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helping newbies..

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Posted by Jean on 04/27

When I was a newbie on here for the first time and asked for help when I got on, one person asked what i needed help on. When I said everything, no one responded to me at all. Today, a newbie just got on and asked for help- he was in a strange town and might not have known the first thing of mudding besides how to chat. I personally would have helped him, only i have no idea how to get to tudor, and at level 3, i don't think it would have been a wise journey anyways. So i asked others to help. The only person who responded was Cyanide and she gave the very convenient excuse that people should "learn" by themselves. Is this how we teach our young ones on here? By leaving them all alone? Personally, I think this is shameful. On the issue of helping people, i've seen other players lost or caught in traps and no one seemed interested in helping. I managed to get help for one of the people i saw once, but I couldn't find -anyone- to help the second- it was lagged, so I had to leave that time. Personally, I think that people should be just a -little- more humanitarian with the little ones of this mud.

From: Wuss Friday, April 23, 08:07PM

I don't speak for everyone, nor even the majority, but when I say "help" I take care to distinguish it from spoon-feeding. There are things I understand to be less-than-straight-forward, and with some of those I will offer help -- at my leisure. But when somebody comes up to me asking an answer for everything without giving stuff a shot -- for eq, for xp, for quests, etc, I am more than likely to just snicker. The way I see it, this is a game where a good deal is vested on people learning things on their own, and more importantly, keeping certain knowledges to themselves for various reasons. I personally share all my secrets with a close circle of friends, and only disclose them to others when I see it serving another purpose. (no, they ain't bugs). Back when I was a newbie, I created newbies in all the hometowns simply because I didn't know how to get from one place to another, while wanting to see as much of the mud as possible. I've had chars who didn't leave their hometown until level 15, simply because I didn't know the mud -- and all the gear I got was from shops... I'm not saying this is the way to go, nor that it was a very smart thing to do, but since that has been my experience (and judging from what I know of the mud now, a worthwhile one) I won't be eager nor approving of efforts at 'ruining' such an experience, nor people who wish to circumspect it. Thus, I won't give the kind of 'help' that people seem to ask for. So before anyone starts whining about people being not helpful, you should understand that not everyone sees that as 'helping' but simply ruining the experience. Wuss

From: Wuss Friday, April 23, 08:14PM

Also, the LegendMUD website, and a few others related to Legend, offer pages and pages of help -- mostly because nobody likes to repeat the same exact words everytime a newbie is created. Moreover, if anything, I would refrain from using channels to give directions or other help to a newbie -- some newbies don't appreciate being told and have stuff broadcast that they wished to find out on their own, or have invested some time figuring out for themselves. You can always use tells, since you will only be answering one newbie at a time. Wuss

From: Jean Friday, April 23, 10:21PM

Wuss writes: Ill go into the only one I can think of offhand- quets- supposedly theyre supposed to be done alone and there is a certain amount of code to assure that some of it -is- done without someone basically doing the quest for you. Personally, Id rather have quests that vary every time one does it so that its not so easy for someone to help one out- or to do it again with a new character of ones own. But on the instances that I was referring to, quests didnt seem to be the issue at all- in the case of Infested (not a char of mine, btw), hed just gotten on this mud and could -really- have used a helping hand id think. He told me thanks for trying anyways, but I felt down that I couldnt do something. Personally, the reason I think that so many people are on muds is -certainly- not for things like xping- if youd like to kill things, there are games on nintendo, etc., that I think are as sophisticated if not more and are a -lot- better on the graphical side.. not to mention the maneuvarability :-p. I come here because theres other people here to talk to and to help one learn the neat things you can do on a mud. For this reason, I think that, atleast from a newbies point of view, the best thing would be to have someone help him/her. Now, from the experienced players point of view- Ive played on various muds and have racked up over 1000 hours im sure. The point isnt whether someone on here has racked up more- i know they have. The point is that, in terms of muds as a whole, im fairly well experienced. I can also tell you that, regardless of how high or low my level has been on a mud, Ive -always- tried to help newbies if I wasnt in the middle of an xp run or a pk hunt (-very- rare that i was on one of those, but anyways :-p). Ive talked to an experienced player on here thats played for around 3 years and he told me, perhaps somewhat in jest, that he believes that high level players have stopped helping newbies as much, because theyve become greedy and lazy. Since I have no knowledge of how things were before, I can only repeat what he told me and that I, atleast, would help these poor newbies when i see them struggling on here just to figure out where to go (or not to go) or wandering about lost without a light or trapped somewhere. Well, there you go. The only secrets I only share with my closest circle of friends are the ones that could hurt me (and -have- hurt me) if I told them to people who arent necessarily trustable (its hard to figure out whos trustable, so im sure ill keep on getting hurt from time to time, but ill live). Well, I must admit you have more interest in exploring then I do in that respect- I -have- left my hometown of Tara after mapping out all of Tara, but only because it was implied that it was safe to go to the swamp which was south of the tara gate- since it was due south, it wasnt hard to find :-p. I quickly mapped out the swamp and soon came upon an exit from the swamp that didnt lead back to the crossroads- but it was marked with the word danger or dangerous, so I marked it as such and didnt explore further down. Upon returning to the crossroads, I decided to map out all the territories to the east and west of it until I hit upon similar danger entries to areas. I did so and have now mapped out all the area around Tara thats safe for newbies (even a little territory that -wasnt- all that safe for newbies- apparently, not all entries to areas are marked with the danger label :-p.). I know I could make another character and explore other towns and their safe surroundings, but personally, I mapping out terrains isnt what I come here for- talking to people is, so thats what I try to do. Can you tell me what advantages youve garnered from learning these things alone or is that one of your secrets? If youre really serious about your beliefs this time around, youll answer this post and all its points. Otherwise, I question your seriousness on this matter. Another thing i find somewhat hypocritical of you is your attack on my quoting- presumably, it adds some tedium to the process of reading. The tedium involved is -nothing- like the tedium involved in xping for hours on end and yet you extoll xping as a virtue and my posts talking of topics that still havent been resolved as a burden? Please.

From: Jean Friday, April 23, 10:23PM

Wuss writes: Ive looked on the web page- It has a fair amount on muds in general, but precious little when it comes to things related to helping newbies on legend mud specifically- some history on the various towns, a small faq; hardly what id call pages and pages. Ive yet to meet one of these people- perhaps you can point one out to me one of these days. In any case, this isnt an issue about how one tells newbies info- it can easily be done on tells if some newbies really -would- mind hearing things on chat lines. The point Im trying to make is that newbies who -do- want help with what places are safe in their hometown, say (they cant be expected to know that Taras safe through and through, for instance) or are trying to find their way home because they dont have a light and they went out exploring a little too far.

From: Mac Saturday, April 24, 12:45AM

Hmm, I think I asked for help once as a newbie, when I was stuck without a boat. When I discovered the vampire I paid Mercenary for help with corpse retrieval. I can't imagine what newbies REALLY need help with unless they just don't think to read the help files.

From: Wuss Saturday, April 24, 01:30AM

Lesson #1 when ppl ask you to stop quoting, comply.

From: Wuss Saturday, April 24, 01:31AM

Lesson #2 Look in your inventory. Hometowns come with a map. Would've saved you the trouble of mapping Tara if you had just looked.

From: Jean Saturday, April 24, 01:26AM

Mac writes: i guess this is all in some helpfile somewhere.. they might think of it. but personally, i think they'd rather talk to a live human being who can give them answers a lot faster then that behemoth of a help file system- i mean, i've been on muds for quite some time now and i'm -still- daunted by the huge mud help file systems. Now imagine a person who's never played a mud before. Personally, I think that the main attraction to any mud, moo, etc., is the fact that there are other people to talk to. I also think from personal experience that the time you need to talk to someone the most is when you're just starting out- what an easier way for this communication to take place then under the guise of finding things out- even more so since one actually -is- finding things out, in a much faster way then one would through the help file system (unless you're a real pro maybe) and at the same time, you're establishing a relationship with someone on the mud.

From: Wuss Saturday, April 24, 01:32AM

The most important thing you learn by spending hours tackling problem on your own is that these things can be solved by yourself (most of the time) and what it taught me is not to respect those who don't do this themselves. As far as 'helping' goes, where in it didn't I make it clear that I didn't consider that as a help? What that generates are masses of idiotic players who can't hold their own when push comes to shove. This is far more apparent in PK than anywhere else -- you have people who make do with almost any char, and then you have people who can't do squat even after given the best possible char, or a highly competitive model under the current fad. Yes, given. That's what happens if you rely on others to tell you what works and what doesn't. I've personally found not many of the strategies people talk about work at all -- one, everyone else probably knows it, and two, my link, their link, my comp, their comp, my client, their client, my typing speed, their typing speed, my reading speed, their reading speed, my trust in myself, their trust in theirself, my common sense, their common sense... all of that differs. You know what happens when something you suggested doesn't work out cuz ppl are simply too dumb or hail from a totally different way of thinking than you? They fail miserably, and either hate you for it or end up having the lowest self esteem possible. Either way, it isn't worth my time. I could tell you, with so many words, that everything is easy on this mud, nothing even beyond reason -- eq, xp, anything and everything. And I have the chars to prove it -- I have had enough clanned chars that toiled what some consider not-long-enough and unclanned. I've had eq setup ranging from the oh-so-boring to what-the-hell-were-you-thinking, and i tell you now that nothing on this mud is "hard." Merely possible or not possible. But it'd be falling to deaf ears, or worse, ears that lack the brain with experience enough to understand any of it. Level to 45. Bringing a char up to a level is more than just xp, it's learning how the character works, when you can rely on certain skills with that character, what chances that character can take while others can't, what mobs are easier for that char while it shouldn't be logically, what skills work, despite what others have told you, learning to juggle equipment, and just putting in the hours. I don't know how it is with you equipment, and just putting in the hours. There's no shortcut to life, and if you are so smart and understand the system, first thing you should show is that you can be where we are. And until I see your char at lvl 45, at least, you've only shown me that you have better command of grammar than flyingfox or kurik.. oh wait, you don' know these folks.

From: Jean Saturday, April 24, 01:49AM

Wuss writes: Here, I think, is where -you- need a lesson Wuss. I gave my reasons as to why I quote in my my quoting thread. Ive now made several points that point to your own hypocrisy on the issue of quoting, but since you apprently dont read my quoted messages, youll never know and ill simply continue to lose respect for you. Look in your inventory. Hometowns come with a map. Would've saved you the trouble of mapping Tara if you had just looked.> For some reason, it wasnt in my inventory when i started becoming interested in mapping Tara. Perhaps its because that happened when my hometown with Jean was still Agrabah (I subsequently recreated). Whatever the case, I quickly learned that you could buy a map cheaply and did so. However, I -still- found myself mapping things out because although the map was fairly good, it lacked a little bit (for instance, Donnegals chamber and a few other miscellaneous room names of lesser note). It also isnt very clear on how many rooms there are in between the pig sty, say, and the tannery, going the westward route. I found all that out when i mapped it manually.

From: Mac Saturday, April 24, 02:34AM

The point is, if you're stuck, unable to get your corpse, stuck in the bog or whatever, say so and be specific. If you just say can someone help me please, you're likely to be ignored as most would suspect the person's after help levelling or something of that nature.

From: Jean Saturday, April 24, 02:43AM

Wuss writes: Sure. But its solved faster if you work with someone else on it- solved even faster if you work with someone whos already solved the problem :-p. This I dont understand. Why not? Its just knowledge- -skill- is what only time can teach. Didnt consider -what- as help? Perhaps if youd quoted, id know :-p.. Since im not sure what youre referring to, I cant properly respond to this.. This isnt something im not that concerned about, since, as you know, I dont like the whole concept of pking. These things we call luck, happenstance and skill. Ive helped out many newbies and never had this problem. Then again, Ive never trained anyone on how to pk; nor would i want to :-p. Sure, its easy. Xping is just tedious. Davien was telling me how one could level from 49 to 50 in just 15 or 16 Barneys. But Barneys are pretty dangerous, it seems. If one didnt want to run such a high risk of dying, one would probably have to kill, say, 75 mobs to get that last level? Over and over and over.. I just dont see the point in so many. Just tedious, as one struggles to get to one more level just so one can use some better eq and get a few more skills/spells/hp/mana/mv points. (base insults omitted) Perhaps one day. In the meantime, Im hoping Ill have lots more discussions on here, because this is -certainly- more interesting then xping. Ive said it before and Ill say it again- rent limits are -so- unrealistic. And ofcourse id like it changed and have made my arguments which id like to add, you -still- havent responded to (yeah, i know your excuse- i havent levelled enough- maybe youre just afraid to ponder the possibility that you spent too much time doing things like levelling). who are those people? mobs? now that ive started thinking of mobs, let me put it to you this way- what challenge is it, really , to defeat a mob? theyre given tons of extra hps, damage, etc., simply because of the fact that theyre so incredibly -dumb-. You want to spend so much time with what amounts to idiots, be my guest. Me, I avoid this until theres either no players who i know i can readily talk to or im in too much pain to interact with creatures of a more intelligent calibur then mobs.

From: Jean Saturday, April 24, 02:51AM

Mac writes: If youre a newbie, in desperation, you might just say youre stuck. In that case, Id ask where they were stuck- this works wonders, because by the ending of this, all 3 cases that I recently encountered said where they were- its just that no one listening to chat seemed to want to be bothered in helping. Itd be nice to know the percentage of users who usually have chat on, but i -know- there were a few who could have done it.. Cyanide, in the case of Infested, say. Personally, Id simply ask what theyd like help on.

From: Mac Saturday, April 24, 03:52AM

Well, just don't forget that most will be busy with something.

From: Adolfus Saturday, April 24, 03:51AM

I don't see your beef Jean. You want someone to level you don't you? My old motto was always, I won't play the game for you. I think you need to quit worrying about dying or something, go explore. If you really don't like xping you can stay at whatever level you are or find a mush or a moo. Here we place a value on being able to level. So much so that, when one is a newbie one generally whines and whines till someone finally helps them level. Which is why we generally ignore ppl begging for help. If you need help ask for it. If your asking to be leveled expect to be ignored quite a bit. If your not specific about what kind of help you need then expect for ppl to think you want to be leveled. Its just sort of the way it is, not sure if its a holdover from when it was hard to level or not, but you know what its not hard to level anymore. Sorta tedious yes, hard no. You are the one that says levels aren't important, so if there not so important stay at your level. If you change your mind, level up, pretty simple. If its just too tedious too level for you, then I think your in a pickle, cuz writing boards don't give xp hehe. I don't really do xp anymore either, just when I level up to pk level, but I do answer questions and give quest hints, which I think most ppl do if they can. You just need to figure out who these ppl are and ask them. The most fun way to learn the mud is to play it though. If you really really don't like xping though, then id suggest a mush, cuz um most times ppl here are xping. Hrm lets see, if you don't want to kill 75 of so and so mobs to level from 49 to 50, just what is it you want to do? You gonna do like pure Rp? Oh also, note how I state what your point in in what I'm saying without quoting? 5 lines to quote a simple point is entirely too much, I mean geez the board is threaded, if your replying then I just read what you quoted. Noone wants to read what they just read again, or even to have to watch it fly past on the screen and have to page back up. Also I don't see what you want rent limits raised for, or why you want to level up for either, for that matter if you really don't want to kill mobs, and if you just want to Rp and not xp you can do that with no eq at any level. As far as being able to go places, youll never be able to go anywhere till you learn the mud, not with an automapper either hehe. But Hey, if you really want to be a higher level I'm sure we can work it out so you get a high lvl char. Sure someone has an extra one lying around. Though you might be subjected to quite a bit of snickering, cuz youll have no idea whats going on.

From: Fairfax Saturday, April 24, 05:24AM

I'd think it's pretty unfair to condemn the oldbies for not helping newbies on this mud. True, many a time, a call goes unanswered for a while, but please bear in mind that the other players are here on the MUD for their own agendas, pleasure, edification, kicks etc.. much the same as everyone else. To ask for help is one this, to expect a policeman to come running everytime you get in trouble is, how should I put it, rather unreasonable. When people call for help I normall check if they're nearby, and if they're not I find myself normally not too inclined to run all over mud to meet these people, mainly because I'm not on the MUD to babysit newbies, I'm here to develop my own roleplay, character, and relationships. True, it's cold and cruel that sometimes people get ignored, but it happens in the real world as well, and while there are some of us who are nice enough and courteous enough to help out if we can, most of the time we're busy. And sometimes we can't really help.. I mean how does a surgeon help someone in the bog without making a detour to get TWO sets of a certain recalling item? If a newbie nearby makes a plea on chat I'd quite happily help if I'm not busy, and if he shows up on hunt... otherwise it's too inconvenient. This may surprise newbies, but oldbies are here to enjoy themselves and relax as well, and not play tutor. Even the PR immorts acknowledge that they can only request a player to help a newbie, and not compel them to. This is one reason I think the New Player Helpers (or what used to be called Newbie Helpers - the very change in name suggests reasons) seems to be rather quiet. They have their lives, and it is unreasonable to expect them to babysit everyone. One more thing - when newbies ask for help on chat, some do it nicer than others. "So much for Legend being the friendliest MUD" and so on is NOT likely to get anyone to help you.. not even the immorts. That's a threat, and we, being humans RL who come here to relax, do not like that at all, nosiree. Just my opinion Fairfax M.B.B.S. (Madras)

From: LadyAce Saturday, April 24, 09:33AM

I'm not on all the time, and so I may miss a lost newbie now and again, but I've (in general) seen a good level of response to newbies. I haven't seen as much "running to the rescue" as much as chat and tell -based explanations/advice/etc. Several other players have mentioned this, but just to reinforce -- sometimes the "newbies" you see asking for help are not really newbies at all. Sure, we should all be helpful in general, I think that's a healthy attitude. But when someone, for example, is berating the public because we didn't come "help a newbie" when what they really wanted was "a guide to (spellword)" before they levelled so they could get a spiffy cast level...well, that's not as likely to draw the same response as a specific "rescue" type request. Same with demands for eq. So while I agree that we shouldn't harden our hearts against the new players, there is a line between "rescue" and "walkthrough" Also, if you read the MOTD or the assorted help files (we don't write these for our benefit, we write 'em for yours, read 'em) you'll find at least enough info to ask more specific questions. You might also hear tell of the NPH -- if you're trying to get a lost newbie some help, pointing them out to an NPH'er would be a great option. -LadyAce

From: Wuss Saturday, April 24, 01:47PM

The bottom line for me is that there is nothing i've seen you do that actually gives the system a try. I don't take anything from people who talk before having done or having put enough effort in it -- I scoff and snicker at those unp wunpk ppl who have no clue what pk is about, for example. All it is for me that you're doing is that you want ppl to say "oh look, this is a smart person who shouldn't be burdened by the game but instead given a char ready-made" or something along those lines. My response to that? As if. If you don't like the game, don't play it. If you have serious objections, go through it, then tell us by pointing out exactly why and how -- I can say stuff takes too long when I have put hours behind a char and saw things for myself. I can say that something is overpowered and something isn't because I've played both sides of the game. You, however, can only say "uhm, i heard from somebody" or, "on this other mud..", or "i'm still learning!" I have 0 intention of taking anyone seriously just because they claim they are "learning." Laugh, it never ceases to amuse me how people think all knowledge can be had just by reading/hearing about it. Heck, I should stick you in a physics or chemistry lab, and that alone would show you how reading about certain procedures and knowing them differ drastically from remembering them or actually getting those done right. As far as you seeing no challenge in mob killing -- prove it. Wuss

From: Yi Saturday, April 24, 05:39PM

Maybe I'm just an old meanie, but I find that I want to help most people less and less. I didn't ask nor receive any help until I was on my third character, and only then because it was offered to me, not because I asked. And yes, my first two characters sucked. No, they no longer exist. But yes, I do feel like I know the mud better because I was forced to do some work on my own. I explored, I died to stupid mobs, I hit dts, I ran into sidheville, I ran into the bog, etc, etc. All the stupid newbie things to do, I pretty much did. But I learned from them. And ultimately, that's how you have to learn. Let's face it, there are still characters that are level 50, have been around for longer than I have, and still don't know the mud. If sitting and talking is your priority, great. Wonderful. By all means, do that. But if you're expecting to have a powerful character, that's something you're going to have to figure out for yourself. No one can teach you how to do that. Or rather, other people can make your character for you, but ultimately you're the one that's got to play it. Mmm, nifty digression I got on. But anyway, I really do think that giving newbies too much help is a bad idea, and only produces ignorant oldbies. Yi! Whee!

From: Mice Saturday, April 24, 06:29PM

Reasons I don't always offer help when someone asks for it: 1. I'm in the middle of something else. 2. I don't have the time. 3. I'm not in the mood. Who wants my bad mood rubbed off on them? 4. Player-imposed RP restrictions. 5. Spoon-feeding leads to ignorance (and that's what some are asking for) and mainly: 6. Unappreciative and impolite people. Why should I bother to go out of my way to help someone that can't be bothered to simply say "Thank you." ? I will admit to having been spoon-fed. I was one of those people who knew the spell and skill teachers, what eq did what and where to get it, what mobs you should kill at what level and for what char type, etc - and then didn't know how to play the game because it was all paper and memorized knowledge. I was bored and ignorant and didn't enjoy the game. When I took the time to learn it for myself... THEN I started to have fun and actually UNDERSTOOD the game. Until you experience something for yourself, until you learn it on your own terms you may as well just be a bunch of information without any application. Mice of Angesley, been there, knows how it goes.

From: Jean Saturday, April 24, 08:49PM

Mac writes: Ok. But some of them have the time to chat, like Cyanide, about why theyre not helping this or that newbie, say, so its not everyone.

From: Jean Saturday, April 24, 08:53PM

Adolfus writes: Well, power-levelling at my level is a welcome relief from the tediousness of killing frogs, etc. and taking forever doing it. But its never seemed too hard to find someone wholl power level me a level- the last time i asked, i was level 3- trust me, it didnt take long to get to get to 4, chuckle :-p. You cant anyways. I -dont- want to die- Xping (even with power levelling) is dull enough without having to do it some more. Ive been told that once one has the sidhe friendship, dangerous lands arent so dangerous anymore. So Ill wait until I get that. Thats pretty much what I do. However, I regret the fact that I cant explore much without danger. I found one once- the people werent half as responsive as they are here. And xping is good for those times when people dont want to talk, just xp. Im sure that theres enough different combinations of characters that one could go xping forever, with different chars. Personally, if I get to level 45, Im hoping I can become an admin, because I think thatd interest me a whole lot more to program things then to xp when I cant find someone to talk to.. The problem, I think, is that we place -too- much value on being able to level, thus the constant badgering to get help to level- note that im not one of these people; i rarely ask to get levelled, as is clear by my low level :-p. In the cases I mentioned, people did and were ignored. In all 3 cases, the requests werent about levelling at all. Yet no one went to help them. In desperation, I tried to find someone to help them, but although one person in my clan said he was on the way, apparently he didnt help after all. I heard it was -easier- to level before. Perhaps I said that levelling was hard. What i meant was that levelling is tedious. On a game, why do we have to add tedious elements to them and act like theyre great? No, but it can change things- like, for instance, making levelling easier :-). or perhaps raising eq limits (same effect). or introducing some more realistic things if nothing else (like a skinning knife for carving) so that i can feel more immersed in this environment. Ofcourse. There are different ways of playing it though. Personally, I like my way of asking questions and making comments the best or I wouldnt be doing it. I see. You think thats a good thing? (continued in next append)

From: Jean Saturday, April 24, 08:57PM

(continued from last append) Adolfus writes: I -want- to just be able to kill, say, 15 not too hard mobs for level 49 to get to 50. Basically, to be able to level with less tedium. 5 lines is too much? How much spam, precisely, do you get when you kill, say, a level 49 mob? Im willing to bet a hell of a lot. And you have to do it over and over again if you want to reach 50. Very dull stuff. Here, all you have to do is glance over/skip the quotes and get to what I said. A -lot- less tedious and the stuff Im saying is a lot more interesting, id think, then a mob hitting you x amount of times or you missing him/her y amount of times. Sure, but as I made in a point to one of Wusss messages in this thread, that doesnt mean that youll know -exactly- what this or that point is referring to. Yes, one can paraphrase to get to the point as you have, but that just makes you have to type what I already said- the most accurate description of my comments would, ofcourse, have been a quote, though in this case it didnt matter. on some highly complex issues where misinterpretation can occur, it really -can- matter though. If people would just set their screenlen to a reasonable amount (say, 23) then the flyby wouldnt happen. Personally, I just take the info a screen at a time and then copy and paste it into a word processor document. From there, I reply to the message, complete with quotes to make it faster and ensure accuracy in what they said (vs. the shorter but more dubious method of paraphrasing). Finally, when im done with all the formatting and all, I go back onto Legend and copy and paste it, around 10 to 15 lines at a time. Takes a bit of time, but, aside from a little manual copy and pasting, I hardly find it tedious. Because itd help me level up quicker, for one. Also because in real life, if someone gives you this or that item, you can use it. No such thing as rent limits there. If I was, say, a level 50 with decent 50 eq, I dont think Id have too much to fear from the great outdoors, aside from deathtraps (which, if I was playing it -really- safe, Id be able to see in advance, using the exits command). I actually dont have an automapper- pencil and graph paper are what I use. I -do- have a journey maker, but thats not much use when you dont know the lay of the land. Id be happy to have this arrangement :-). But on one condition- the high level character would have to be pk disabled. No way would i subject myself to the annoyance and yes, even pain sometimes, of having pk attempts/successes on me.

From: Jean Saturday, April 24, 09:00PM

Fairfax writes: or forever... I dont see why I still shouldnt condemn them, if helping newbies doesnt count as a major factor in their agendas- This mud seems to be doing pretty well as it is, but I think it could -really- go places if help for newbies were to be found more often. According to you. But if id had the power to help the 3 newbies that were in trouble, I would have. So im thinking its more that -you- think its unreasonable. Which, in turn, is something I dont agree with. Do I hear selfishness implied :-p? If you want to talk to friends, theres always tell no matter where you are. But relationships with old friends can wait- Ive had friends of mine go off to rescue a newbie when i was talking to them and I was proud of them. So thats supposed to make it all better :-p? No, what that makes is the massacres that weve seen in Kosovo. Hey, if a newbie is -looking- for trouble, thats another matter entirely. Ive been an oldbie on other muds and one of the primary things I found enjoyable was helping newbies out. Heck, I remember a time when i looked at a newbie and said god, you need a better weapon and running out to get one, amidst some pretty real danger. Ofcourse. What im getting at here is that I think people should be more helping with newbies at times, not that it should be mandatory. Not everyone- just a person here or there that gets lost, or stuck in some trap (as long as they werent looking for trouble or some quest item- if they are, its more complicated). Nods. None of the newbies in question did that though. In fact, one of them, Infested, thanked me just for -trying- to find someone to help him. Oh give me a break- -how- is it a threat? Its just saying how the newbie feels- not even using bad words.

From: Jean Saturday, April 24, 09:06PM

LadyAce writes: nods. As far as i know, you werent here on any of the 3 incidents I speak of. In truth, I dont even think of asking the immortals for something like a rescue, since I perhaps mistakenly take it as a given that theyll be pretty busy at almost any time. And then I think Sabella said that immortals didnt get involved IC, aside from Tad :-p. (message 28 on here). Exactly- this mud seems to be lacking in the running to the rescue department. When a guy doesnt even know much more beyond how to move around and chat and wants to know a little about his town (Infested), I think hes a newbie :-p. When a person is lost near Tara without a light (Robyn), once again, I think theyre a newbie. As for the last person, Elisa, you may be right, she might not be a newbie. She was caught in some sort of trap though- if it was so hard to get her out, people could atleast have said that id think. I agree. I agree once again. Frankly, eq is one of the -easiest- things to get on here- the problem I have on that count is rent limits, not getting eq. At the beginning, as Ive mentioned before, reading help files is the -last- thing one wants to do- at the beginning, looking for atleast one companion, I think, is the most important element. Ive typed help and been confronted with tons of info. Even after the time ive spent on here, I -dont- want to go looking through that behemoth of a library just to learn things. Id rather talk to players first- if they point me towards -specific- help files, I usually read them. Nods, something I d only vaguely heard about until very recently.

From: Jean Saturday, April 24, 09:13PM

Wuss writes: The more you speak of me not giving the system a try, the more I equate this with you should be out killing more. Am I mistaken in this equation? Yes, supposedly Im putting -no- effort in answering all these posts- it just takes up about half of my day, thats all :-p. What, like me? Ive pked before, though not on this mud. I dont like the whole idea. Did you know that the killers in colorado were avid Doom and Duke Nukem fans? Personally, I find it chilling and Im certainly not the only one whos beginning to think maybe the whole philosophy of these games being fun is messing kids up. Muds are -certainly- better then these kill everything that moves games, but still.. While I certainly wouldnt mind a having a player thats a few levels higher then my own, its not my top priority. Funnily enough, my top priority has to do with figuring out who was wrong and who was right in your tussle with Wraith. -After- that, it comes to things like the idea that I think it takes too many mob kills on average to level. And then things like higher rent limits, which is basically just another way of levelling up faster. I -have-.gone through enough to do exactly this and pointing out the things i dislike is exactly what ive done. Id like to say that Ive also pointed out some things i -do- like about this mud, which is why its my online place of choice. Why find things out again if someones already done so? Whats wrong with introducing new ideas from other muds? which i am.. as is everyone on here id think, to a greater or lesser degree, if only about the new people around. I dont think that. Skill is a type of knowledge that is -very- hard to teach. And as always, you have to have a student thats -trying- to learn. Reading and hearing about things wont teach one everything, true enough. But Im certainly not just doing that. The 2 other main things that I do on here is writing questions and comments as to this mud. Ive done far more then read about the way this mud works- ive commented and questioned the way it works. In regards to my questions, in the past ive been greatly hurt that people wouldnt bother answering just because Im quoting or some such thing- If you can spend hours xping and say its character building, the -least- you can do is scan through a little quoted text. Oh give me a break- you kill the mob with the eq, skills and/or spells that you have. In my case, I asked around to learn what skills would be best suited for my level and then proceeded to find someone who could take me to the place i needed to go to get the skill. I have yet to use any of the skills ive learned besides cooking, but Ive been on other muds with lots of skills and spells and -really- dont think this mud is that different in that regard. At present, my preferred method of levelling is power levelling, but I did level once under my own steam, as tedious as it was. I suppose there could be a challenge in killing some higher up mobs, but the fact of the matter is, its only because of their immense damage without eq/high damage resistence/high hps that theyre challenging at all- Clearly theyre not intelligent enough to know that when their hps are running low, they should run and run -fast- to a safe room if possible, or if not, to keep on running for a good while. Nevermind collecting good eq or using skills like bandage and surgery. Yes, I can see that pking would be more of a challenge. But the thought of even -virtually- killing someone just to have fun is repugnant to me. In terms of a challenge, personally I think that coming up with messages for this debate is far more challenging then just trying to kill someone- here, its not a black and white thing where the other person is wrong and must be dealt with as one could think of pking. No, here, one must have -good- reasons for downing someone in debate or it wont fly.

From: Jean Saturday, April 24, 11:07PM

in append 19, Yi writes: You make it sound like asking for help is close to a misdemeanour :-p. Not forced- you -could- have asked other players for help. As did I. I only died twice here; once while xping with a fellow newbie- i attacked the wrong mob- a prince, it seems :-p. I think I was almost wasted in one round, fled, he caught up with me and finished the job :-p. That reminds me, methinks this mud should have an assist feature, wherein you assist anyone in your group who attacks something :-). Other muds Ive been on have a feature like this anyways, tfc amoung them, and it proved to be quite useful. The other time, I was doing a quest, with aid- i looked at some viking type of woman and she fried me :-p. I think the main reason for this is that I havent gone past the danger in this direction boundaries and dont plan to until Im assured by someone who knows and that I trust that its alright for my level- i take my character life very seriously and Im not going to risk him for what I view as a dumb reason- seeing just -how- far I can go before dying. The hard and painful way :-p. Me, Im going to try to learn things by less painful measures- by asking people. I have a powerful and influential character. Just not in level :-p. Oh, I agree. I think where we disagree is how much help is too much help and how much help is too litte :-p.

From: Jean Saturday, April 24, 11:10PM

in append 20, Mice writes: Such as any old thing or something thats a pain to stop like a grouped xp run or an xp run far away from home? <2. I don't have the time.> Because you need to xp or because you have to go? <3. I'm not in the mood. Who wants my bad mood rubbed off on them?> Personally, rescuing a newbie cheers me up. However, its kind of depressing right now, because at my level, the only people id be able to rescue are people -very- close to Tara. <4. Player-imposed RP restrictions.> Define this a bit more? <5. Spoon-feeding leads to ignorance> I draw the line at some point myself- I wont go on an xp run with a newbie if i dont feel like xping at a given time, say (which is almost always, he :-p). And Im not going to try to rescue a newbie unless I know where they are, how to get there and that itd be very unlikely that Id die trying to save them or get lost with them- No point in -both- of us being messed up. Im also not going to try to get an item for them unless Ive developed a liking for them- items are hard to get and at lower levels, one doesnt need too much (and no, i -still- dont think that justifies the low rent limits for starter levels). <6. Unappreciative and impolite people. Why should I bother to go out of my way to help someone that can't be bothered to simply say "Thank you."?> true enough. but unless youve had experience with the person before, its kind of hard to tell whether theyre this way. Ofcourse, theres the teachers and then theres the practical application. School is basically the teachers and working could be considered practical application. Each has its purpose. I agree that it can be boring knowing what to do -when- you get to x or y level, but once you get there, well, personally, I value that kind of information highly. I wasnt always like this; when I started out on my first mud, tfc, I too died many times exploring around (particularly in a green dragons lair that I always seemed to wander to :-p). I was pretty ignorant of equipment and at one point wondered why my carrying capacity had gone up to 500 kg until i died and lost my eq (i must have been wearing atleast one pretty nice piece of equipment, which i lost to a certain green dragon, sigh). After these harsh experiences and the amount of time it took to get the xp back, I became determined to shy away from the costly lure of exploring uncharted territories on there (they didnt have nice warning signs like we have here). So basically, I would think that I -am- an oldbie of muds in general and Id like to go through as little newbie stuff as possible.

From: FairfaxII Saturday, April 24, 11:55PM

Okay.. let's see where your arguments come from. 1. You want the MUD to be easier, in that it'd be easier to level, and build a level 50 character. I have currently 4 level 50s, all of which were painstakingly built (one under the new system) and I'm really proud of them. It's like I'd just passed my ACCA, ICSA, MBA and PhD etc.. you get out of life what you put into it. If it were any easier to level, perhaps I'd have 10, or perhaps not be too attached to each character. I know of some people who can build pkillers, perma them, try again, perma, try another combo, perma etc.. so quickly you don't even notice that they're the same player, and could swear that they were all playing at about the same month or so. These people put a lot of time and effort into creating their characters, and if they can do it, I don't see why we can't. You claim mobkill as being tedious, yet you insist you want a big character. You claim human interaction is the most important thing here, and yet the ONLY human interaction here which requires high levels is pkill, which you of course detest. Some of the best Role players here are ridiculously small, yet are equally respected in their own fields as are the biggest pkillers about. I was shocked to meet many rp-giants and find that most of them aren't even level 30, or in some cases, 20. To claim you want to have a level 50 quick, and claim that you don't like mobkill OR pkill, and only want to chat, seems to defeat the purpose of having a level 50 in the first place. Sure, some may say "I want a level 50 so I can better serve the MUD and help newbies". You can do that at low- levels. If what you say is true, all newbies require are information, which the MUD populace is so selfish with. All we need to do is provide some guidance.. you can give guidance at level one. 2. Rent limits should be raised. At the moment, like some of the more experienced people out there have pointed out, people have more than enough rent to rent a seperate set of eq, or a chalice, or items to sell, or in some cases, two mega-weapons. I don't see how we need more rent. If the only reason you want more rent is so that little newbies can get away with using mega eq, perhaps you'd prefer the system of level limits to eq. As it is, there's nothing to prevent a level 10 from using Vlad's sword, or Cuchullain's shield, if he so desires and manages to get it. Just don't expect to be kitted out like Morphine or T-Bone at level 1. It's unreasonable to expect such an easy life in what is supposed to be a progressive character development process. You develop your RP over a period of time, in the same way you develop your stats and eq over a period of time. 3. This MUD is unfriendly. I think enough has been said on this subject. In all cases, Jean, you are defending the right of the newbie to have an easy and smooth-sailing life, while all the rest of us are trying to say is that you have to earn that smooth-sailing life. It's not so much "we did it so you have to", but more of "it's your choice whether you want to be big, and if you do work towards that goal". If I could waltz into a company as a Managing Director without running through some experience beforehand, or if I could have an MBA degree handed to me on a platter without having to study it, life would be just peachy, yes, no? Unfortunately, this is life. You remind me of my elders, like they get a new gadget/VCR etc, and can't be bothered to read the manual, and want someone to teach them, can't find it, and eventually there are two choices - either you play the VCR, with or without manual (which will determine how long before you get it working), or you give up totally on the VCR. It's be a shame to see you quit just because you found it too hard, because you have some nice ideas which I'm sure will contribute to the improvement of Legend.. but in the end how good a character Jean becomes will depends MOSTLY on how much you are willing to work to Jean's development, and not how much we are willing to work for Jean's development. FairfaxII (who forgot to log Fairfax to write this)

From: Jean Sunday, April 25, 01:57AM

(part 1 of 3) in append 29, FairfaxII writes: Id think one would learn more to pass PhDs and such :-p. Well, some are luckier then others, but there certainly is a reciprocal element in life. The point is how much time you have to spend xping to get this done. I just think that much of the time spent xping to get to 50 could be put to better use. Yeah. Theres no contradiction in those 2 wishes, despite your implication of such. Well, i wouldnt quite put it at detest, but dislike and fervently avoid would definitely be in there ;-p. However, your statement isnt quite true- Until very recently, I didnt even have sidhe friendship, so the confines of what I could explore were pretty small. Even with this friendship, Im still afraid of the new terrain I can explore, but I have a feeling im going to try to explore it.. hopefully ill know what is and what isnt the path :-). So why am i so interested in exploring? Well, exploring is one of the few things that doesnt require human interaction that i kind of like, he :-). After all, people did write all the descrips to the rooms and stuff.. a little like a story anyways. But the most important part of exploring is that ill know more territory and maybe even get to another town. That, in turn, means that Id be able to help someone in all the new territory if they were, say, lost :-). he :-). Not without a much higher risk of dying trying to help in certain situations. Actually, I didnt say the mud populace was that selfish with info, though I was a little irritated with Wuss and his secrets, he :-p. What I think almost -any- player needs on here is human companionship. Knowledge of how this mud works is certainly nice though. Not quite.. companionship isnt just a matter of guidance.. also, itd be nice to be able to explore together with a friend whos in, say, london, when im in Tara. That might require having to deal with some level 10+ aggro mobs, perhaps.. something i cant do at level 4 :-p. Sure. But I cant rescue a newbie from a place ive never heard of.

From: Jean Sunday, April 25, 01:59AM

(part 2 of 3) in append 29, FairfaxII writes: <2. Rent limits should be raised. At the moment, like some of the more experienced people out there have pointed out, people have more than enough rent to rent a seperate set of eq, or a chalice, or items to sell, or in some cases, two mega-weapons. I don't see how we need more rent.> Youre thinking high level people. I couldnt keep the 2 earrings of morrigan that I had at level.. 2 or 3, because i wanted the orb of world peace (i so disliked having to get oil over and over for my lamp- this is one area where i -definitely- wish mud time would keep up with real time- in real time, that oil would last a whole lot longer, he :-).). Thinking about earring of morrigan has gotten me thinking of another thing though- how one shouldnt kill a mob thats nice just because theyve got nice eq. Maybe I can figure out some kind of reason why Donnegals evil.. but he was so nice when he taught me that skill.. In real life, you wouldnt get everything you earned by plundering it.. Well, I heard something about merchant skills coming in that would make it easier for people who didnt want to do so much killing.. maybe thats what im looking for, he :-). No- i dislike limits on eq of any kind. The 2 muds I was on frequently before didnt even have the concept of rent in them. On one of them, eq was so hard to find that few and far between were the newbies who had that great stuff on them, though it was possible if they had -real- high up player friends. On the other, nice eq was -way- easy to get- high level players would get the tough stuff and then redistribute it to newbies they found ok- -that- was the stuff, he :-). However, what both of these muds lacked was the kind of liberal admins that this mud has. Having liberal admins is more important then any eq/xp problem ive seen. Even with the best eq, a level 1 char would still be limited in amount of skills/spells, hp, mana points, movement.. its not like a char could have -everything- at level 1, even with no rent limits whatsoever. And ofcourse, while, say, level 20 or 30 level eq might not be so hard to come by, level 40 or 50 must be- so even then, i doubt many if any newbies would be fully decked out with 50 gear even without rent limits :-p. Developing ones rp is fine, as well as the stats bit, but if a rich person in real life gave you nice stuff, thered be no rent cops saying you were over limit when you checked into somewhere to sleep :-p.

From: Jean Sunday, April 25, 02:03AM

(part 3 of 3) in append 29, FairfaxII writes: <3. This MUD is unfriendly.> I never said that. I said that people generally dont go rescuing newbies when they get lost or would like a helping hand when they just start out (not necessarily to level, but maybe -how- to level, andaras homepage, things of that nature). Life is never smooth sailing, on or off mud. What Im trying to say is that I dont think the hard part of a mud should be in levelling so much, but in building good relationships with other players (that will always be a challenge) in ic -and- ooc ways (ive never been one that likes separating offline from online too much- i kind of combine the 2). Isnt it though? To get to a high level, you want it to be just as difficult- in fact -more- difficult then it used to be.. Im doing just that- by trying to persuade people that itd be in everyones best interests to make it easier to level to 50. Not quite. Learning how to xp effectively is a -lot- easier then getting, say, an MBA and for good reason- you have to learn a lot more to get an MBA. Id also think that theres a lot less repetitiveness in getting an MBA. (Now to figure out what MBA means :-) ). This seems more like learning the commands of a mud. Ive done that well enough now. Thanks :-). Personally, I think its a combination of both and I think were all party to this, if we dont just focus on levelling here. To me, what were doing right now, discussing the mud, what we think is good about it and bad about it, is more important then something like xping will ever be. When we discuss things, I think we -all- develop in our understanding of the players on this mud and why we like things the way they are or want to change them; even whether our wishes for change or the status quo are valid or not eventually i hope (i dont care if im right or wrong, im just looking for the universal right answer, always :-) ). I doubt Ill quit this mud- i didnt even quit my former muds- i was banned from them, he :-p. When i was banned from my first mud, i did some research as to what the best mud out there was- after reading descriptions of various muds on the mud connector and trying them out to see if the mud matched my expectations of it, I came to the conclusion that this was the best mud in town, after a false start (the lack of newbie help was what made me not take to the mud at first- the second time around, i was just more persistent in getting help, he :-p). lol :-).

From: Yi Sunday, April 25, 09:50AM

First, I'd just like to point out one little thing. You're quite enamored of realism, when it suits you, which is why I find it funny that you made a stink about lanterns in one of your posts, saying that they should last more like "real time". Well...last I checked, most lanterns in the game, when full, will last around 150 game hours. Try to keep an oil lantern lit for 150 RL hours, and you'll be disappointed. Remember, keeping a lantern lit for 150 hours is keeping it lit for over 6 days. That's a long time. More realistically, oil lanterns would probably use up their oil in around 6 hours. I'm not sure of that, just a wild guess. But I know for sure they ain't gonna last no 6 days. Secondly- you don't seem at all willing to listen to other people's arguments. You're so convinced of your own correctness that every time someone tries to answer you, or explain where you're wrong, you just parry that back at them with one of your quoted answers. I won't speak for anyone else, but personally, it's incredibly frustrating to try to talk to someone who you know won't listen to you no matter what you say. Unless of course we happen to agree with you, which personally, I don't. And I don't think I will. Yi

From: Yi Sunday, April 25, 10:01AM

Oh, while I'm here. You say that leveling shouldn't be the hardest part of the mud, the hardest part of the mud should be building up relationships. Bingo. You're dead on there. And guess what? That's how it is. I can build a level 50 character in...oh...probably three weeks, if I set my mind to it, which I rarely do. But I've been here for a year, and there are 4, maybe 5 people here that I would consider ooc friends, and maybe 5 more that I wouldn't mind getting to know ooc. And also, you say that newbies wouldn't be decked out in level 50 eq. And I can tell you there that you're dead wrong. Make a newbie, slip the word to your friends "hey, it's soandso, wanna get me some stuff?" and stuff will be got. Don't forget that a lot of the "decent" eq mobs on Legend can be soloed. Not all of them, obviously, but a good enough proportion that a newbie could be really well eq-ed by even one level 50 friend. At that point, leveling would become even more of a snap than it is. Let's say, for instance, that I made a str/con char. With the eq in the game from mobs that I would consider "soloable", that char could have a decent sword, a herne's or maybe two, a few brine rings, and in general could come pretty close to oh, I dunno, at least 90 strength or so at level 1, with spiffy hit/dam. And you say that newbies won't have the same hp/mv/mana whatever as bigger chars, but here's where your inexperience with the system shows. Stats make a much bigger difference than hp/mv/mana. A -much- bigger difference. Why do you think it's such a tragedy for level 50 chars to DT? Because without their +stat eq, they're pretty much helpless. 'Kay. That's it for now. Yi

From: Jean Sunday, April 25, 01:39PM

in append 33, Yi writes: I rest my case- -game- hours only last about a minute a piece. Im hoping that they get extended to, say, real hour time.. or atleast a 10 fold increase or so. Ofcourse. But a rew rl hours wouldnt be bad. Hardly. Not only do i listen to them, but I go over them, piece by piece- theres practically -nothing- i fail to cover in a post- most people, on the other hand, simply focus on certain points in my posts when they reply, with important ommissions at times; still, enoughs going on to keep me plenty busy :-). Again, hardly, The quote is the primer- its setting the focus. My reply could be considered not just as a parry, but as a new offensive for my idea- i mean offensive as in taking the offense- challenging you to atleast come up with a parry :-). Personally, I think its the other way around that many of -you- arent listening to what -i- say. The fact that most of you dont even bother to quote, let alone paraphrase, emphasizes this point. See, youve already got your mind set on the idea that you wont agree with me. I, on the other hand, am open to agreeing to certain points, though i hardly think anyone could expect me to agree to -everything- others think, or id be them.

From: Jean Sunday, April 25, 01:43PM

in append 34, Yi writes: Oh, you know more about my relationships on here then I do, eh :-p? god, the arrogance. Just because I dont get along with many posters on here says nothing of the relationships i have out of these boards. And remember, not everyone who reads the boards posts- I -do- have friends here, if not friends who are posters. One thing though- id like to say that Im getting along pretty good with Mice now and i apologize for being accusatory in a recent reply to her here. You mean if you xp and xp til youre blue in the face. Not my idea of fun or even a productive endeavour, other then getting those levels. Another thing here- were rewarding people for killing profusely.. like in games like doom and duke nukem.. did you know that the colorado killers were avid doom and duke nukem fans? So I ask you again- do we -really- want to reward people for killing so much- of -any- mob, including quite innocent looking people mobs? Personally, I think there shoud be -negative- experience for killing good mobs. Not to mention the whole town falling on you if theres a mob witness; its certainly be a lot more realistic and healthy for us to realize that in reality, killing living creatures is done a lot less for sport then here- also, in real life, one can gain skill in killing, but aside from a little muscle and knowledge of the terrain/game you want to kill, not much else. In the real world, most of us gain things by working, not killing things.. for the few that work by killing, they make their money by selling the pelts.. a little more reality on that would be nice.. The problem here, if it could be called a problem, is that things are so easy to get. On the first mud I was on, tfc, things were so hard to get that even the highest of players was hard done by to get decent eq. Basically, almost -all- eq had random stats- no rent on anything. Good things to get on this mud, not to mention getting enough xp, was so tedious, however, that many players felt it was too much and created a new mud called realm of the wanderer (the second mud I was on). I turned to that mud when i was banned from tfc (full story at http://www.purerave.com/-shade/tfc/). On Realm of the wanderer, there was a fair amount of nice non random eq and getting a fair amount of that eq was incredibly easy for high level players , kind of like here, only there were no rent limits, so newbies could be sitting pretty if they had a high level friend :-). They said that changes would be made once they got out of test mode for the mud (at which time, all player files would be wiped), but heres to hoping they wont make getting eq as hard to get as say, tfc. In any case, I was banned from that mud as well. Its a snap right now? Hardly. Before it used to be a lot easier I hear though.. Sounds nice :-). But thatd require a lot of help from a high level char- if you have that kind of friends, why not? In real life, you could certainly move far with well moneyed friends, say. I actually knew that. The point is that hps still count for a fair amount. And you cant get nice spells and presumably good skill damage for higher aggro mobs until higher levels. Thank goodness it isnt as hard for them to get eq as it is to level or theyd -really- be in a pickle :-p. And yet, when a high level char wants to make a new char, theyve got to go through the tedium of levelling once again if they want to be able to go around relatively unencumbered by aggro mobs..

From: Stick Monday, April 26, 06:04AM

This is a game. To be more specific, it's a game that to a certain point emulates reality. However, in creating any model, you are forced to simplify, and so we find ourselves inside a world which is less than infinitely diverse, and to advance we find we must repeat ourselves. And therefore we have tedium. While killing mobs can be tedious, I hardly find the UO model more attractive. Chop some wood, carry it into town, sell it. Go back into the forest, chop down another tree, etc. Here we can at least try ourselves against constructions of a devious mind, created carefully with tools that are not inconsequential. Yes, in other words, mobs. This is a mud, a game. If you don't want to -play-, then don't. If you merely want to socialize, find a chat. If you merely want to explore without any risk of losing invested time, read a book. (On the same subject, try grouping while xping. Killing solo can often be more efficient, at least for experienced players, but it is all the more boring.) I like this game. I like the game itself, and I like many of the people I've met here. I even like to dislike some of the people I don't like. But in the end, I play here because it is a selfish action. I play when -I- want to, I play with who -I- want to (if they want to play with me) and if I help someone, it's because -I- want to. I don't come here just to be at other people's disposal, to help them whenever they need help, I come here for almost purely selfish reasons and you know - it doesn't make me a bad person. I'm even GM of the NPH - New Player Helpers - and it still doesn't make me a bad person. Most specifically, ignoring someone who asks for help over chat doesn't make me come anywhere close to the people driving the albanians out of Kosovo. Stick, who is an avid fan of Duke Nuke'em but has yet to go berserk with automatic weapons and severely dislikes the comparison between mobkill and the Colorado incident.

From: Stradivari Monday, April 26, 12:38PM

I am sad to hear that someone is implying that Legendites, in general, are not helpful to newbies. On the contrary, the players of LegendMUD are quite helpful and friendly. However, one rarely hears about their good deeds. Instead, one hears complaints about certain incidents, which are then used to support statements such as: people here are unhelpful and their behavior is shameful. Many players help other players of all proficiency, new and old. In addition, they take the humble approach to helping others: they help without a desire or need for recognition. Unfortunately, due to such actions, Legendites are continually accused of being unhelpful, unfriendly, and quite rude. So, if someone inquires for help in an inn, and another player generously offers help, should that player announce on a public channel that he or she has helped someone? No. Most players that have been ignored, in my experience, bring it upon themselves. They do this by being demanding, by not being appreciative, and by disrespecting simple etiquette (such as not spamming others). Sometimes, players are just not in the mood to help others. One can only do so much at once. If someone has committed to an activity with someone else, it is not that easy to disengage and help a newbie. For instance, Shadow Lands. Yes, a few newbies are looked over, and some even leave our domain with negative feelings. No, it is not fair to newbies. However, I have still yet to meet someone so helpful that they are always at the assistance of others. People have personal desires and need personal time. It is only unfortunately that some newbies are ignored. But it would still be a stretch to say that the players of LegendMUD are unhelpful. I can better speak for my former clanmates of NPH and myself. We tried our best to help players and to motive others to help players via positive means. Hiya, buddy, this newbie needs help re-eq'ing. Wanna join our group? Hiya! I gotta run. Could you please explain the difference between con, dex, and str weapons to this newbie? It is quite simple. The question is: are you going to help players or complain that players are unhelpful? A negative approach to a problem usually generates negative actions and results. Nobody really benefits from accusations and complaints. People only become defensive, more agitated, and less friendly, which causes the rift between players to increase when we want it to decrease. I am not going to persuade my fellow Legendites to be more helpful and to motivate others to help. They already are becoming more helpful. It is unfortunate that others do not see it. Stradivari ... unarchived for a little bit. P.S.- Hehe. NPH prolly wants some answers. =P

From: Jean Monday, April 26, 07:12PM

(part 1 of 2) in append 37 Stick writes: Sure. But we -can- reduce some of that tedium, just like we do in real life, with computers, for example. Thats a realistic way of gaining muscle/str anyways. Personally, I prefer stat quests for that though, if only because some tedious parts of realism we can do without on a mud. You lost me on this tools thing.. I do want to play. I just think that there should be some improvements. Chat rooms dont have as sophisticated environment- not to mention bossy ops. You dont play a time in a book. I always risk something. When i post on here and disagree with most people on here, im risking a lot. possible friends, for one. Only one thing would make me risk that much and that is the desire to make something better then what it currently is- this mud, say. <(On the same subject, try grouping while xping. Killing solo can often be more efficient, at least for experienced players, but it is all the more boring.)> Thats certainly true. Ive only levelled once ungrouped. However, I still find that it takes too long to level, even when power levelling. chuckle :-p.

From: Jean Monday, April 26, 07:18PM

(part 2 of 2) in append 37 Stick writes: <..in the end, I play here because it is a selfish action. I play when -I- want to, I play with who -I- want to (if they want to play with me) and if I help someone, it's because -I- want to.> Certainly. I think what should be more defined is the definition of self and what is a good definition of self and what is not. Personally, my definition of self includes pretty much everything on this planet. Sure, my main girl occupies more of my thinking time then everything else combined, but the point is that its all there. So when I see someone in distress, my natural reaction is to try to help. It gives me a lot of pleasure to help, so i dont find it a problem. Ofcourse, we must understand what i mean by distress- if, say, a newbie is lost in an unfamiliar location without a light, id say thats distress. Or theyve just gotten on the mud and dont know how to do anything, that can be pretty stressful and depressing (atleast thats the way i felt when i first got onto this mud and found help wanting). Or someones trapped somewhere and would like a helping hand to get out. It does -not- include power levelling (though id prefer levelling with -anyone- instead of just myself.. as long as they killed mobs that werent of noble nature, like, say, horses.) From my experience, its fairly rare when a newbie -really- needs help. But personally, this reminds me of a book i read by kurt vonnegut jr.- the sirens of titan; in the ending, after a guy had been all upset that hed been used and all, a woman said what i found to be one of the best lines ive ever heard- better to have been used then to have been useless. Thinking about it, I found that being useless must be perhaps be the worst feeling on earth. So yes, watch out from being used, but take even -more- care that youre not useless to others as well, or you may find yourself wanting in what amounts to a type of love. Would you have helped the people i mentioned above? Because if you wouldnt have, I question whether you should be GM of what purports to be a helper of newbies. Never said it did. Ofcourse you would. What fan of Duke Nukeem would like that type of comparison made? And yet, and yet.. Its not the game, I think, but the philosophy behind all those types of games, including, i argue, so much xping- that one gets rewarded for killing. Heck, Ive known people compare pking to sex. Personally, I think its time that more realism is added in terms of consequences- the world isnt a bunch of demons needing to be shot at- theyre people- in the case of the colorado killers, boys and girls of a young age. Until the whole philosophy that glorifies violence is put to rest, I doubt well have any rest in our society.

From: Deirdre Monday, April 26, 08:03PM

This gets more and more tangled--- You don't seem to mind killing for xp in general. However, having to kill often or in great numbers to gain xp, you liken to school shootings and ethnic cleansing. If you're seriously opposed to killing, don't play a mud. You may argue that killing isn't the most important part of a mud-- and it's a debateable point--but at some basic level, what separates a mud from most other types of M--'s is the fact that you have a means with whic which to kill, and to thereby increase in power. If having to kill to become more powerful bothers you, take some advice, and find a decent moo or mush. If you believe that computerized violence is wrong on any level, you have to believe that it's wrong on every level. Killing a little isn't morally better than killing a lot. Likewise, killing mobs on a mud isn't any morally better than killing those pig cops in Duke Nukem. Anyway, I'm not exactly sure what your whole computer violence point was, so I'll move on. Oh, without trying to fight someone else's battles for him, I'd just like to say that your questioning Stick's competence to run the NPH is really ludicrous. Lastly- you mentioned that the tragic case of the poor lost newbie and how stressful and depressing it is. Get over it. It's something everyone goes through at least once. It's well and good if someone runs over and helps the newbie, but if not, well... Daylight is never more than 10 mud hours away. Let me put it simply- no one on this mud has any sort of moral obligation to help newbies. We simply don't. Getting a light or a recall potion to a newbie may give some people the warm fuzzies, but not to everyone, and not all the time. I'll admit it, most of the time I simply can't be bothered. I come here to further my own twisted, mass-mob-murdering agenda, and to talk to my friends, and to have some fun. If helping a newbie fits in there somewhere, then I'll do it. If not, then I won't. Do I feel guilty about that? Nope. Did I feel bad when you laid that guilt trip down on the mud for not helping newbies? Still nope. It's a shame if being lost makes some newbie stressed and depressed, but hell, we're all here because we want to be, no one's forcing us, and if being lost bums someone out that much, maybe they should rething why they're here? After all, there are going to be things that are going to be much bigger drags than being lost for a little while.

From: Jean Monday, April 26, 10:36PM

(Part 1 of 2) in append 38, Stradivari writes: Ok, I admit it, it was 2 incidents that got my attention. The first was my own treatment when I first got on here and the second was the 3 incidents, happening in close conjunction, of Robyn, Elisa and Infested all needing important help, as Ive mentioned before, and getting none, despite my best efforts to secure some for them. As I mentioned above, it was the fact that no one was helped in the above list for atleast a good while (in Robyns case, she must have found her own way back or been killed, because the next time i saw her (long time from original time) she seemed to say that no one helped her. that got to me, not the fact that people werent announcing they were helping them (didnt seem like there was anything to announce this time). Also, the attitude that Cyanide showed, saying that newbies shouldnt be helped in the ways i mentioned got to me. In the cases i mentioned, I dont think that was the case- for one, Infested was brand new to this mud. Robyn was pretty new as well it seemed and as for Elisa, no one mentioned her being demanding, though Cyanide had plenty of time saying how all of you experienced players shouldnt help. Ofcourse. But in that case, one could atleast announce that one is busy at the moment and could help later. And there were -so- many people on, compared to these 3 people who needed help, im sure others could have helped if theyd wanted to.

From: Jean Monday, April 26, 10:36PM

(Part 2 of 2) in append 38, Stradivari writes: Agreed. nods. I wouldnt meet that bill myself, true enough- xp runs do call for non help at times. Not all players, no. I was referring to players like Cyanide and Wuss who think it builds character when newbies are left to fend for themselves lost without a light or trapped. I help pretty much- even when I cant help personally, Ill usually say so, just to let the newbie know that their voice hasnt gone unheard. Furthermore, Ive tried to get help for the aforementioned newbies by asking others to help (I couldnt help any of them, since they all involved a type of search and rescue). To no avail, apparently, but I certainly tried. One does if it exposes players close minded selfishness. Not necessarily. Today, my little sister called me a hypocrite for extolling the virtues of not eating things like chocolate and then eating some of her chocolate chip cookies. She was right and i claimed no contest. I could have explained in further detail why Id munched on the cookies, but she didnt want that, so that was that. Perhaps that is the case. Ive been here too little time to tell the difference. All Im saying is that I think they should be more helpful as a whole then they currently are (id think that most if not all NPH players are already helpful enough).

From: Jean Monday, April 26, 11:16PM

(Part 1 of 2) in append 41, Deirdre writes: Well.. in the sense that hunting will help you get better at hunting, no. Actually, I never likened it to ethnic cleansing. That was in reference to an idea for a way of doing a mud- for instance, that we could have a new era, called the modern era, which would be pretty much present day, complete with types like milosevic. You could then join the KLA, NATO or, well.. that would be controversial, but maybe even the Serbs (after all, they have a story to tell too, even if theyre not right). As we all know, mud killing isnt real. Whats more, im not a vegetarian, so things -are- killed for me to eat (even if i dont do the killing). However, Ive made my feelings known about killing innocent looking creatures or human mobs. Ofcourse, whether a mob is or isnt innocent can be open to interpretation.. But it just feels wrong when people kill everything in Tara- it -does- seem something like ethnic cleansing, now that I think of it. I justify power levelling in the dun with the idea that the monarchy is corrupt and so are all the guards and should be put to the sword, but im somewhat dissatisfied with this- I mean, where is the looks of a rebellion, for instance? Cant see it.. Thats not true. Violence can be taken to extremes- there was a rather amusing song saying how we were cruel to plants, say. If we dont atleast kill plants to eat, were dead. And Im not even a vegetarian. True, as long as youre killing the right things. But as long as youre killing the right things, its not about morals, but about tediousness. The whole point was that I think that we live in a society that rewards violence too much in fantasy worlds- sooner or later, it spills out into the real one, with tragic consequences as we all saw recently.

From: Jean Monday, April 26, 11:16PM

(Part 2 of 2) in append 41, Deirdre writes: I questioned it on the conditional that he wasnt helping much. If hes pretty helpful with newbies, then hes fine i would think. You really would like me to, wouldnt you? Why, exactly? Surely, you must spend tons of hours xping. Why not a little time to talk of how this mud treats its newbies in general? Im hoping that will change. Someone could have told the newbie that (id forgotten). In any case, daylight did come- the newbie was still lost, though and in potentially grave peril. I suppose most people just cant be bothered helping the wayward newbie- they need more xp or money, supposedly. At level 6 and after only playing on this mud for a few weeks, however, I find -plenty- of time to help newbies. What does this say of others morals in comparison to mine on this issue? Ok- if one is very upset over something, I grant you thats a good reason. But otherwise.. well, as I said above. Well, to each their own. Just dont expect me to respect you for those actions. One could say that about life too- most of us could probably find some way of killing ourselves. So yes, youre right, we all could just leave this mud, our lives, whatever. I was just hoping people could care enough to want to no want that to happen and to take steps to prevent it from happening. Some do. Others, like you, may not. Like dying and having to re-equip/regain xp Id guess. In those cases, too, I hope that people help. And yes, its all up to a person and their morals- ill just hope that those morals are good ones.

From: Deirdre Tuesday, April 27, 08:41AM

I don't come here for your respect, Jean. And I certainly don't see what the hell right you have to judge here. Get off your damn high horse.

From: Jean Tuesday, April 27, 07:03PM

in append 46, Deirdre writes: Well, there you go then. Everyone judges Deidre. Sometimes privately, sometimes publicly. Certainly, many people have judged me. Hey, I like my high horse. And the view is nice too..


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