not really newbies
at all. Sure, we should all be helpful in general, I think that's a
healthy attitude. But when someone, for example, is berating the public
because we didn't come "help a newbie" when what they really wanted
was "a guide to (spellword)" before they levelled so they could get
a spiffy cast level...well, that's not as likely to draw the same
response as a specific "rescue" type request. Same with demands for
eq. So while I agree that we shouldn't harden our hearts against the
new players, there is a line between "rescue" and "walkthrough"
Also, if you read the MOTD or the assorted help files (we don't
write these for our benefit, we write 'em for yours, read 'em)
you'll find at least enough info to ask more specific questions.
You might also hear tell of the NPH -- if you're trying to get
a lost newbie some help, pointing them out to an NPH'er would
be a great option.
Saturday, April 24, 01:47PM
The bottom line for me is that there is nothing i've seen
you do that actually gives the system a try.
I don't take anything from people who talk before having
done or having put enough effort in it -- I scoff and snicker at those unp
wunpk ppl who have no clue what pk is about,
All it is for me that you're doing is that you want ppl
to say "oh look, this is a smart person who shouldn't
be burdened by the game but instead given a char ready-made"
or something along those lines. My response to that?
If you don't like the game, don't play it. If you have
serious objections, go through it, then tell us by pointing
out exactly why and how -- I can say stuff takes too long when I have put
hours behind a char and saw things for myself. I can
say that something is overpowered and something
isn't because I've played both sides of the game.
You, however, can only say "uhm, i heard from somebody"
or, "on this other mud..", or "i'm still learning!"
I have 0 intention of taking anyone seriously just because
they claim they are "learning." Laugh, it never ceases
to amuse me how people think all knowledge can be had
just by reading/hearing about it. Heck, I should stick you in a
physics or chemistry lab, and that alone would show you
how reading about certain procedures and knowing them
differ drastically from remembering them or actually
getting those done right.
As far as you seeing no challenge in mob killing --
Saturday, April 24, 05:39PM
Maybe I'm just an old meanie, but I find that I want to help most
people less and less. I didn't ask nor receive any help until I was
on my third character, and only then because it was offered to me,
not because I asked. And yes, my first two characters sucked. No,
they no longer exist. But yes, I do feel like I know the mud better
because I was forced to do some work on my own. I explored, I died
to stupid mobs, I hit dts, I ran into sidheville, I ran into the bog,
etc, etc. All the stupid newbie things to do, I pretty much did.
But I learned from them. And ultimately, that's how you have to learn.
Let's face it, there are still characters that are level 50, have
been around for longer than I have, and still don't know the mud.
If sitting and talking is your priority, great. Wonderful. By all
means, do that. But if you're expecting to have a powerful character,
that's something you're going to have to figure out for yourself.
No one can teach you how to do that. Or rather, other people can
make your character for you, but ultimately you're the one that's
got to play it.
Mmm, nifty digression I got on. But anyway, I really do think that
giving newbies too much help is a bad idea, and only produces
Saturday, April 24, 06:29PM
Reasons I don't always offer help when someone asks for it:
1. I'm in the middle of something else.
2. I don't have the time.
3. I'm not in the mood. Who wants my bad mood rubbed off on them?
4. Player-imposed RP restrictions.
5. Spoon-feeding leads to ignorance (and that's what some are asking for)
6. Unappreciative and impolite people. Why should I bother to go out of
my way to help someone that can't be bothered to simply say
"Thank you." ?
I will admit to having been spoon-fed. I was one of those people who
knew the spell and skill teachers, what eq did what and where to get
it, what mobs you should kill at what level and for what char type,
etc - and then didn't know how to play the game because it was all
paper and memorized knowledge. I was bored and ignorant and didn't
enjoy the game. When I took the time to learn it for myself... THEN
I started to have fun and actually UNDERSTOOD the game. Until you
experience something for yourself, until you learn it on your own
terms you may as well just be a bunch of information without any
Mice of Angesley, been there, knows how it goes.
Saturday, April 24, 08:49PM
Ok. But some of them have the time to chat, like Cyanide, about
why theyre not helping this or that newbie, say, so its not
Saturday, April 24, 08:53PM
Well, power-levelling at my level is a welcome relief from the
tediousness of killing frogs, etc. and taking forever doing it. But its
never seemed too hard to find someone wholl power level me a
level- the last time i asked, i was level 3- trust me, it didnt take
long to get to get to 4, chuckle :-p.
You cant anyways.
I -dont- want to die- Xping (even with power levelling) is dull
enough without having to do it some more. Ive been told that
once one has the sidhe friendship, dangerous lands arent so
dangerous anymore. So Ill wait until I get that.
Thats pretty much what I do. However, I regret the fact that I
cant explore much without danger.
I found one once- the people werent half as responsive as they
are here. And xping is good for those times when people dont
want to talk, just xp. Im sure that theres enough different
combinations of characters that one could go xping forever, with
different chars. Personally, if I get to level 45, Im hoping I can
become an admin, because I think thatd interest me a whole lot
more to program things then to xp when I cant find someone to
The problem, I think, is that we place -too- much value on being
able to level, thus the constant badgering to get help to level-
note that im not one of these people; i rarely ask to get levelled,
as is clear by my low level :-p.
In the cases I mentioned, people did and were ignored. In all 3
cases, the requests werent about levelling at all. Yet no one
went to help them. In desperation, I tried to find someone to help
them, but although one person in my clan said he was on the
way, apparently he didnt help after all.
I heard it was -easier- to level before.
Perhaps I said that levelling was hard. What i meant was that
levelling is tedious. On a game, why do we have to add tedious
elements to them and act like theyre great?
No, but it can change things- like, for instance, making levelling
easier :-). or perhaps raising eq limits (same effect). or introducing
some more realistic things if nothing else (like a skinning knife for
carving) so that i can feel more immersed in this environment.
Ofcourse. There are different ways of playing it though.
Personally, I like my way of asking questions and making
comments the best or I wouldnt be doing it.
I see. You think thats a good thing?
(continued in next append)
Saturday, April 24, 08:57PM
(continued from last append)
I -want- to just be able to kill, say, 15 not too hard mobs for level
49 to get to 50. Basically, to be able to level with less tedium.
5 lines is too much? How much spam, precisely, do you get
when you kill, say, a level 49 mob? Im willing to bet a hell of a
lot. And you have to do it over and over again if you want to
reach 50. Very dull stuff. Here, all you have to do is glance
over/skip the quotes and get to what I said. A -lot- less tedious
and the stuff Im saying is a lot more interesting, id think, then a
mob hitting you x amount of times or you missing him/her y
amount of times.
Sure, but as I made in a point to one of Wusss messages in
this thread, that doesnt mean that youll know -exactly- what
this or that point is referring to. Yes, one can paraphrase to get to
the point as you have, but that just makes you have to type
what I already said- the most accurate description of my
comments would, ofcourse, have been a quote, though in this
case it didnt matter. on some highly complex issues where
misinterpretation can occur, it really -can- matter though.
If people would just set their screenlen to a reasonable amount
(say, 23) then the flyby wouldnt happen. Personally, I just take
the info a screen at a time and then copy and paste it into a
word processor document. From there, I reply to the message,
complete with quotes to make it faster and ensure accuracy in
what they said (vs. the shorter but more dubious method of
paraphrasing). Finally, when im done with all the formatting and
all, I go back onto Legend and copy and paste it, around 10 to
15 lines at a time. Takes a bit of time, but, aside from a little
manual copy and pasting, I hardly find it tedious.
Because itd help me level up quicker, for one. Also because in
real life, if someone gives you this or that item, you can use it. No
such thing as rent limits there.
If I was, say, a level 50 with decent 50 eq, I dont think Id have
too much to fear from the great outdoors, aside from deathtraps
(which, if I was playing it -really- safe, Id be able to see in
advance, using the exits command). I actually dont have an
automapper- pencil and graph paper are what I use. I -do-
have a journey maker, but thats not much use when you dont
know the lay of the land.
Id be happy to have this arrangement :-). But on one condition-
the high level character would have to be pk disabled. No way
would i subject myself to the annoyance and yes, even pain
sometimes, of having pk attempts/successes on me.
Saturday, April 24, 09:00PM
I dont see why I still shouldnt condemn them, if helping newbies
doesnt count as a major factor in their agendas- This mud
seems to be doing pretty well as it is, but I think it could -really-
go places if help for newbies were to be found more often.
According to you. But if id had the power to help the 3 newbies
that were in trouble, I would have. So im thinking its more that
-you- think its unreasonable. Which, in turn, is something I dont
Do I hear selfishness implied :-p? If you want to talk to friends,
theres always tell no matter where you are. But relationships
with old friends can wait- Ive had friends of mine go off to rescue
a newbie when i was talking to them and I was proud of them.
So thats supposed to make it all better :-p? No, what that
makes is the massacres that weve seen in Kosovo.
Hey, if a newbie is -looking- for trouble, thats another matter
Ive been an oldbie on other muds and one of the primary things
I found enjoyable was helping newbies out. Heck, I remember a
time when i looked at a newbie and said god, you need a better
weapon and running out to get one, amidst some pretty real
Ofcourse. What im getting at here is that I think people should
be more helping with newbies at times, not that it should be
Not everyone- just a person here or there that gets lost, or stuck
in some trap (as long as they werent looking for trouble or some
quest item- if they are, its more complicated).
Nods. None of the newbies in question did that though. In fact,
one of them, Infested, thanked me just for -trying- to find
someone to help him.
Oh give me a break- -how- is it a threat? Its just saying how
the newbie feels- not even using bad words.
Saturday, April 24, 09:06PM
nods. As far as i know, you werent here on any of the 3
incidents I speak of. In truth, I dont even think of asking the
immortals for something like a rescue, since I perhaps mistakenly
take it as a given that theyll be pretty busy at almost any time.
And then I think Sabella said that immortals didnt get involved
IC, aside from Tad :-p. (message 28 on here).
Exactly- this mud seems to be lacking in the running to the
When a guy doesnt even know much more beyond how to
move around and chat and wants to know a little about his town
(Infested), I think hes a newbie :-p. When a person is lost near
Tara without a light (Robyn), once again, I think theyre a
newbie. As for the last person, Elisa, you may be right, she
might not be a newbie. She was caught in some sort of trap
though- if it was so hard to get her out, people could atleast
have said that id think.
I agree once again. Frankly, eq is one of the -easiest- things to
get on here- the problem I have on that count is rent limits, not
At the beginning, as Ive mentioned before, reading help files is
the -last- thing one wants to do- at the beginning, looking for
atleast one companion, I think, is the most important element.
Ive typed help and been confronted with tons of info. Even
after the time ive spent on here, I -dont- want to go looking
through that behemoth of a library just to learn things. Id rather
talk to players first- if they point me towards -specific- help files, I
usually read them.
Nods, something I d only vaguely heard about until very recently.
Saturday, April 24, 09:13PM
The more you speak of me not giving the system a try, the more
I equate this with you should be out killing more. Am I mistaken
in this equation?
Yes, supposedly Im putting -no- effort in answering all these
posts- it just takes up about half of my day, thats all :-p.
What, like me? Ive pked before, though not on this mud. I dont
like the whole idea. Did you know that the killers in colorado were
avid Doom and Duke Nukem fans? Personally, I find it chilling
and Im certainly not the only one whos beginning to think
maybe the whole philosophy of these games being fun is
messing kids up. Muds are -certainly- better then these kill
everything that moves games, but still..
While I certainly wouldnt mind a having a player thats a few
levels higher then my own, its not my top priority. Funnily enough,
my top priority has to do with figuring out who was wrong and
who was right in your tussle with Wraith. -After- that, it comes to
things like the idea that I think it takes too many mob kills on
average to level. And then things like higher rent limits, which is
basically just another way of levelling up faster.
I -have-.gone through enough to do exactly this and pointing out
the things i dislike is exactly what ive done. Id like to say that
Ive also pointed out some things i -do- like about this mud,
which is why its my online place of choice.
Why find things out again if someones already done so?
Whats wrong with introducing new ideas from other muds?
which i am.. as is everyone on here id think, to a greater or
lesser degree, if only about the new people around.
I dont think that. Skill is a type of knowledge that is -very- hard
to teach. And as always, you have to have a student thats
-trying- to learn. Reading and hearing about things wont teach
one everything, true enough. But Im certainly not just doing that.
The 2 other main things that I do on here is writing questions and
comments as to this mud.
Ive done far more then read about the way this mud works- ive
commented and questioned the way it works. In regards to my
questions, in the past ive been greatly hurt that people wouldnt
bother answering just because Im quoting or some such thing- If
you can spend hours xping and say its character building, the
-least- you can do is scan through a little quoted text.
Oh give me a break- you kill the mob with the eq, skills and/or
spells that you have. In my case, I asked around to learn what
skills would be best suited for my level and then proceeded to
find someone who could take me to the place i needed to go to
get the skill. I have yet to use any of the skills ive learned
besides cooking, but Ive been on other muds with lots of skills
and spells and -really- dont think this mud is that different in that
regard. At present, my preferred method of levelling is power
levelling, but I did level once under my own steam, as tedious as
it was. I suppose there could be a challenge in killing some
higher up mobs, but the fact of the matter is, its only because of
their immense damage without eq/high damage resistence/high
hps that theyre challenging at all- Clearly theyre not intelligent
enough to know that when their hps are running low, they should
run and run -fast- to a safe room if possible, or if not, to keep on
running for a good while. Nevermind collecting good eq or using
skills like bandage and surgery. Yes, I can see that pking would
be more of a challenge. But the thought of even -virtually- killing
someone just to have fun is repugnant to me. In terms of a
challenge, personally I think that coming up with messages for
this debate is far more challenging then just trying to kill someone-
here, its not a black and white thing where the other person is
wrong and must be dealt with as one could think of pking. No,
here, one must have -good- reasons for downing someone in
debate or it wont fly.
Saturday, April 24, 11:07PM
in append 19, Yi writes:
You make it sound like asking for help is close to a
Not forced- you -could- have asked other players for help.
As did I.
I only died twice here; once while xping with a fellow newbie- i
attacked the wrong mob- a prince, it seems :-p. I think I was
almost wasted in one round, fled, he caught up with me and
finished the job :-p. That reminds me, methinks this mud should
have an assist feature, wherein you assist anyone in your
group who attacks something :-). Other muds Ive been on have
a feature like this anyways, tfc amoung them, and it proved to be
quite useful. The other time, I was doing a quest, with aid- i
looked at some viking type of woman and she fried me :-p. I think
the main reason for this is that I havent gone past the danger in
this direction boundaries and dont plan to until Im assured by
someone who knows and that I trust that its alright for my level- i
take my character life very seriously and Im not going to risk him
for what I view as a dumb reason- seeing just -how- far I can
go before dying.
The hard and painful way :-p. Me, Im going to try to learn things
by less painful measures- by asking people.
I have a powerful and influential character. Just not in level :-p.
Oh, I agree. I think where we disagree is how much help is too
much help and how much help is too litte :-p.
Saturday, April 24, 11:10PM
in append 20, Mice writes:
Such as any old thing or something thats a pain to stop like a
grouped xp run or an xp run far away from home?
<2. I don't have the time.>
Because you need to xp or because you have to go?
<3. I'm not in the mood. Who wants my bad mood rubbed off on
Personally, rescuing a newbie cheers me up. However, its kind
of depressing right now, because at my level, the only people id
be able to rescue are people -very- close to Tara.
<4. Player-imposed RP restrictions.>
Define this a bit more?
<5. Spoon-feeding leads to ignorance>
I draw the line at some point myself- I wont go on an xp run
with a newbie if i dont feel like xping at a given time, say (which
is almost always, he :-p). And Im not going to try to rescue a
newbie unless I know where they are, how to get there and that
itd be very unlikely that Id die trying to save them or get lost with
them- No point in -both- of us being messed up. Im also not
going to try to get an item for them unless Ive developed a liking
for them- items are hard to get and at lower levels, one doesnt
need too much (and no, i -still- dont think that justifies the low
rent limits for starter levels).
<6. Unappreciative and impolite people. Why should I bother to
go out of my way to help someone that can't be bothered to
simply say "Thank you."?>
true enough. but unless youve had experience with the person
before, its kind of hard to tell whether theyre this way.
Ofcourse, theres the teachers and then theres the practical
application. School is basically the teachers and working could
be considered practical application. Each has its purpose. I
agree that it can be boring knowing what to do -when- you get
to x or y level, but once you get there, well, personally, I value
that kind of information highly. I wasnt always like this; when I
started out on my first mud, tfc, I too died many times exploring
around (particularly in a green dragons lair that I always seemed
to wander to :-p). I was pretty ignorant of equipment and at one
point wondered why my carrying capacity had gone up to 500
kg until i died and lost my eq (i must have been wearing atleast
one pretty nice piece of equipment, which i lost to a certain green
dragon, sigh). After these harsh experiences and the amount of
time it took to get the xp back, I became determined to shy away
from the costly lure of exploring uncharted territories on there (they
didnt have nice warning signs like we have here). So basically, I
would think that I -am- an oldbie of muds in general and Id like
to go through as little newbie stuff as possible.
Saturday, April 24, 11:55PM
Okay.. let's see where your arguments come from.
1. You want the MUD to be easier, in that it'd be easier to level,
and build a level 50 character.
I have currently 4 level 50s, all of which were painstakingly built
(one under the new system) and I'm really proud of them. It's like
I'd just passed my ACCA, ICSA, MBA and PhD etc.. you get out of life
what you put into it. If it were any easier to level, perhaps I'd
have 10, or perhaps not be too attached to each character. I know
of some people who can build pkillers, perma them, try again, perma,
try another combo, perma etc.. so quickly you don't even notice
that they're the same player, and could swear that they were all
playing at about the same month or so. These people put a lot of
time and effort into creating their characters, and if they can
do it, I don't see why we can't.
You claim mobkill as being tedious, yet you insist you want a big
character. You claim human interaction is the most important thing
here, and yet the ONLY human interaction here which requires high
levels is pkill, which you of course detest. Some of the best Role
players here are ridiculously small, yet are equally respected in
their own fields as are the biggest pkillers about. I was shocked
to meet many rp-giants and find that most of them aren't even
level 30, or in some cases, 20. To claim you want to have a level
50 quick, and claim that you don't like mobkill OR pkill, and only
want to chat, seems to defeat the purpose of having a level 50 in
the first place. Sure, some may say "I want a level 50 so I can
better serve the MUD and help newbies". You can do that at low-
levels. If what you say is true, all newbies require are
information, which the MUD populace is so selfish with. All we
need to do is provide some guidance.. you can give guidance at
2. Rent limits should be raised.
At the moment, like some of the more experienced people out there
have pointed out, people have more than enough rent to rent a
seperate set of eq, or a chalice, or items to sell, or in some
cases, two mega-weapons. I don't see how we need more rent. If
the only reason you want more rent is so that little newbies
can get away with using mega eq, perhaps you'd prefer the system
of level limits to eq. As it is, there's nothing to prevent a
level 10 from using Vlad's sword, or Cuchullain's shield, if
he so desires and manages to get it. Just don't expect to be kitted
out like Morphine or T-Bone at level 1. It's unreasonable to expect
such an easy life in what is supposed to be a progressive
character development process. You develop your RP over a period of
time, in the same way you develop your stats and eq over a period
3. This MUD is unfriendly.
I think enough has been said on this subject.
In all cases, Jean, you are defending the right of the newbie to
have an easy and smooth-sailing life, while all the rest of us are
trying to say is that you have to earn that smooth-sailing life.
It's not so much "we did it so you have to", but more of "it's your
choice whether you want to be big, and if you do work towards that
goal". If I could waltz into a company as a Managing Director without
running through some experience beforehand, or if I could have an
MBA degree handed to me on a platter without having to study it,
life would be just peachy, yes, no? Unfortunately, this is life.
You remind me of my elders, like they get a new gadget/VCR etc, and
can't be bothered to read the manual, and want someone to teach them,
can't find it, and eventually there are two choices - either you play
the VCR, with or without manual (which will determine how long before
you get it working), or you give up totally on the VCR. It's be a
shame to see you quit just because you found it too hard, because
you have some nice ideas which I'm sure will contribute to the
improvement of Legend.. but in the end how good a character Jean
becomes will depends MOSTLY on how much you are willing to work
to Jean's development, and not how much we are willing to work
for Jean's development.
(who forgot to log Fairfax to write this)
Sunday, April 25, 01:57AM
(part 1 of 3)
in append 29, FairfaxII writes:
Id think one would learn more to pass PhDs and such :-p.
Well, some are luckier then others, but there certainly is a
reciprocal element in life.
The point is how much time you have to spend xping to get
this done. I just think that much of the time spent xping to
get to 50 could be put to better use.
Yeah. Theres no contradiction in those 2 wishes, despite
your implication of such.
Well, i wouldnt quite put it at detest, but dislike and
fervently avoid would definitely be in there ;-p. However,
your statement isnt quite true- Until very recently, I didnt
even have sidhe friendship, so the confines of what I could
explore were pretty small. Even with this friendship, Im still
afraid of the new terrain I can explore, but I have a feeling
im going to try to explore it.. hopefully ill know what is and
what isnt the path :-). So why am i so interested in
exploring? Well, exploring is one of the few things that
doesnt require human interaction that i kind of like, he :-).
After all, people did write all the descrips to the rooms and
stuff.. a little like a story anyways. But the most important
part of exploring is that ill know more territory and maybe
even get to another town. That, in turn, means that Id be
able to help someone in all the new territory if they were,
say, lost :-).
Not without a much higher risk of dying trying to help in
Actually, I didnt say the mud populace was that selfish with
info, though I was a little irritated with Wuss and his
secrets, he :-p. What I think almost -any- player needs on
here is human companionship. Knowledge of how this mud
works is certainly nice though.
Not quite.. companionship isnt just a matter of guidance..
also, itd be nice to be able to explore together with a friend
whos in, say, london, when im in Tara. That might require
having to deal with some level 10+ aggro mobs, perhaps..
something i cant do at level 4 :-p.
Sure. But I cant rescue a newbie from a place ive never
Sunday, April 25, 01:59AM
(part 2 of 3)
in append 29, FairfaxII writes:
<2. Rent limits should be raised.
At the moment, like some of the more experienced people
out there have pointed out, people have more than enough
rent to rent a seperate set of eq, or a chalice, or items to
sell, or in some cases, two mega-weapons. I don't see how
we need more rent.>
Youre thinking high level people. I couldnt keep the 2
earrings of morrigan that I had at level.. 2 or 3, because i
wanted the orb of world peace (i so disliked having to get oil
over and over for my lamp- this is one area where i
-definitely- wish mud time would keep up with real time- in
real time, that oil would last a whole lot longer, he :-).).
Thinking about earring of morrigan has gotten me thinking
of another thing though- how one shouldnt kill a mob thats
nice just because theyve got nice eq. Maybe I can figure
out some kind of reason why Donnegals evil.. but he was
so nice when he taught me that skill.. In real life, you
wouldnt get everything you earned by plundering it.. Well, I
heard something about merchant skills coming in that
would make it easier for people who didnt want to do so
much killing.. maybe thats what im looking for, he :-).
No- i dislike limits on eq of any kind. The 2 muds I was on
frequently before didnt even have the concept of rent in
them. On one of them, eq was so hard to find that few and
far between were the newbies who had that great stuff on
them, though it was possible if they had -real- high up
player friends. On the other, nice eq was -way- easy to get-
high level players would get the tough stuff and then
redistribute it to newbies they found ok- -that- was the stuff,
he :-). However, what both of these muds lacked was the
kind of liberal admins that this mud has. Having liberal
admins is more important then any eq/xp problem ive
Even with the best eq, a level 1 char would still be limited in
amount of skills/spells, hp, mana points, movement.. its not
like a char could have -everything- at level 1, even with no
rent limits whatsoever. And ofcourse, while, say, level 20 or
30 level eq might not be so hard to come by, level 40 or 50
must be- so even then, i doubt many if any newbies would
be fully decked out with 50 gear even without rent limits :-p.
Developing ones rp is fine, as well as the stats bit, but if a
rich person in real life gave you nice stuff, thered be no
rent cops saying you were over limit when you checked into
somewhere to sleep :-p.
Sunday, April 25, 02:03AM
(part 3 of 3)
in append 29, FairfaxII writes:
<3. This MUD is unfriendly.>
I never said that. I said that people generally dont go
rescuing newbies when they get lost or would like a helping
hand when they just start out (not necessarily to level, but
maybe -how- to level, andaras homepage, things of that
Life is never smooth sailing, on or off mud. What Im trying
to say is that I dont think the hard part of a mud should be
in levelling so much, but in building good relationships with
other players (that will always be a challenge) in ic -and-
ooc ways (ive never been one that likes separating offline
from online too much- i kind of combine the 2).
Isnt it though? To get to a high level, you want it to be just
as difficult- in fact -more- difficult then it used to be..
Im doing just that- by trying to persuade people that itd be
in everyones best interests to make it easier to level to 50.
Not quite. Learning how to xp effectively is a -lot- easier
then getting, say, an MBA and for good reason- you have
to learn a lot more to get an MBA. Id also think that theres
a lot less repetitiveness in getting an MBA. (Now to figure
out what MBA means :-) ).
This seems more like learning the commands of a mud. Ive
done that well enough now.
Personally, I think its a combination of both and I think
were all party to this, if we dont just focus on levelling here.
To me, what were doing right now, discussing the mud,
what we think is good about it and bad about it, is more
important then something like xping will ever be. When we
discuss things, I think we -all- develop in our understanding
of the players on this mud and why we like things the way
they are or want to change them; even whether our wishes
for change or the status quo are valid or not eventually i
hope (i dont care if im right or wrong, im just looking for
the universal right answer, always :-) ). I doubt Ill quit this
mud- i didnt even quit my former muds- i was banned from
them, he :-p. When i was banned from my first mud, i did
some research as to what the best mud out there was-
after reading descriptions of various muds on the mud
connector and trying them out to see if the mud matched
my expectations of it, I came to the conclusion that this was
the best mud in town, after a false start (the lack of newbie
help was what made me not take to the mud at first- the
second time around, i was just more persistent in getting
help, he :-p).
Sunday, April 25, 09:50AM
First, I'd just like to point out one little thing. You're quite
enamored of realism, when it suits you, which is why I find it
funny that you made a stink about lanterns in one of your posts,
saying that they should last more like "real time". Well...last
I checked, most lanterns in the game, when full, will last around
150 game hours. Try to keep an oil lantern lit for 150 RL hours,
and you'll be disappointed. Remember, keeping a lantern lit for
150 hours is keeping it lit for over 6 days. That's a long time.
More realistically, oil lanterns would probably use up their
oil in around 6 hours. I'm not sure of that, just a wild guess.
But I know for sure they ain't gonna last no 6 days.
Secondly- you don't seem at all willing to listen to other people's
arguments. You're so convinced of your own correctness that every
time someone tries to answer you, or explain where you're wrong,
you just parry that back at them with one of your quoted answers.
I won't speak for anyone else, but personally, it's incredibly
frustrating to try to talk to someone who you know won't listen
to you no matter what you say.
Unless of course we happen to agree with you, which personally,
I don't. And I don't think I will.
Sunday, April 25, 10:01AM
Oh, while I'm here. You say that leveling shouldn't be the hardest
part of the mud, the hardest part of the mud should be building up
relationships. Bingo. You're dead on there. And guess what? That's
how it is. I can build a level 50 character in...oh...probably three
weeks, if I set my mind to it, which I rarely do. But I've been here
for a year, and there are 4, maybe 5 people here that I would consider
ooc friends, and maybe 5 more that I wouldn't mind getting to know ooc.
And also, you say that newbies wouldn't be decked out in level 50
eq. And I can tell you there that you're dead wrong. Make a newbie,
slip the word to your friends "hey, it's soandso, wanna get me some
stuff?" and stuff will be got. Don't forget that a lot of the "decent"
eq mobs on Legend can be soloed. Not all of them, obviously, but a
good enough proportion that a newbie could be really well eq-ed by
even one level 50 friend. At that point, leveling would become even
more of a snap than it is. Let's say, for instance, that I made a str/con
char. With the eq in the game from mobs that I would consider "soloable",
that char could have a decent sword, a herne's or maybe two, a few
brine rings, and in general could come pretty close to oh, I dunno,
at least 90 strength or so at level 1, with spiffy hit/dam. And you
say that newbies won't have the same hp/mv/mana whatever as bigger chars,
but here's where your inexperience with the system shows. Stats make a
much bigger difference than hp/mv/mana. A -much- bigger difference.
Why do you think it's such a tragedy for level 50 chars to DT?
Because without their +stat eq, they're pretty much helpless.
'Kay. That's it for now.
Sunday, April 25, 01:39PM
in append 33, Yi writes:
I rest my case- -game- hours only last about a minute a
piece. Im hoping that they get extended to, say, real hour
time.. or atleast a 10 fold increase or so.
Ofcourse. But a rew rl hours wouldnt be bad.
Hardly. Not only do i listen to them, but I go over them, piece
by piece- theres practically -nothing- i fail to cover in a post-
most people, on the other hand, simply focus on certain
points in my posts when they reply, with important
ommissions at times; still, enoughs going on to keep me
plenty busy :-).
Again, hardly, The quote is the primer- its setting the focus.
My reply could be considered not just as a parry, but as a
new offensive for my idea- i mean offensive as in taking the
offense- challenging you to atleast come up with a parry :-).
Personally, I think its the other way around that many of
-you- arent listening to what -i- say. The fact that most of
you dont even bother to quote, let alone paraphrase,
emphasizes this point.
See, youve already got your mind set on the idea that you
wont agree with me. I, on the other hand, am open to
agreeing to certain points, though i hardly think anyone could
expect me to agree to -everything- others think, or id be
Sunday, April 25, 01:43PM
in append 34, Yi writes:
Oh, you know more about my relationships on here then I do,
eh :-p? god, the arrogance. Just because I dont get along
with many posters on here says nothing of the relationships i
have out of these boards. And remember, not everyone who
reads the boards posts- I -do- have friends here, if not
friends who are posters. One thing though- id like to say that
Im getting along pretty good with Mice now and i apologize
for being accusatory in a recent reply to her here.
You mean if you xp and xp til youre blue in the face. Not my
idea of fun or even a productive endeavour, other then getting
those levels. Another thing here- were rewarding people for
killing profusely.. like in games like doom and duke nukem..
did you know that the colorado killers were avid doom and
duke nukem fans? So I ask you again- do we -really- want
to reward people for killing so much- of -any- mob, including
quite innocent looking people mobs? Personally, I think there
shoud be -negative- experience for killing good mobs. Not to
mention the whole town falling on you if theres a mob
witness; its certainly be a lot more realistic and healthy for us
to realize that in reality, killing living creatures is done a lot less
for sport then here- also, in real life, one can gain skill in killing,
but aside from a little muscle and knowledge of the
terrain/game you want to kill, not much else. In the real world,
most of us gain things by working, not killing things.. for the
few that work by killing, they make their money by selling the
pelts.. a little more reality on that would be nice..
The problem here, if it could be called a problem, is that
things are so easy to get. On the first mud I was on, tfc,
things were so hard to get that even the highest of players
was hard done by to get decent eq. Basically, almost -all-
eq had random stats- no rent on anything. Good things to get
on this mud, not to mention getting enough xp, was so
tedious, however, that many players felt it was too much and
created a new mud called realm of the wanderer (the second
mud I was on). I turned to that mud when i was banned from
tfc (full story at http://www.purerave.com/-shade/tfc/). On
Realm of the wanderer, there was a fair amount of nice non
random eq and getting a fair amount of that eq was incredibly
easy for high level players , kind of like here, only there were
no rent limits, so newbies could be sitting pretty if they had a
high level friend :-). They said that changes would be made
once they got out of test mode for the mud (at which time, all
player files would be wiped), but heres to hoping they wont
make getting eq as hard to get as say, tfc. In any case, I
was banned from that mud as well.
Its a snap right now? Hardly. Before it used to be a lot
easier I hear though..
Sounds nice :-). But thatd require a lot of help from a high
level char- if you have that kind of friends, why not? In real
life, you could certainly move far with well moneyed friends,
I actually knew that. The point is that hps still count for a fair
amount. And you cant get nice spells and presumably good
skill damage for higher aggro mobs until higher levels.
Thank goodness it isnt as hard for them to get eq as it is to
level or theyd -really- be in a pickle :-p. And yet, when a
high level char wants to make a new char, theyve got to go
through the tedium of levelling once again if they want to be
able to go around relatively unencumbered by aggro mobs..
Monday, April 26, 06:04AM
This is a game. To be more specific, it's a game that to a certain
point emulates reality. However, in creating any model, you are
forced to simplify, and so we find ourselves inside a world which
is less than infinitely diverse, and to advance we find we must
repeat ourselves. And therefore we have tedium. While killing mobs
can be tedious, I hardly find the UO model more attractive. Chop
some wood, carry it into town, sell it. Go back into the forest,
chop down another tree, etc. Here we can at least try ourselves
against constructions of a devious mind, created carefully with
tools that are not inconsequential. Yes, in other words, mobs.
This is a mud, a game. If you don't want to -play-, then don't.
If you merely want to socialize, find a chat. If you merely want
to explore without any risk of losing invested time, read a book.
(On the same subject, try grouping while xping. Killing solo can
often be more efficient, at least for experienced players, but it
is all the more boring.)
I like this game. I like the game itself, and I like many of the
people I've met here. I even like to dislike some of the people
I don't like. But in the end, I play here because it is a selfish
action. I play when -I- want to, I play with who -I- want to (if
they want to play with me) and if I help someone, it's because
-I- want to. I don't come here just to be at other people's
disposal, to help them whenever they need help, I come here for
almost purely selfish reasons and you know - it doesn't make me a
bad person. I'm even GM of the NPH - New Player Helpers - and it
still doesn't make me a bad person.
Most specifically, ignoring someone who asks for help over chat
doesn't make me come anywhere close to the people driving the
albanians out of Kosovo.
Stick, who is an avid fan of Duke Nuke'em but has yet to go
berserk with automatic weapons and severely dislikes the
comparison between mobkill and the Colorado incident.
Monday, April 26, 12:38PM
I am sad to hear that someone is implying that Legendites,
in general, are not helpful to newbies. On the contrary, the
players of LegendMUD are quite helpful and friendly. However,
one rarely hears about their good deeds. Instead, one hears
complaints about certain incidents, which are then used to
support statements such as: people here are unhelpful and
their behavior is shameful.
Many players help other players of all proficiency, new and
old. In addition, they take the humble approach to helping
others: they help without a desire or need for recognition.
Unfortunately, due to such actions, Legendites are
continually accused of being unhelpful, unfriendly, and quite
rude. So, if someone inquires for help in an inn, and another
player generously offers help, should that player announce
on a public channel that he or she has helped someone? No.
Most players that have been ignored, in my experience, bring
it upon themselves. They do this by being demanding, by not
being appreciative, and by disrespecting simple etiquette
(such as not spamming others). Sometimes, players are just
not in the mood to help others. One can only do so much at
once. If someone has committed to an activity with someone
else, it is not that easy to disengage and help a newbie.
For instance, Shadow Lands. Yes, a few newbies are looked
over, and some even leave our domain with negative feelings.
No, it is not fair to newbies. However, I have still yet to
meet someone so helpful that they are always at the
assistance of others. People have personal desires and need
personal time. It is only unfortunately that some newbies
are ignored. But it would still be a stretch to say that the
players of LegendMUD are unhelpful.
I can better speak for my former clanmates of NPH and myself.
We tried our best to help players and to motive others to
help players via positive means. Hiya, buddy, this newbie
needs help re-eq'ing. Wanna join our group? Hiya! I gotta
run. Could you please explain the difference between con,
dex, and str weapons to this newbie? It is quite simple.
The question is: are you going to help players or complain
that players are unhelpful? A negative approach to a problem
usually generates negative actions and results. Nobody really
benefits from accusations and complaints. People only become
defensive, more agitated, and less friendly, which causes the
rift between players to increase when we want it to decrease.
I am not going to persuade my fellow Legendites to be more
helpful and to motivate others to help. They already are
becoming more helpful. It is unfortunate that others do not
Stradivari ... unarchived for a little bit.
P.S.- Hehe. NPH prolly wants some answers. =P
Monday, April 26, 07:12PM
(part 1 of 2)
in append 37 Stick writes:
Sure. But we -can- reduce some of that tedium,
just like we do in real life, with computers, for
Thats a realistic way of gaining muscle/str
anyways. Personally, I prefer stat quests for
that though, if only because some tedious parts
of realism we can do without on a mud.
You lost me on this tools thing..
I do want to play. I just think that there should
be some improvements.
Chat rooms dont have as sophisticated
environment- not to mention bossy ops.
You dont play a time in a book. I always risk
something. When i post on here and disagree
with most people on here, im risking a lot.
possible friends, for one. Only one thing would
make me risk that much and that is the desire
to make something better then what it
currently is- this mud, say.
<(On the same subject, try grouping while xping.
Killing solo can often be more efficient, at least
for experienced players, but it is all the more
Thats certainly true. Ive only levelled once
ungrouped. However, I still find that it takes too
long to level, even when power levelling.
Monday, April 26, 07:18PM
(part 2 of 2)
in append 37 Stick writes:
<..in the end, I play here because it is a selfish
action. I play when -I- want to, I play with who
-I- want to (if they want to play with me) and if
I help someone, it's because -I- want to.>
Certainly. I think what should be more defined
is the definition of self and what is a good
definition of self and what is not. Personally, my
definition of self includes pretty much
everything on this planet. Sure, my main girl
occupies more of my thinking time then
everything else combined, but the point is that
its all there. So when I see someone in distress,
my natural reaction is to try to help. It gives me
a lot of pleasure to help, so i dont find it a
problem. Ofcourse, we must understand what i
mean by distress- if, say, a newbie is lost in an
unfamiliar location without a light, id say thats
distress. Or theyve just gotten on the mud and
dont know how to do anything, that can be
pretty stressful and depressing (atleast thats
the way i felt when i first got onto this mud and
found help wanting). Or someones trapped
somewhere and would like a helping hand to get
out. It does -not- include power levelling
(though id prefer levelling with -anyone-
instead of just myself.. as long as they killed
mobs that werent of noble nature, like, say,
From my experience, its fairly rare when a
newbie -really- needs help. But personally, this
reminds me of a book i read by kurt vonnegut
jr.- the sirens of titan; in the ending, after a guy
had been all upset that hed been used and all, a
woman said what i found to be one of the best
lines ive ever heard- better to have been used
then to have been useless. Thinking about it, I
found that being useless must be perhaps be
the worst feeling on earth. So yes, watch out
from being used, but take even -more- care
that youre not useless to others as well, or you
may find yourself wanting in what amounts to a
type of love.
Would you have helped the people i mentioned
above? Because if you wouldnt have, I question
whether you should be GM of what purports to
be a helper of newbies.
Never said it did.
Ofcourse you would. What fan of Duke Nukeem
would like that type of comparison made? And
yet, and yet.. Its not the game, I think, but the
philosophy behind all those types of games,
including, i argue, so much xping- that one gets
rewarded for killing. Heck, Ive known people
compare pking to sex. Personally, I think its
time that more realism is added in terms of
consequences- the world isnt a bunch of
demons needing to be shot at- theyre people-
in the case of the colorado killers, boys and girls
of a young age. Until the whole philosophy that
glorifies violence is put to rest, I doubt well
have any rest in our society.
Monday, April 26, 08:03PM
This gets more and more tangled---
You don't seem to mind killing for xp in general. However, having to
kill often or in great numbers to gain xp, you liken to school shootings
and ethnic cleansing. If you're seriously opposed to killing, don't play
a mud. You may argue that killing isn't the most important part of a mud--
and it's a debateable point--but at some basic level, what separates a mud
from most other types of M--'s is the fact that you have a means with whic
which to kill, and to thereby increase in power. If having to kill to
become more powerful bothers you, take some advice, and find a decent moo
or mush. If you believe that computerized violence is wrong on any level,
you have to believe that it's wrong on every level. Killing a little
isn't morally better than killing a lot. Likewise, killing mobs on a mud
isn't any morally better than killing those pig cops in Duke Nukem.
Anyway, I'm not exactly sure what your whole computer violence point was,
so I'll move on.
Oh, without trying to fight someone else's battles for him, I'd just like
to say that your questioning Stick's competence to run the NPH is really
Lastly- you mentioned that the tragic case of the poor lost
newbie and how stressful and depressing it is.
Get over it.
It's something everyone goes through at least once. It's well and
good if someone runs over and helps the newbie, but if not, well...
Daylight is never more than 10 mud hours away. Let me put it simply-
no one on this mud has any sort of moral obligation to help newbies.
We simply don't. Getting a light or a recall potion to a newbie may
give some people the warm fuzzies, but not to everyone, and not all
the time. I'll admit it, most of the time I simply can't be bothered.
I come here to further my own twisted, mass-mob-murdering agenda,
and to talk to my friends, and to have some fun. If helping a newbie
fits in there somewhere, then I'll do it. If not, then I won't.
Do I feel guilty about that? Nope. Did I feel bad when you laid that
guilt trip down on the mud for not helping newbies? Still nope.
It's a shame if being lost makes some newbie stressed and depressed,
but hell, we're all here because we want to be, no one's forcing us,
and if being lost bums someone out that much, maybe they should
rething why they're here? After all, there are going to be things that
are going to be much bigger drags than being lost for a little while.
Monday, April 26, 10:36PM
(Part 1 of 2)
in append 38, Stradivari writes:
Ok, I admit it, it was 2 incidents that got my
attention. The first was my own treatment
when I first got on here and the second was the
3 incidents, happening in close conjunction, of
Robyn, Elisa and Infested all needing important
help, as Ive mentioned before, and getting
none, despite my best efforts to secure some for
As I mentioned above, it was the fact that no
one was helped in the above list for atleast a
good while (in Robyns case, she must have
found her own way back or been killed, because
the next time i saw her (long time from original
time) she seemed to say that no one helped her.
that got to me, not the fact that people werent
announcing they were helping them (didnt
seem like there was anything to announce this
time). Also, the attitude that Cyanide showed,
saying that newbies shouldnt be helped in the
ways i mentioned got to me.
In the cases i mentioned, I dont think that was
the case- for one, Infested was brand new to
this mud. Robyn was pretty new as well it
seemed and as for Elisa, no one mentioned her
being demanding, though Cyanide had plenty of
time saying how all of you experienced players
Ofcourse. But in that case, one could atleast
announce that one is busy at the moment and
could help later. And there were -so- many
people on, compared to these 3 people who
needed help, im sure others could have helped
if theyd wanted to.
Monday, April 26, 10:36PM
(Part 2 of 2)
in append 38, Stradivari writes:
I wouldnt meet that bill myself, true enough-
xp runs do call for non help at times.
Not all players, no. I was referring to players like
Cyanide and Wuss who think it builds
character when newbies are left to fend for
themselves lost without a light or trapped.
I help pretty much- even when I cant help
personally, Ill usually say so, just to let the
newbie know that their voice hasnt gone
unheard. Furthermore, Ive tried to get help for
the aforementioned newbies by asking others to
help (I couldnt help any of them, since they all
involved a type of search and rescue). To no
avail, apparently, but I certainly tried.
One does if it exposes players close minded
Not necessarily. Today, my little sister called me
a hypocrite for extolling the virtues of not
eating things like chocolate and then eating
some of her chocolate chip cookies. She was right
and i claimed no contest. I could have explained
in further detail why Id munched on the
cookies, but she didnt want that, so that was
Perhaps that is the case. Ive been here too little
time to tell the difference. All Im saying is that I
think they should be more helpful as a whole
then they currently are (id think that most if
not all NPH players are already helpful enough).
Monday, April 26, 11:16PM
(Part 1 of 2)
in append 41, Deirdre writes:
Well.. in the sense that hunting will help you get
better at hunting, no.
Actually, I never likened it to ethnic cleansing.
That was in reference to an idea for a way of
doing a mud- for instance, that we could have a
new era, called the modern era, which would
be pretty much present day, complete with
types like milosevic. You could then join the
KLA, NATO or, well.. that would be controversial,
but maybe even the Serbs (after all, they have
a story to tell too, even if theyre not right).
As we all know, mud killing isnt real. Whats
more, im not a vegetarian, so things -are- killed
for me to eat (even if i dont do the killing).
However, Ive made my feelings known about
killing innocent looking creatures or human
mobs. Ofcourse, whether a mob is or isnt
innocent can be open to interpretation.. But it
just feels wrong when people kill everything in
Tara- it -does- seem something like ethnic
cleansing, now that I think of it. I justify power
levelling in the dun with the idea that the
monarchy is corrupt and so are all the guards
and should be put to the sword, but im
somewhat dissatisfied with this- I mean, where
is the looks of a rebellion, for instance? Cant see
Thats not true. Violence can be taken to
extremes- there was a rather amusing song
saying how we were cruel to plants, say. If we
dont atleast kill plants to eat, were dead. And
Im not even a vegetarian.
True, as long as youre killing the right things.
But as long as youre killing the right things, its
not about morals, but about tediousness.
The whole point was that I think that we live in
a society that rewards violence too much in
fantasy worlds- sooner or later, it spills out into
the real one, with tragic consequences as we all
Monday, April 26, 11:16PM
(Part 2 of 2)
in append 41, Deirdre writes:
I questioned it on the conditional that he wasnt
helping much. If hes pretty helpful with
newbies, then hes fine i would think.
You really would like me to, wouldnt you? Why,
exactly? Surely, you must spend tons of hours
xping. Why not a little time to talk of how this
mud treats its newbies in general?
Im hoping that will change.
Someone could have told the newbie that (id
forgotten). In any case, daylight did come- the
newbie was still lost, though and in potentially
I suppose most people just cant be bothered
helping the wayward newbie- they need more
xp or money, supposedly. At level 6 and after
only playing on this mud for a few weeks,
however, I find -plenty- of time to help newbies.
What does this say of others morals in
comparison to mine on this issue?
Ok- if one is very upset over something, I grant
you thats a good reason. But otherwise.. well, as
I said above.
Well, to each their own. Just dont expect me to
respect you for those actions.
One could say that about life too- most of us
could probably find some way of killing
ourselves. So yes, youre right, we all could just
leave this mud, our lives, whatever. I was just
hoping people could care enough to want to no
want that to happen and to take steps to
prevent it from happening. Some do. Others, like
you, may not.
Like dying and having to re-equip/regain xp Id
guess. In those cases, too, I hope that people
help. And yes, its all up to a person
and their morals- ill just hope that those
morals are good ones.
Tuesday, April 27, 08:41AM
I don't come here for your respect, Jean. And I certainly don't
see what the hell right you have to judge here. Get off your damn
Tuesday, April 27, 07:03PM
in append 46, Deirdre writes:
Well, there you go then.
Everyone judges Deidre. Sometimes privately,
sometimes publicly. Certainly, many people have
Hey, I like my high horse. And the view is nice too..